Excellent Common Sense Blog about Detroit Bankruptcy in NY Times

[401don]

"...Detroit’s most serious problems are confined to the city limits. Elsewhere in the metropolitan area, there is ample economic activity. In suburbs like Bloomfield Hills, Mich., the median household income is more than $125,000. A 45-minute drive from Detroit is Ann Arbor, home of the University of Michigan, one of the world’s pre-eminent hubs of research and knowledge production.

Detroit’s travails arise in part from a distinctive aspect of America’s divided economy and society. As the sociologists Sean F. Reardon and Kendra Bischoff have pointed out, our country is becoming vastly more economically segregated, which can be even more pernicious than being racially segregated. Detroit is the example par excellence of the seclusion of affluent [[and mostly white) elites in suburban enclaves. There is a rationale for battening down the hatches: the rich thus ensure that they don’t have to pay any share of the local public goods and services of their less well-off neighbors, and that their children don’t have to mix with those of lower socioeconomic status...."

Full Article at:
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=newssearch&c d=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCsQqQIoADAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fopi nionator.blogs.nytimes.com%2F2013%2F08%2F11%2Fthe-wrong-lesson-from-detroits-bankruptcy%2F&ei=SNoIUtCCMYX22AXS_oCADw&usg=AFQjCN FJUIzq9toa7cX3hurGHSFUzFRGNw&sig2=bW1DjGUWIC7_yZjn OCzcZQ

[sumas]

Thank you for sharing that article. I don't agree 100% BUT 98% is pretty good

[Wesley Mouch]

Thank you for sharing that article. I don't agree 100% BUT 98% is pretty good

Yes, pretty good. Few reporters out there look at this divide between City and region. People who haven't been to Detroit do not understand that distinction.

Detroit is the example par excellence of the seclusion of affluent [[and mostly white) elites in suburban enclaves. There is a rationale for battening down the hatches: the rich thus ensure that they don’t have to pay any share of the local public goods and services of their less well-off neighbors, and that their children don’t have to mix with those of lower socioeconomic status.

There's no doubt that there's a separation. What this reporter misses is that the separation is mutual and voluntary.

[Detroitnerd]

There's no doubt that there's a separation. What this reporter misses is that the separation is mutual and voluntary.

Yeah, we less affluent city residents just don't want to live around have-somes. Oh, and despite the fact that so many urban residents don't have the money to move anywhere, it's totally voluntary. Yup, nothing to see here!

I think what this reporter misses is that the separation is profitable and subsidized.

[sumas]

Yes, pretty good. Few reporters out there look at this divide between City and region. People who haven't been to Detroit do not understand that distinction.

[/FONT][/COLOR]There's no doubt that there's a separation. What this reporter misses is that the separation is mutual and voluntary.

Not sure about mutual. Of course I have seen reverse racism but mostly ignore it. It is a mental defense mechanism.

[Wesley Mouch]

Not sure about mutual. Of course I have seen reverse racism but mostly ignore it. It is a mental defense mechanism.

No, not race. But control.

The suburbs don't want Detroit's problems. And Detroit doesn't want suburban influence on its affairs.

Both sides want to keep the existing political boundaries in place.

[sumas]

No, not race. But control.

The suburbs don't want Detroit's problems. And Detroit doesn't want suburban influence on its affairs.

Both sides want to keep the existing political boundaries in place.

First I want to say I appreciate the many threads that concern Detroit issues and peoples input. I have weighed in here and there on one facet or another on small issue by small issue.

It is agreed Detroit problems are complex. As a Detroit resident and home owner, life long Detroiter [[did leave for awhile) would like to see a regional government, way more cost effective.

[rb336]

Another interesting take, this one of the long view

http://tinyurl.com/ma5w2dk

[Hermod]

Another interesting take, this one of the long view

http://tinyurl.com/ma5w2dk

Given her background, no wonder she blames everything on the PTB and "the man".

[rb336]

Given her background, no wonder she blames everything on the PTB and "the man".

Show me one thing that was factually wrong with her analysis.

[marshamusic]

Another interesting take, this one of the long view

http://tinyurl.com/ma5w2dk

Great article! [[given my background).

[mwilbert]

There's no doubt that there's a separation. What this reporter misses is that the separation is mutual and voluntary.

Don't know what an un-mutual separation would be, but I agree with Detroitnerd that it isn't exactly voluntary on the part of the immobile.

I think what this reporter misses is that the separation is profitable and subsidized.

Joseph Stiglitz is hardly a "reporter". He is one of the handful of greatest economists of our time. Nor do I think he missed the issues of profit and subsidization, but rather I think that his opinion is different than yours. In particular, my reading of the piece is that he thinks that at this point the separation is self-sustaining and doesn't require subsidization to continue.

[michimoby]

It was well-written, for sure.

Here's what I'm wondering: you have this influx of affluent white suburbanites moving into the city center. Has their perspective on the outlying neighborhoods really changed? Are they driving up Livernois to shop at Mike's, or is their lifestyle entirely confined to Midtown/Downtown?

If it's the latter, then a decent case that there's really not been any progress made toward creating a functional, livable city could be made.

[bailey]

It was well-written, for sure.

Here's what I'm wondering: you have this influx of affluent white suburbanites moving into the city center. Has their perspective on the outlying neighborhoods really changed? Are they driving up Livernois to shop at Mike's, or is their lifestyle entirely confined to Midtown/Downtown?

If it's the latter, then a decent case that there's really not been any progress made toward creating a functional, livable city could be made.

Given the regional ejaculation over the opening of the smallest Whole Foods in the country in the most affluent area of Detroit proper.... the answer to your question should be self evident.

[jbd441]

Given the regional ejaculation over the opening of the smallest Whole Foods in the country in the most affluent area of Detroit proper.... the answer to your question should be self evident.

Opps, Smallest Whole Foods Market is in Brookline Mass opened in April 2013 at a whopping 6,000 square feet. Detroit's WF is 26,000 square feet.

[Wesley Mouch]

It was well-written, for sure.

Here's what I'm wondering: you have this influx of affluent white suburbanites moving into the city center. Has their perspective on the outlying neighborhoods really changed? Are they driving up Livernois to shop at Mike's, or is their lifestyle entirely confined to Midtown/Downtown?

If it's the latter, then a decent case that there's really not been any progress made toward creating a functional, livable city could be made.

Drifting a little off topic here, but I don't see that the influx is 'white'. It seems rather diverse to me.

Sure, compared to Detroit's population, its probably 'whiter'. But compared with the metro area, I suspect it probably is more 'diverse'.

I also don't know that its safe to say they're suburbanites either. Nor does it really matter.

And closer to the point... As a group, I think they are much more likely to venture to all areas of the city than you think. This 'influx' isn't so simple.

[Lowell]

My Peace Corps years in Southern Africa long ago revealed to me that Detroit had become a 'reverse' Johannesburg which is a city with vibrant center surrounded by a ring of slums and poverty. This is the typical third world model. Metro Detroit has reversed that donut. Some call Detroit third world. It actually is fourth world, a new dimension in urbanity.

In both cases 'problems' are ghettoized. The wealthy parts of the city get a pass on a share of the difficulties and expenses. If you are on one side of the donut everything is fine. Race and class are the dividers in both cases.

[English]

My Peace Corps years in Southern Africa long ago revealed to me that Detroit had become a 'reverse' Johannesburg which is a city with vibrant center surrounded by a ring of slums and poverty. This is the typical third world model. Metro Detroit has reversed that donut. Some call Detroit third world. It actually is fourth world, a new dimension in urbanity.

In both cases 'problems' are ghettoized. The wealthy parts of the city get a pass on a share of the difficulties and expenses. If you are on one side of the donut everything is fine. Race and class are the dividers in both cases.

Excellent and accurate assessment.

[michimoby]

My Peace Corps years in Southern Africa long ago revealed to me that Detroit had become a 'reverse' Johannesburg which is a city with vibrant center surrounded by a ring of slums and poverty. This is the typical third world model. Metro Detroit has reversed that donut. Some call Detroit third world. It actually is fourth world, a new dimension in urbanity.

In both cases 'problems' are ghettoized. The wealthy parts of the city get a pass on a share of the difficulties and expenses. If you are on one side of the donut everything is fine. Race and class are the dividers in both cases.

Jo'burg, in many respects, is like Detroit -- except outside the ring of affluence is a ring of squalor. Many residents in exurbs like Sandton refuse to go into downtown Jo'burg despite its relative safety.

[iheartthed]

I think Stiglitz makes a good point about isolation of economic access contributing to Detroit's current situation. But Packman51 posted a copy of a report by JP Morgan that shows a pretty stunning decline of both the city and metro. Metro Detroit has lagged all other metropolitan areas by nearly every economic measure for the last four decades. I think that also needs to be examined in discussion of Detroit's current situation.

08-06-2013 -JPMorgan - How Different is Detroit.pdf

[Detroitnerd]

I think Stiglitz makes a good point about isolation of economic access contributing to Detroit's current situation. But Packman51 posted a copy of a report by JP Morgan that shows a pretty stunning decline of both the city and metro. Metro Detroit has lagged all other metropolitan areas by nearly every economic measure for the last four decades. I think that also needs to be examined in discussion of Detroit's current situation.08-06-2013 -JPMorgan - How Different is Detroit.pdf

Yes, it's true. But I think our brand of suburban triumphalism leaves that in the blind spot. I hear the argument that it's Detroit's problem. Or that the way southern Warren is going to seed is an example of the pernicious influence of Detroit.

The truth has been known for a long time, and the truth is that the rot is eating away at the foundations for the region. Regions that work together prosper. Regions that are divided, or where one part of the region says, "It's their problem. At least we're not them," have essentially lowered their sights.

[mwilbert]

Yes, it's true. But I think our brand of suburban triumphalism leaves that in the blind spot. I hear the argument that it's Detroit's problem. Or that the way southern Warren is going to seed is an example of the pernicious influence of Detroit.

The truth has been known for a long time, and the truth is that the rot is eating away at the foundations for the region. Regions that work together prosper. Regions that are divided, or where one part of the region says, "It's their problem. At least we're not them," have essentially lowered their sights.

This is exactly right. In another context, it would be called "the soft bigotry of low expectations." A metropolitan area is an economic and social unit, and southeastern Michigan isn't what it ought to be partly because it doesn't have a properly functioning core city. While the suburbs can and have taken on some of those functions, the result is a kind of mutant metropolis, which at least empirically doesn't work as well as a normal one.

[iheartthed]

This is exactly right. In another context, it would be called "the soft bigotry of low expectations." A metropolitan area is an economic and social unit, and southeastern Michigan isn't what it ought to be partly because it doesn't have a properly functioning core city. While the suburbs can and have taken on some of those functions, the result is a kind of mutant metropolis, which at least empirically doesn't work as well as a normal one.

You could put it this way: when Detroit was the economic engine of southeast Michigan, the metro area was one of the most critical economic centers in the world. When that concentration of economic power left Detroit, it paralleled the decline of Metro Detroit as a critical world economic center.

[Lowell]

Yes, it's true. But I think our brand of suburban triumphalism leaves that in the blind spot. I hear the argument that it's Detroit's problem. Or that the way southern Warren is going to seed is an example of the pernicious influence of Detroit.

The truth has been known for a long time, and the truth is that the rot is eating away at the foundations for the region. Regions that work together prosper. Regions that are divided, or where one part of the region says, "It's their problem. At least we're not them," have essentially lowered their sights.

Exactly and underlined by the 2000 and 2010 censuses. Almost every inner ring and Woodward corridor community lost population. We are like a hollow tree with the rot spreading outward. Too bad the chipmunks frolicking in the lush outer canopy don't realize that it is their problem too.

[Wesley Mouch]

Exactly and underlined by the 2000 and 2010 censuses. Almost every inner ring and Woodward corridor community lost population. We are like a hollow tree with the rot spreading outward. Too bad the chipmunks frolicking in the lush outer canopy don't realize that it is their problem too.

I believe they do realize it -- at least to some degree. But what can they do? What are their options?

And what do Detroiters want from the suburbs?

If you find an answer that satisfies both, you'll be getting somewhere.