DIA's national and world reputation

[Bobl]

I'll leave the top ten lists to David Letterman.
I know this: While at the DIA, I have never had a bad day. When I bring out of town visitors, in every case they thank me and offer comments like "I had no idea", or "This must be Detroit's best kept secret".
It is a wonderful museum.

[Lowell]

And back to our regularly scheduled thread...

I have had the joy of learning every nook cranny of the public DIA and could have walked blindfolded through the pre-renovation space. I have even had views in the vast nether word that lies locked away the under the tip of the iceberg . The collection is so vast that that it can only be morseled out over time. This is a truly fabulous collection of incredible quality.

Some of my favorites... and just starting with the western art .. 'Cotopaxi', as Gistok mentioned -- breathtaking in its combination of light, color, drama and craft.


The powerful and unflinching Rivera murals that are both a slap in the face of Detroit and almost worshipful praise of it.


Van Ruisdael's Jewish Cemetery after a Storm that make gray skies beautiful, and have fabulous ruins.

[Lorax]

Right on, Lowell.

I find having been a poster for several months now, that so many, especially those who have spent a lifteime living in and around Detroit have been so hammered by the negative news, that it's hard for them to have a positive outlook.

I found that having lived in different cities, and traveled to other nations opens up your outlook on other ways of doing things. The individual has to be open to suggestion, as many people I know who have traveled, never absorbed other cultures, or discovered new ways of looking at things.

Detroit has suffered more from a lack of confidence and pride in what it does have to offer, and the DIA is just one example of what the city can take pride in, as I can attest having lived in so many different places, that Detroit is by far a superior community to many places.

Miami, where I live now, is a backwater culturally, architecturally, and socially compared to Detroit.

There is no DIA, DSO, DPL, DHS, Cranbrook, MOT, Meadowbrook, Belle Isle, Fisher Building, Guradian Building, Metropark system, Wayne State, and the list goes on and on.

I say take a little more pride, GET INVOLVED politically, socially, and contribute. I do what I can through donations long distance, but only Detroiters, and I mean that regionally speaking, can make the difference.

Hell, we don't even have a decent pizza place here, NO KIDDING!

[Lorax]

One of four paintings in the DIA by Fragonard, considered the finest examples of his work, and four of the most important examples of French 18th century art in any museum in the world.



And this beauty by ebineste Martin Carlin once stood in the bedroom of Maria Feodorovna, Empress of Russia, and was made in the 1770's. Considered one of the most important pieces of French furniture in existence.

Thank you, Mrs. Dodge.

[Retroit]

It would be nice if all of us could stick to the thread topic and what is immediately related to it.

Yes, that would be nice! And what is the thread topic? Perhaps a review would be in order:

"DIA's national and world reputation
I have always wondered about the reputation of the DIA. Is it known and respected in the world of art? Or is it treated as some sort of regional institution? Would an art critic in lets say Europe or even on the coasts know much about the collection besides the Rivera mural?"

Is Patrick asking what we, DetroitYESers, think about the DIA? Or is he asking what its reputation is outside the city [["national and world reputation", "the world of art", "an art critic in lets say Europe or even the coasts")? And who out of all the people that have posted a response has answered that question? Who has posted not one, not two, but three unbiased, impartial, objective listings of non-Detroiters ranking of the DIA?

I challenge anyone to point out where I have said anything negative about the DIA. In fact I think it is the Absolute Number One Greatest Museum of All Time in the Whole Entire Universe and I could list from memory every work of art that has ever been displayed in the DIA, but is that an answer to Patrick's question?

So, yes, let us all stick to topic.

[Lorax]

No one accused you of denigrating the DIA, where do you get that from? You didn't.

What you did was ramble on about the city, it's decrepit condition, social issues, etc. Yeah, we are all aware of that, so what does that have to do with a discussion of the DIA and it's reputation?

That would be like lauding the Metropolitan in New York, and then going into some diatribe about how thugs have taken over the South Bronx, or how you have to wade through trash in some of the subway stations.

Next up for discussion may as well be quantum physics, for all it relates to the topic at hand.

[Retroit]

What you did was ramble on about the city, it's decrepit condition, social issues, etc. Yeah, we are all aware of that, so what does that have to do with a discussion of the DIA and it's reputation?

Perhaps you missed MIRepublic's question addressed to me: "What's your interest in Detroit, BTW? I honestly can't tell."

If during the course of a thread, a question is asked to someone other than the original poster, does not that person have the right to answer? Perhaps you should direct your displeasure at MIRepublic.

[Ray1936]

I'm not much of an art fancier, but I remember warmly my visits as a child and young man to the DIA. Our family often took in George Pierrot's travelogues on Sundays there, and they never failed to whet my appetite for travel. Afterwards, wandering about the place was always fun, even though I had no true appreciation for what I was viewing.

How does it rank? To me, that's a trivial question. It ranks #1 in warm memories of times long gone, so there.

[vetalalumni]

I'm not much of an art fancier, but I remember warmly my visits as a child and young man to the DIA. Our family often took in George Pierrot's travelogues on Sundays there, and they never failed to whet my appetite for travel. Afterwards, wandering about the place was always fun, even though I had no true appreciation for what I was viewing.

How does it rank? To me, that's a trivial question. It ranks #1 in warm memories of times long gone, so there.

Nice take on things Ray1936. You too Lowell.

The DIA is a Detroit treasure to me. Top tier nationally for the domain. But I'm no expert and have no stats to back this opinion.

Many visits over the years long ago. My future wife and I took in the DIA twice while courting about 20 years ago. Tens of wonderful, memorable photographs from during these visits adorn our personal photo albums.

My mother really loved art and instilled an appreciation of it in me. As an aside, George Pierrot was great too. We'd sit together as a family traveling the world with George. Ahhh, memories. Apologies for the thread jack.

[jiminnm]

This paper discusses the elements of a successful art museum, and I would think that the more a museum is successful then the greater its reputation.
http://www.getty.edu/leadership/comp...ds/metrics.pdf

This article suggests a top 5 in the world, with only one [[not the DIA) in the US.
http://www.dailynexus.com/article.php?a=13839

This article suggests the top 10 in the US, and doesn't include the DIA.
http://www.examiner.com/x-898-NY-Art...ums-in-America

All that said, Ray is exactly correct and we intend to visit the DIA the next time we're in town.

[Lorax]

The Examiner link was unfortunate, obviously some 20something guy who basically pulled reviews of the major museums in the country based on popularity and attendance, and tossed in the Frick Collection, which is superb, but small, being housed in the Frick mansion in New York. He's certainly never been to the DIA.

[Gistok]

The Examiner link was unfortunate, obviously some 20something guy who basically pulled reviews of the major museums in the country based on popularity and attendance, and tossed in the Frick Collection, which is superb, but small, being housed in the Frick mansion in New York. He's certainly never been to the DIA.

Yes the list that Jiminnm found the link for [[thanks Jim)... is very subjective...

If you told any New Yorker that the Metropolitan Museum of Art [[with over 2 million artifacts in their collections) was only the 3rd best in NYC, they'd think you were from another planet.

The generally accepted criteria used for the BEST MUSEUM category is all around art collections, not genre specific.

In in that category the 6 best all around art museums in the USA are [[not in any particular order):

1) Washington
2) NYC
3) Boston
4) Philadelphia
5) Detroit
6) Chicago

I've seen this same 6 listed over and over again in many publications and media, for the past 20-30 years, as the best in the USA.

As Lorax mentioned, Chicago has one of the best collections of Impressionist art. From what I've read, Detroit has the 3rd best collection of Italian paintings in the USA, after NYC and Washington. And we're way up there in Dutch/Flemish masters, and American 19th century paintings.

Any art critic can come up with their own list. And when it comes to lists... the list that always cracks me up is this one... the number of cathedrals in Europe that claim to be among the 6 largest in the world numbers at least 20!

The one museum that critics like to pan most often seems to be the Getty in Los Angeles. Critics claim that it has the best collection of 2nd tier art work in the world.

[LEOQUEEN]

I don't understand why anyone would want to dog the DIA. It is a beautiful and well respected arts institution. When Rockefeller and his cronies were destroying the Diego Rivera murals they had in NY, our arts commission stood up to the prevailing political winds and protected ours...which is now an absolute treasure and tourist attraction. Robert DeNiro was in there a few weeks ago just to see the Murals that he had heard so much about!

And the DIA and their curators have paid much attention over the years to the indigenous arts/creative community and placed their works within the context of the collection as a whole....as an encyclopedic collection this is very appropriate. In 1996 there was the INTERVENTIONS exhibition which was revolutionary in its time, for placing contemporary works of Michigan artists throughout the collection as well as having the first DVD catalog. Prior to this were the annual Michigan Artist Exhibitions. And most lately is the development of the General Motors Center for African American Art which is curated by nationally known arts historian Valerie Mercer.

I may be biased because the DIA has acquired the works of many of my friends, who are all of course, world class visual artists!

[spartacus]

Here is an article in the Detroit News that addressed this very issue:
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...0394/0/SPECIAL

Beal, and many other curators nationwide, divide the top American art museums into two tiers. Crowning them all is New York's Metropolitan Museum and Boston's Museum of Fine Arts.
Beneath that, he says, four august institutions elbow one another for prominence, with each taking the top slot, depending on the specific collection -- the Art Institute of Chicago, the DIA, the Philadelphia Museum of Art and Cleveland Museum of Art.
"If you rank Asian art tops, you'll pick Cleveland," he says. "Italian painting and sculpture? That's the DIA, and the same is true of American painting. The Impressionists? That's clearly Chicago."

Retroit-- I think that you're part of the problem with this area. There are many people who live here [[and I think that it would be fair to count you amongst them) who believe that nothing here can be world class because, you know, we are Detroit.

P.S. I don't think that Virgin Vacations interviewed too many curators from around the worlds about their list. Why don't you check the archives of People magazine to see if maybe they have a top ten museum list.

[Retroit]

Retroit-- I think that you're part of the problem with this area. There are many people who live here [[and I think that it would be fair to count you amongst them) who believe that nothing here can be world class because, you know, we are Detroit.

[Why people continue to feel the need to attack me is puzzling, but since you just couldn't resist, I'll defend myself once again.]

Did you read Patrick's original post? He didn't ask what people living here think; he asked about the DIA's reputation among the rest of the art world. I attempted to provide him with that information and was attacked as being anti-Detroit for doing so.

P.S. I don't think that Virgin Vacations interviewed too many curators from around the worlds about their list. Why don't you check the archives of People magazine to see if maybe they have a top ten museum list.

Why don't you? Or is an interview by The Detroit News of the curator of the DIA the only unbiased, impartial, objective source you could find?

I think everyone would have been better off starting a "Why I love the DIA and let me try to impress you with my knowledge of it" thread and left considerate people like me to answer Patrick's original post.

[Gistok]

[Why people continue to feel the need to attack me is puzzling... .

Not to many of us it's not... you asked last year in a separate DYES Connections thread, and we told you, but you've already forgotten.

You posted a list of links that basically listed the worlds MOST POPULAR museums. There's a big difference between MOST POPULAR and BEST. But perhaps that subtelty is lost on you. And in case you didn't notice, even the lists you provided didn't match up with each other.

The number of world class museums in the world probably numbers over 30. And Detroit is among them. To simply arrange them in a particular order is very subjective, and not worth arguing about.

It always cracks me up when someone who knows how to Google, suddenly becomes an expert on a subject. It doesn't work that way!

[spartacus]

Retroit, did you read the article I posted? It quoted the Director of the Dallas art museum [[not to mention the fact that it referenced objective criteria to make its point).

Curators around the country are loath to put a numerical ranking on collections, but almost unanimously praise Detroit. Some place Chicago a notch above Detroit, Philadelphia and Cleveland, but that comes down to quibbling.
"Detroit is one of North America's great encyclopedia museums," says the director of the Dallas Museum of Art, John R. Lane. "And there are places in the DIA that are astounding -- American painting, the Native American collection, parts of its European painting collection, decorative arts and certainly its African collection."

I can only speak for myself, but I didn't "attack" you for your opinion about the DIA [[ill informed as it may be), rather it was your condescending, sarcastic attitude. In addition, you continue to think that the sites you found somehow prove that the DIA is not one of the top encylopedic art museums in the country and world class. Do you live in the Detroit area? If so, I find your self loathing as evidenced by the following very sad: "[[b)eing realistic and honest and not pretending to be something that we are not."

[EastsideAl]

I'm not sure it really matters where the DIA "ranks" in some subjective rankings. The indisputable facts are that the DIA is one of only a few "encyclopedic" art museums [[that is, museums that attempt to cover the entire history of art) in the country, and that it contains many important and beautiful works and in-depth collections. As such, it is, also indisputably, one of the real treasures of our area.

It is one of the few important heritages we have left from the days when Detroit was one of the wealthiest places on Earth [[hard to believe now, but true). And, as Leoqueen points out, to the extent that their now limited resources allow, the Institute has adjusted well in recent years to the changes in the city around them and their visitor base. But being in Detroit, and these days well off the country's tourist and art connoisseurs' path, the DIA doesn't get nearly the number of visitors, or the acclaim, that its collections truly deserve. And so it is also well off the radar of many - particularly travel writers and others not particularly knowledgeable about art or art history - who would try to rank the country's museums.

[LEOQUEEN]

One of the things I am most happy about is that the attendance, while not completely optimum, has gone up because of the renovation and refitting of the spaces. I work right across the street from the DIA, so I have occasion to visit quite often. Before the renovation the galleries were as empty as downtown Detroit on a Saturday afternoon...that is to say, I could have any gallery I wanted to myself for private contemplation. Only me and the guard.

Now, there are lots of people coming in, and on several occasions I would have to wait to see some of my favorite pieces because there were people blocking my view! And the Diego Murals *always* have groups in attendance.

[Retroit]

My posts are the most popular, oh, excuse me, "the best" in the world because I say so, and I couldn't possibly be impartial. Even my associates rank me as one of the best, so it must be true.

[Gistok]

..... sigh....

Spartacus and EastsideAl, you bring up a good point with the encylopedic museum topic... Detroit definitely does fall into that category.

That's one reason why comparing museums becomes so problematic. For example.... London has its' art treasures spread across the British Museum, the Tate Gallery, the Victoria and Albert Museum, and [[for armory and jewels) the Tower of London.

By the same token Munich also has its' treasures spread out... there's the Alte Pinakothek [[Old Picture Gallery), Neue Pinakothek [[New Picture Gallery), the Glyptothek [[Greek/Roman sculpture), and the Residenz [[town palace of the kings of Bavaria) museum and treasury.

Put all the art treasures of the museums of either of these cities into one encyclopedic museum, and it would easily rival and fill a mammoth museum such as the Louvre or New York Metropolitan Museum.

Many other cities, especially in Europe, also have their art treasures spread out among multiple museums.

So the discussions about ranking museums [[or cities with the best art collections) is not as simple as being an expert at using Google...

[Lorax]

I had always thought what a great idea it would be for the DIA to expand out the back, down a mall like setting as in DC, with the grand staircase being the focal point facing a green lawn and landscaping, bordered by wide pea gravel paths, say, 50 feet wide, with museums lining the length of it.

Move the Scarab Club back a coupel of hundred feet, incorporate it into the wall-line of the mall setting, and this is where the Wright Museum, Children's Museum, MOCAD, Science Museum, and an expanded Historical Museum should be built. Detroit certainly has the land, and it would be a real focal point to the cultural center. Just an idea I've had for quite some time [[bring on that stimulus money!).

For as much criticism as Greenfield Village has had over the years for being a "canned" history museum, I can't help but think that for the times, it was the only logical choice for saving buildings that would have been lost to history.

I really hope some day the Historical Museum is able to build another building, and display the thousands of artifacts it has no place of displaying now. I love the design of the old building, but it's just too small, and would serve another purpose, another specific museum, perhaps.

[French777]

This is probably a really dumb question but, is there any kind of "mill" that we pay [[southeast michigan) to support the DIA?