Suburbs are unsustainable?

[Stosh]

Tin foil tent? Look, I don't actually believe all these things will happen, but I think it is likely that at least one or two will without proper intervention. Such a scenario could really put us in a long term depression, and be very painful for us. Remember, Detroit in economic collapse essentially caught a immune disease, when the rest of the world caught a cold, Detroit had the flu. In our current and future condition that will ring true for large portions of our entire country.

I really used to think those people were crazy too. Do the research for yourself before you dismiss me. Why am I wrong?

The Industrial Age [[there never was an Information Age) is about to be over. We used oil because it was the cheapest fuel to power a system like suburbia. Now, I always hear the argument that alternative energy will be able to be replace oil and natural gas. There is strong reason to believe that all the current green alternative energies combined could not take the place of oil in the current suburban model.

From the first portion of these quotes, it's just wishy-washy. Why bring them up if you don't believe in them? Name what you believe in then go on from there. Don't blindly quote crap and then back down on it.

Kunstler and Duany are interested in only 1 thing. Selling their books and lectures. He's noted for his hatred of the automobile, to which you probably owe your existence on this Earth. Think about it. And if the middle class goes away, so does Detroit.

The personal automobile will not disappear. What will take it's place will be a far cleaner version. Mass transit is only as good as whether there are jobs to support it. The oil model was used far before the suburbs started being built out in the 50's. The suburbs were built in reaction to overcrowding in the cities, as well as high taxes. There's plenty of blame to go around.

[Stosh]

You got that from me pointing out the problems with suburbia? This city vs. suburb thing is all in your head. There is only one Detroit, and that is it's people. If you live in Metro Detroit you are a Detroiter.

You consistently point out the evils of suburbia like a divorcee speaks about their ex-mate. And now it's all for one and one for all I supppose. I've always considered myself a Detroiter, but the powers that be seem to think I'm not. So I'm not. And until the slate is wiped clean and a financial manager is brought in, nothing will change in that arena. How's that for sustainability?

[DetroitDad]

Whoa, and I see information tied to Technology, but that directly NOT tied to industry as you say. How exactly does the price of gas affect my internet use?

If anything Information riding Technology is exactly independent of Industry...although Corporate Capitalist Industry has certainly taken full advantage of it by seeking out far and distant sources of labor and materials they otherwise wouldn't have been able to tap.


But the core of industry will learn that doing things the corporate capitalist way is unsustainable in itself, which certainly dovetails with our discussion at hand...we might be discussing merely two facets of the whole problem!

Well, it takes electricity to make it run, it takes ships, airplanes, or trucks to get them here, and it takes oil to make them. That keyboard and computer you are typing on was essentially made from compounds taken from oil. Your desk lamps probably were made from oil. Even most of the food sold in the big box stores depends upon fertilizers that are, you guessed it, made out of oil.

Our economy is based on oil. Assuming we have reached peak; when the price of oil gets too high, our economy crashes like it did last Summer. Once the economy crashes, oil use goes down, so the demand and price of oil goes down. As the price of oil goes down, use slowly goes back up and we crash again, and the cycle repeats. Each time this cycle repeats it takes out some more GDP, which means it will take less of a price hike to crash us. Likewise, there is less oil each time, so the price is a little bit higher each time.

The point we crash at is said to be around $150 a barrel, but it would be a little lower as time goes by. We will crash again, probably by next Summer. People are going to live sustainably, either by choice or by the force of nature and economics. It seems that most here will be choosing the later.

[Gannon]

Oil is a portion of Industry, and cheap oil, created and subsidized by our government's military and covert interventions, is certainly largely if not solely responsible for the growth of Industry in the 20th Century...but again, simply because Technology requires oil does NOT make it a portion of Industry!


Just because farming got bigger and corporate with the advent of Industry doesn't make the Agriculture a portion of Industry.

Does that make sense to you?!

[Russix]

Suburban life[[atleast here in Metro Detroit) is poorly connected to transit and rides heavily on the price of oil. In other cities, the inner suburbs are usually well connected with each other and the downtown, just here in Detroit we have purporsly never done this because [[insert favorite reason here). Its freedom of choice where one prefers to live in the city or the suburb. The fact is your not givng yourself much of an alternative when you live in the suburbs whereas your options scale better in the city. Can you survive without gasoline? I can. Do I care about the price of gas? Only when it sends the price of food through the roof!!!

[Gannon]

BTW, you are preaching to one of the choir-masters with this Peak Oil stuff.

I put it all up on this board three to five years ago. Probably ain't NOTHIN' you can teach me about it, and I fully believe it all to be very important warning for everyone. There may be some inflamed language to it, but largely it must be true.

Especially since the first warning came from a fellow deep within the industry who had everything to lose bringing it up to the general population! It must've been some kinda thing to discover and realize wholly...


...and with the entirety of the oil industry fighting this analysis, it is no wonder it appears that the only thing he's doing is trying to sell seminars and books!


Gotta love a fellow on a quest...

[Retroit]

"explain to me, why a family...would want to move to the City of Detroit. Explain to me what schools their children would go to. Also explain why the city is a better choice than these suburbs."

Downtown Diva, I like your question[[s). It brings to the forefront the problems that need to be solved if Detroit is going to succeed. The meandering responses are indicative of the dysfunction of the city.

So to answer your question: The reason most people move to the city is because they have to move there. Detroit has the cheapest housing and our government has been very successful at keeping and putting people into poverty. [[It is also true that some people move to Detroit because they are rich enough to afford living in the few wealthy areas).

So the city is a better choice if it is all you can afford. And you can send your kids to an open school district out in the suburbs.

If Detroit were poor and safe, it would actually be a great option. But the real problem with Detroit is that [[many of) the people living there do not believe in laws, morality, family, hard work, work ethics, healthy lifestyles, financial prudence, quality education, responsible government, pride of ownership, etc.

...or at least not as much as suburbanites.

[Ravine]

Even given the amount of nonsense I have encountered while perusing this forum, I would have to say that this thread may take the prize.
Downtown Diva posed a simple, reasonable, and clearly stated question and has been inundated with some of the most pompous, over-wrought, off-the-point bullshit I have ever seen, even here.
Some of you are so driven to out-do each other with your weighty pronouncements and I Heart Detroit pom-pom waving. Too busy with that, and too taken with yourselves, to give a goddam straight answer.

[rustic2]

Downtowndiva: Just because the suburbs are unsustainable doesn't mean the average family would want to move to Detroit. Detroit needs to be made into a decent place to live in order to give people an alternative to unsustainable suburbs.

BTY, just because I think the suburbs are unsustainable doesn't mean I dislike them. I live in one. The distant suburbs are less sustainable than the near-in ones.

The question perhaps should be, is the Detroit areas sustainable?

[Toolbox]

What suburb?

6 miles from the Detroit city limits.

[EastSider]

Even given the amount of nonsense I have encountered while perusing this forum, I would have to say that this thread may take the prize.
Downtown Diva posed a simple, reasonable, and clearly stated question and has been inundated with some of the most pompous, over-wrought, off-the-point bullshit I have ever seen, even here.
Some of you are so driven to out-do each other with your weighty pronouncements and I Heart Detroit pom-pom waving. Too busy with that, and too taken with yourselves, to give a goddam straight answer.

Well done, sir.

<golf clap>

[NoHeartAnthony]

What suburb?

Could be Ferndale, Plymouth, Farmington, Royal Oak, Birmingham, Berkley, Dearborn, Wyandotte, Allen Park, Rochester, etc.

By the way, I could do the same thing and I live 2.5 miles from the city limits. Lets not paint all suburbs as being Levittowns.

[Gannon]

He didn't say WITHIN six miles.

So that would eliminate Dearborn, Ferndale...even Royal Oak.


Six plus 8 Mile Road equals Fourteen Mile Road to the north...Telegraph plus six miles on the west yields a few more...Alter plus six miles to the east puts you in the water...

[BShea]

Mankind seems to have sustained for this long. He'll continue to do so, I imagine. It might be in big cities; it might be in little grass huts. But it's about civilization sustaining, not lines on a map, no?

We evolved, overcome and adapt. The humans matter, not the maps and structures.

Just MHO.

[313WX]

If Detroit had the best school system in the state, and a world class mass transit system, would we even be having this discussion?



French, why do you choose to live in Rochester Hills?

French is still in high shcool and living with his parents. He virtually has no choice.

[gazhekwe]

Why would I move to Detroit, and what would I consider? I think that was the original question.

I live in a suburb that borders on Detroit. It is sustained largely on property taxes and office occupancy, both of which are going down in this current economy. One thing about it that bothers me is the unwalkability of the place. Nothing is less than half a mile and grocery shopping is two miles or more in either direction. When we moved here, we were looking for stable schools and some relief from urban noise. Our Detroit neighborhood had become inhabited with night owls who kept big barking dogs in their yards 24/7 for safety. We got a lovely home and yard in a wonderful neighborhood. It's nice and quiet, but friendly.

Why would I move to Detroit? Maybe I want to be closer to the River and Eastern Market, and good old WSU and the Cultural Center. Maybe I am tired of having two or more cars, and taking care of a big yard. Maybe I find out that Condo prices in Detroit are more reasonable than suburban prices, and there are some really edgy new properties to choose from. Maybe I want to find a place where I can walk to shopping, dining and entertainment.

Well, the nest is empty and I don't need to worry about schools unless the grandkids start arriving at my door for care. Taxes here and in Detroit are comparable, but we have much better services, so far. Things might be getting a bit dicey these days as revenue goes down. We have curbside recycling vs. once a month remote recycling.

I have not seen an area where the houses I like are near enough to any shopping areas that I would consider it walkable. The bus system to me is a bit scary, but I believe using it would clear up that problem for me, as I learn/relearn where the different lines go and when. I think I could choose either midtown or southwest Detroit and find the kind of neighborhood I like. Somewhere near La Colmena, or E&L would solve my shopping problems. I might like the SW Detroit idea, as more walkable for my dog and me, with houses and yards instead of concrete. I could have a fenced yard for my dog, which she would love. There are lots of shops and restaurants within a relatively small area which makes for walkability as well.

My house is paid for, so if I were able to sell it and buy in Detroit free and clear, there would be no change in housing costs. Car insurance would go up, but I might be able to do with one less car. I think the homeowners might go down as we are still operating on inflated values where I live now. Commuting costs would go up for hubby who works only two miles from the house. All in all, for this empty nester, it's a 50-50 proposition.

[softailrider]

What suburb?

Royal Oak, Ferndale, Birmingham are three that come to mind at the moment. If you live close by to downtown you could get by without a vehicle.

[Sludgedaddy]

...oooh....oooh....as I sit here scratching my crystal balls, I'm getting a glimpse of the future in a sustainable future Detroit. The automobile is verboten and we all ride around on bicycles, living butt cheek to butt cheek in high rise cramped apartrments. We refer to each other in greetings as "Citizen" since "Comrade" is such an outdated mid 20th century term.

The Amish have become the new power brokers since upscale restaurants are the domain of the priviledged few. Cabbage soup is the daily ration. Work is provided to all, as manual street sweeping is considered an honorable profession. We are under constant survailence and are happy to smile when passing the ever present telescreen.

Meanwhile, in points far to the East, young Chinese and Punjabis congregate in their renditions of 21st Century malt shops and drive-ins in the Asian version of the '57 Chevy. Proud of their accomplishments of Moon landings and space probe explorations to near-by star systems, they laugh at the former fat, lazy Americans, who are no longer fat but live a life-style similiar to the one their great- grandparents did, in crowded cities with bicycles as the sole means of transport. Out of the new found prosperity comes cultural inspiration by some late Westerner named Blian Wilson and contrary to Jimi Hendrix, Surf Music is heard again.

[detr0itkid]

Many times on this board, I have read about the bad side of living in the suburbs....

one person says that the majority of the suburbs are unsustainable
a couple people claim that the suburbs are a bunch of parking lots, malls, etc...
still other people claim that the burbs are "vanilla"

so here's my question...and I am not trying to be a smart ass....

explain to me, why a family of four, making over 100,000k per year would want ot move to the City of Detroit. Explain to me what schools their children would go to. Also explainwhy the city is a better choice than these suburbs.

I don't see it, but I am willing to listen to these benefits.
.

If you are making over 100K you can send your kids to private schools. There they will get a better formal education. Living in detroit will give them a better life education through proximity to DIA, Belle Isle, Heldelberg Projects, Childrens Museum, Majestic Complex, Hydroplane Races, The Tigers, Redwings, WSU, Mexican Town, the thanksgiving day parade, Fireworks, City Fest, Dally in the Alley, Opera House, Hamtramck, lafayette coney, historic archetecture, eastern market.... etc. And most importantly you will be raising your kids with the children of other people who have both a sense of spirit and community. Other folks who are raising their kids downtown are concerned with the city's future and betterment of themselfs and the city rather than just existing in comfort. I feel this is a better group of people to be raised around. Not to mention that growing up in the city and being active in the city you meet not only a diverse group of peole from the city, but you gain exposure from folks coming in from of the suburbs to take advantage of all of the citys avtivities. This is how I was raised, and how the majority of my friends were raised and I feel we are all better off for having been raised in a fully engaged, involved manor.
That being said I sometimes think about how much easier suburban living would be. But I think the extra exposure to "Life" is compleetly worth it. And will be raising my kids downtown for sure.

[Detroit500]

If a family making [[dare I say just) 100k it would be very difficult to send two or three kids to private school for their entire education. Problem number one is, if you have two or three kids, that means minimally $30,000 of your income is going towards their education, but that isn't the bigger problem.

The biggest problem is, until those kids are in high school, someone is going to have to be driving them to school. Based on the fact most people need to get to work by 7:30-8 AM [[same time school starts), it probably means that mom or dad are going to have to quit working just so that they can drive the kids all the way from Detroit to their Suburban school. Not all of us are Monica Conyers and can just force the Detroit Police to escort our children in armed Suburbans. This means, that 100k would have to be made on a SINGLE income, not dual-income.

In order for Detroit to lure FAMILIES, one of two things would have to happen, a rise in really great private education -- perhaps reestablishing Detroit Country Day closer to the city limits or a Roeper or Cranbrook "Detroit Branch". The other thing, and frankly the one that would be ideal, is that DPS needs to get their act together and make their schools safe, effective, and turn them around.

[Downtown diva]

All the suburbs are unsustainable when Detroit cuts off their water.

Sorry, Downtown Diva, I didn't want to put too much effort into responding to your anti-CoD trolling.

Anti City of Detroit?

Who do you think you are talking to?

I own more houses in the City of Detroit than you ever will.

I just happen to believe that it is not one or the other like you. While I live in the Vanilla Burbs, I dont find a need to denegrate the city to make my decision a better one. I think you all are comical with your "my city is better/more sustainable than yours" bull$hit.

[Gannon]

I own more hoses in the City of Detroit than you ever will.

And this hose collection yields you exactly what authority and excess depth of wisdom?!

[Downtown diva]

If you are making over 100K you can send your kids to private schools. There they will get a better formal education. Living in detroit will give them a better life education through proximity to DIA, Belle Isle, Heldelberg Projects, Childrens Museum, Majestic Complex, Hydroplane Races, The Tigers, Redwings, WSU, Mexican Town, the thanksgiving day parade, Fireworks, City Fest, Dally in the Alley, Opera House, Hamtramck, lafayette coney, historic archetecture, eastern market.... etc. And most importantly you will be raising your kids with the children of other people who have both a sense of spirit and community. Other folks who are raising their kids downtown are concerned with the city's future and betterment of themselfs and the city rather than just existing in comfort. I feel this is a better group of people to be raised around. Not to mention that growing up in the city and being active in the city you meet not only a diverse group of peole from the city, but you gain exposure from folks coming in from of the suburbs to take advantage of all of the citys avtivities. This is how I was raised, and how the majority of my friends were raised and I feel we are all better off for having been raised in a fully engaged, involved manor.
That being said I sometimes think about how much easier suburban living would be. But I think the extra exposure to "Life" is compleetly worth it. And will be raising my kids downtown for sure.

in bllomfield hills, we have no "life" as you put it.

1. out of all the cutural things you mentioned, my children go to them. They also go to the Ann Arbor Hands on museum, the Toledo Zoo, Franklin Cider Mill, Huckleberry Railroad, Greenfield Village, etc.

2. The ethnic makeup of most suburban neighborhoods is mixed. Sorry, but my kids know Black, White, Jewish, Gentile, Chaldean, Muslim, Catholic, Protestant. and Athiests...all in my neighborhood. What kind of ethnic diversity do you have in yours?

3. I exist for my comfort AND the betterment of my neighborhood...So why would I be better to exist for the betterment of yours.

You gotta give me better reasons than your BS....really.

[Downtown diva]

And this hose collection yields you exactly what authority and excess depth of wisdom?!

I guess i could have said

I own more Ho's?
I own more Hoses or
I own more HOUSES....which is what i meant....

Thanks for the correction G-Dog.

[LodgeDodger]

Because Im only 17

Slacker! ;-) Boy, when I was your age...