Suburbs are unsustainable?

[detr0itkid]

If a family making [[dare I say just) 100k it would be very difficult to send two or three kids to private school for their entire education. Problem number one is, if you have two or three kids, that means minimally $30,000 of your income is going towards their education, but that isn't the bigger problem.

The biggest problem is, until those kids are in high school, someone is going to have to be driving them to school. Based on the fact most people need to get to work by 7:30-8 AM [[same time school starts), it probably means that mom or dad are going to have to quit working just so that they can drive the kids all the way from Detroit to their Suburban school. Not all of us are Monica Conyers and can just force the Detroit Police to escort our children in armed Suburbans. This means, that 100k would have to be made on a SINGLE income, not dual-income.

In order for Detroit to lure FAMILIES, one of two things would have to happen, a rise in really great private education -- perhaps reestablishing Detroit Country Day closer to the city limits or a Roeper or Cranbrook "Detroit Branch". The other thing, and frankly the one that would be ideal, is that DPS needs to get their act together and make their schools safe, effective, and turn them around.

I agree, but there are good private schools in the city, plus anyone can make it work if they want to. I went to Gesu, and U of D, both good private schools in the city for under 10k per year. Plus private suburban schools do have busses. I went to liggett for middle school and I just got dropped off for school a half hour early and took that time to do homework. If my parents couldn't take me I would take the liggett bus from my side of the city. Plus there is a lot of carpooling between city folks who attend Cranbrook and DCD.
And I'll admit that I saw it as two parents two kids rather than 1 parent 3 kids. But either way it is not unworkable.

[LodgeDodger]

I must live in a fairytale land suburb, I can walk and get 90% of my daily needs meet. I don't live in a planned community either.

Same here. If I ride my bike, there's nothing I can't have.

[LodgeDodger]

You got that from me pointing out the problems with suburbia? This city vs. suburb thing is all in your head. There is only one Detroit, and that is it's people. If you live in Metro Detroit you are a Detroiter.

I'm as much a Detroiter as you, DetroitDad.

[Det_ard]

Fairly soon automotive technology will progress to the point that a typical car, an advanced lithium-battery plug-in hybrid, will average 100 MPG by running on electricity and then gas/diesel. The Volt is basically there. Others will certainly follow. In 10 - 15 years the technology powering our automotive fleet may be stunningly efficient.

The electricity will increasingly come from renewable or other non-petroleum sources. So if gas quadruples to $10/gallon, but MPG also quadruples from 25 MPG to 100MPG, the cost to drive remains the same. This is a pretty reasonable scenario that runs counter to the "unsustainable suburbs" theory.

Infrastructure replacement costs will be a drag on the suburbs and on the cities. The cities may have lower per capita costs due to a more compact layout but the suburbs generally have more money per capita to allocate to the issue. Infrastructure costs may end up being a wash.

For every person who craves the external stimulation of a central city, there's another one who desires the typical suburban attributes of low crime, good schools, convenient retail, etc. [[And more house for the money in the suburbs, in most regions, Detroit is a notable exception.) Even if costs for suburban living increase relative to city living, in our region's history shows most people are willing to make the financial trade-offs necessary to live in the suburbs.

Put me down as a "sustainability" skeptic.

[Mackinaw]

Well, the preliminary question was why live in Detroit, not why live in an urban/walkable area.

There are plenty of "suburban" communities, even in Michigan, where you can walk to get what you need, in a reasonably safe and beautiful setting, and probably enjoy more diversity than Detroit. A good handful of suburban places have more of these endearing qualities than the current iteration of Detroit, sadly. Being in any traditional urban realm is what's most important to me. To me, you're nuts if you have to get in a car to get a quart of milk. But I also think that we all should live within walking distance of our jobs, so hey that's me.

But as to why the "average joe" should live in Detroit... well, it's cooler. it's closer to most of SE Michigan's 'redeeming qualities' [[e.g. things that are unique about it that other metros don't have, because every metro has suburbs like most of ours...). it has distinctive neighborhoods. it has Eastern Market. it has housing options other than the ubiquitous single family detached home.

i mean, when you ask this question, it's really a matter of what people envision when you say "Detroit." The people who want to give the standard negative answer envision some bombed-out corner or that last place they got spooked. The people who say "it could happen" envision downtown, Corktown, Eastern Market, Lafayette Park, West Village, Indian Village, Palmer Park, East English, Rosedale, or whatever strikes their fancy. The reality is, we need to get over our blanket statements and be real...awknowledge the facts...examine your living environment and think about why you like it...look at the small-scale. If, say, Indian Village is the neighborhood you've always envisioned yourself living in...even with your family...why say no? why make excuses? Don't imprison yourself somewhere you don't feel right, be it another City neighborhood or the suburbs.

I've begun to see this as a very negative area, full of can't-do attitudes, and I think it's why civic pride lacks and why the masses have bailed on Detroit for good. Sure, it's underpinned by an extra-bad case of city loathing, but there really is a collective attitude problem that we can tie to the lack of critical mass in Detroit. I think it can be addressed by wiping the slate clean, refraining from writing off an entire massive city due to perception and stereotypes, and being fairer in assessing what we need/want and whether the city of Detroit, or any urban area, can provide it better than our banal, resource-consuming suburban landscape.

[reddog289]

Flipping through this thread, One thing caught my eye.I think I could get 90% of my daily needs in my "Suburb" which is a City anyway and once was a large one in the western suburbs.Heck I can even walk to work if I want to.My city at one time had its own waterworks.If it needed to it might once again.
I will have to read this whole thing one day.Maybe some more old mall pix might show up.

[detr0itkid]

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight these are exactly the things that makes someone have a better education. please explain what lafayette coney island has to do with "life education"?



Where did those kids get shot at again just a couple of weeks ago? I guess part of the whole "sense of spirit and community" involves offing each other in the street.

Some of the people on this board need to get a grip on reality.

Laffayette Coney is a tradition and a piece of history. Every time you go there there are people who are so excited to have lafayette for the first time is a long time. And there are people reminicing over the past and I think that has value.


I'm talking about moving downtown, not moving to Joy and Southfiled. There are a lot of areas in the city which I would not recomend living or even going to for that matter. I'm talking Corktown, Woodbridge, Brush Park, New Center, Lafayette parrk, Indian Village, West Village, Eastern Market, Midtown, Business District, Mexican Town. These are all good because they are downtown. I certaintly agree that 15 and southfield is a better option than joy and southfield, and that 15 and gratiot is better than 5 mile and gratiot.

[detr0itkid]

Some of the people on this board need to get a grip on reality.

I've got a grip on reality, Detroit is a large city and there are a lot of unsafe areas, I understand that. But you need to understand that downtown is not some post-apoclyptic war zone.

[rajdet]

Because Im only 17

Sorry French, my bad. I thought you were older.

[313WX]

and that 15 and gratiot is better than 5 mile and gratiot.

There is no 5 mile and gratiot.

[mwilbert]

This entire thread is kind of beside the point. Detroit is unsustainable, as are the suburbs, as is America, as is the world as a whole. At some point, things will change--that is what unsustainable means--and while I would expect that it would be easier for Detroit to move to a sustainable model than Canton, I don't know that for certain. Transportation should be more efficient in Detroit, but that isn't all there is to it.

The original example of an middle-income family of four moving into Detroit is fairly irrelevant because that is the last demographic you would expect to see attracted to Detroit [[or most other core cities, for that matter.) Detroit's relative advantages are in culture and entertainment which are less salient for this group, and its relative disadvantages are in education and crime, which are more salient. That doesn't mean some families wouldn't find it suitable to their needs, but on average those aren't the people you would expect to see in the city.

My standard rant on this subject is that if you eliminated the DPS and voucherized the school budget, you would be able to attract more families, as crime is not uniform throughout the city and there are a lot of neighborhoods middle-income families might find attractive if the education problem were not so severe, and there are a good number of families for whom a voucher would be a substantial improvement over their current suburban options.

[detr0itkid]

in bllomfield hills, we have no "life" as you put it.

1. out of all the cutural things you mentioned, my children go to them. They also go to the Ann Arbor Hands on museum, the Toledo Zoo, Franklin Cider Mill, Huckleberry Railroad, Greenfield Village, etc.

2. The ethnic makeup of most suburban neighborhoods is mixed. Sorry, but my kids know Black, White, Jewish, Gentile, Chaldean, Muslim, Catholic, Protestant. and Athiests...all in my neighborhood. What kind of ethnic diversity do you have in yours?

3. I exist for my comfort AND the betterment of my neighborhood...So why would I be better to exist for the betterment of yours.

You gotta give me better reasons than your BS....really.

1. Ok fine, you are productive and proactive that is awesome. More people should be like you. It's great that you and your kids use/utilize/apreciate the city. I also grew up attending the other places you mentioned as well, but you have to make a drive for everything, and I only have to make the drive for the suburban locations. I guess my point is that when I talk to the majority of suburbanites it's like "what did you and your kids do this weekend?" Response "They played in our above ground pool and I watched American Idol and Rock of Love" It just seems so booring/dumb/average. You are above average and I appreciate that. Also take into account that bloomfield hills is above average. Look at average suburbs; madison heights, inkster, livonia, clinton towship, allen park, mount clemens, troy. Compare them to downtown living and my response may make more sense to you. Also I did not say suburbs have "no life" my point is just that look at downtown compared to many/most suburbs is more "Alive"

2. My building,a 4 unit, has my Chinese landlord, A Jewish Couple, My girlfriend and I are white, 1 unit is vacant. North Corktown, where I rent, and own a house that I'm renovating, Is roughly 10% latino, 20% Hillbilly, 30% Black, 30% Yuppie, 10% other. And we've got a lot of homosexuals here. I'm not sure the religious make up, I'd assume moslty christian/athiest, but that's just speculation. Either way I'm sure Bloomfield hills has more groups reprisented, but we have a greater diversity as far as representation of each group present.

3. You sound like a more or less good person, and if you moved to my neighborhood It would be great, and I think you would be an asset. I'd assume that my neighborhood would not be an ideal fit for you. But you should look into Indian Village or a high rise condo right downtown. I think you would enjoy it.

My point is not BS. It is just less applicable to you than it is for average suburbanites.

[crawford]

Detroitkid, you live in Briggs, not North Corktown. Everything north of Michigan Ave is the Briggs neighborhood, but the real estate agents started calling it North Corktown because Briggs had such a tough rep.

And Briggs is NOT representative of Detroit city proper. You probably couldn't find a more unrepresentative community of the city. It was traditionally white redneck, until about 20 years ago, when the neighborhood started collapsing and getting bombed out.

Now it's a mix of everyone, as you mention, but only for a few blocks. Go a few blocks north, and it's 100% black. Go into Corktown and it's 100% white and Latino.

[NoHeartAnthony]

I guess my point is that when I talk to the majority of suburbanites it's like "what did you and your kids do this weekend?" Response "They played in our above ground pool and I watched American Idol and Rock of Love" It just seems so booring/dumb/average.

Hah, I'd like to see those suburbanites you polled. Maybe you're just hanging around boring people.

If I may ask, what do you do on your weekends that trumps activities that suburbanites perform?

[Tig3rzhark]

You got that from me pointing out the problems with suburbia? This city vs. suburb thing is all in your head. There is only one Detroit, and that is it's people. If you live in Metro Detroit you are a Detroiter.

If only everyone in Detroit could lay off the city vs. suburb thing...

[professorscott]

There are a lot of interesting and quirky neighborhoods in Detroit, and I'm glad some people are actively choosing to live there, which I don't. But the central fact is that Detroit has lost 60% of the population it once had, and continues to lose population, and loses population even when the regional economy is doing OK.

It's fine to boost the city but we must be realistic why we are where we are, and why Detroit hasn't even begun to have the rebirth most other large cities have had since the 1970s when nearly all big American cities were in disastrously bad shape. Detroit has done absolutely nothing to improve its schools, and the school boards - one board after another - are so bad they would be laughable if the results weren't so tragic. The city government continues to pretend that there are still two million people [[to justify the enormous number of city employees), and nobody seems to be able to make any dent in the still-awful crime rate.

Schools and crime, kids, schools and crime. If Detroit is going to have any hope of a rebirth ever, we will have to figure out a way to do something about schools and crime. There is more to it than that - see my posts on other threads for my frequent rants about decent public transportation, which the entire region seems to actually want to live without - but we will never get anywhere at all unless we can fix schools and crime.

By the way, I left Detroit just after my second stint as a home invasion victim, prior to which I did two rounds as a car-theft victim, and in not one of the four instances did the city respond at all. But even if I'd stayed then, I certainly would have left before any of my children were old enough for school. And I'm a Detroit booster! Imagine how a more typical person feels. I spend a lot of time in Detroit, and money, but like the vast majority of the region's people, I wouldn't consider living in the city again until they get some kind of handle on schools and crime.

[ZRX Doug]

If only everyone in Detroit could lay off the city vs. suburb thing...

No shit!
Expand that to say everyone in the FORUM [[on both sides) should lay off..they all sound like a buncha myopic idiots who buy every fuggin' stereotype that's thrust in their face.

I was born in Detroit, lived here for the first six years of my life, then moved to Famington [[township, later Hills) until I was twenty-four..Northville for a couple years after that, and then back into Detroit for the past twenty-some years..
Ya know what?
I was EXACTLY the same person no matter where I lived..I've enjoyed the same activities, treated my neighbors the same, and was pretty much treated the same by them..
Where you live is what you make of it..

[DetroitDad]

Oil is a portion of Industry, and cheap oil, created and subsidized by our government's military and covert interventions, is certainly largely if not solely responsible for the growth of Industry in the 20th Century...but again, simply because Technology requires oil does NOT make it a portion of Industry!


Just because farming got bigger and corporate with the advent of Industry doesn't make the Agriculture a portion of Industry.

Does that make sense to you?!

Good point, I think you won that debate.

BTW, I sent you something awhile ago on Facebook asking what your thoughts were on that subject, and never did hear back. Your posts are always great, thanks for keeping me thinking about what I'm saying.

Hey, who knows, maybe I'm even wrong about all this. I'm just telling you guys about what I have found, and how I came to my views, that doesn't mean I'm right. As a wise blind man once said, "I guess we'll see".

[DetroitDad]

...oooh....oooh....as I sit here scratching my crystal balls, I'm getting a glimpse of the future in a sustainable future Detroit. The automobile is verboten and we all ride around on bicycles, living butt cheek to butt cheek in high rise cramped apartrments. We refer to each other in greetings as "Citizen" since "Comrade" is such an outdated mid 20th century term.

The Amish have become the new power brokers since upscale restaurants are the domain of the priviledged few. Cabbage soup is the daily ration. Work is provided to all, as manual street sweeping is considered an honorable profession. We are under constant survailence and are happy to smile when passing the ever present telescreen.

Meanwhile, in points far to the East, young Chinese and Punjabis congregate in their renditions of 21st Century malt shops and drive-ins in the Asian version of the '57 Chevy. Proud of their accomplishments of Moon landings and space probe explorations to near-by star systems, they laugh at the former fat, lazy Americans, who are no longer fat but live a life-style similiar to the one their great- grandparents did, in crowded cities with bicycles as the sole means of transport. Out of the new found prosperity comes cultural inspiration by some late Westerner named Blian Wilson and contrary to Jimi Hendrix, Surf Music is heard again.

You've been to Greenfield Village one too many times.

[DetroitDad]

Fairly soon automotive technology will progress to the point that a typical car, an advanced lithium-battery plug-in hybrid, will average 100 MPG by running on electricity and then gas/diesel. The Volt is basically there. Others will certainly follow. In 10 - 15 years the technology powering our automotive fleet may be stunningly efficient.

The electricity will increasingly come from renewable or other non-petroleum sources. So if gas quadruples to $10/gallon, but MPG also quadruples from 25 MPG to 100MPG, the cost to drive remains the same. This is a pretty reasonable scenario that runs counter to the "unsustainable suburbs" theory.

I was reading recently that the problem with high efficiency vehicles seems to be that people drive more because they think they are compensating by having an energy efficient vehicle, and apparently a similar problem occurs in sustainable environments. If this is true, it really puts a interesting spin on the whole discussion.

Infrastructure replacement costs will be a drag on the suburbs and on the cities. The cities may have lower per capita costs due to a more compact layout but the suburbs generally have more money per capita to allocate to the issue. Infrastructure costs may end up being a wash.

The theory is that the suburbs is becoming what the city was several decades ago. I do realize that theory is highly debatable.

For every person who craves the external stimulation of a central city, there's another one who desires the typical suburban attributes of low crime, good schools, convenient retail, etc. [[And more house for the money in the suburbs, in most regions, Detroit is a notable exception.) Even if costs for suburban living increase relative to city living, in our region's history shows most people are willing to make the financial trade-offs necessary to live in the suburbs.

Put me down as a "sustainability" skeptic.

We are not sustainable, we are trying to become sustainable by choice, instead of by uncontrolled force and chaos. In all honesty, it may be past too late to actually do this.

I think everyone here agrees that Detroit is not a sustainability ideal. A truely sustainable city would have all the things you mentioned, but much, much more. Detroit doesn't have such things as a good transit system, less vacant parking lots, more urban designed buildings, more parks within walking distance of every tenement and home, good schools within walking distance of every tenement and home, and enough streetscapes that encourage walking, just to name a few.

There are other places in Michigan that are more sustainable than Downtown Detroit, and yes, some are Detroit suburbs. The main problem with these areas is that they have become so desirable that they have priced out many of the people who would otherwise like to live in them. Making the much larger greater Downtown Detroit area into one of these sustainable areas would increase supply and reduce prices to a level that is much more realistic for majority of the middle class.

As to schools, which many people mentioned, I am really lost on this subject. My on family's plan is to utilize the Preschool and Kindergarten at the Boll Family YMCA, though I haven't really looked into this yet, just been told it exists. Homeschooling and charter schools are both options, and I have been told that there is one okay public elementary school in the Lafayette Park area. The real problem seems to come when children reach middle or high school age. If your kids can get into Cass Tech than there isn't a big problem. For us this is a long time into the future, and we will see what is done with Detroit's school problems. The silver lining in being the worst is that we are getting a lot of press, attention, and help on the issue.

Then again, you guys really got me thinking lately about whether or not this is the best option both for my family, and in helping our city, state, and region.

[Toolbox]

Detroitkid, you live in Briggs, not North Corktown. Everything north of Michigan Ave is the Briggs neighborhood, but the real estate agents started calling it North Corktown because Briggs had such a tough rep.

And Briggs is NOT representative of Detroit city proper. You probably couldn't find a more unrepresentative community of the city. It was traditionally white redneck, until about 20 years ago, when the neighborhood started collapsing and getting bombed out.

Now it's a mix of everyone, as you mention, but only for a few blocks. Go a few blocks north, and it's 100% black. Go into Corktown and it's 100% white and Latino.

You need to learn the original boundaries of Old Corktown and not what is now refered to as Corktown. The Lodge and I75 created the boundries of today. There are more Maltese in Corktown than Latinos.

[Danny]

There is white family who just bought a Detroit home somewhere in the Southwest Side. They wouldn't mind if they live a moslty black ghettohood.

There is white family who just recently brought a Detroit home in Palmer Woods. They wouldn't mind living a mostly black ghettohood.

There are lots of Arabs who brought several Detroit homes in the Warrendale sub-division ghettohood. They wouldn't mind living next a black ghettohood.

There are few Mexicans and Hispanics who brought several Detroit homes in west side. They wouldm't mind living in mostly black ghettohood.

If these people think the suburbs are unsustainable for them Detroit would a great place for them to live and maybe diversify the area.

[NoHeartAnthony]

Great. Find a needle in the haystack. I don't see them coming in droves.

[jita1]

The main reason my wife and I moved out of Detroit is because of the ridiculous car insurance rates. Our rates were cut by more than half when we moved just a few miles north of 8 Mile. We have entertained the idea of moving back but to be honest, we probably would never do it unless we became wealthy enough to live in a nice condo downtown or somewhere like Indian Village. We would definitely send our future kids to private school. We were both born and raised in the D and still have love for the city. We spend money there and go to church there, but we're happy in Mad Heights right now.

[Danny]

Another thing the suburbs are unsustainable is development for a modern downtown. For years incorporated suburbs that were established after 1950s planned for a downtown area. However some planned suburban downtowns ended up the waiting list. If the modern suburban downtown was completed it might ended up like this: