LeDuff asks Kevyn Orr about 'dumb, lazy, happy and rich' remark

**Baselinepunk** · August-11-13, 09:14 AM

"Kwame stole. DPS employees stole. Pension Trustees sold out pensioners. Bondholders and banks preyed. Politicians fed mistrust and racism. Orr made a poor choice of words in pursuit of a good.

Hey, I thought you were all on the "we did this to ourselves" shtick there, Hamtramack. Looks to me like you forgot your froggy in your pocket, there.

**noise** · August-12-13, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by Locke09

Anyone who has been in an executive position, or any position of leadership, knows that this idea that a person can say whatever they want as long as it's "true" and they are "geniuses" and "doing a great job" is nonsense.

Who are people trying to convince with this, "stop being thin-skinned", "stop whining", "stop scrutinizing every word", etc. stuff? Are they trying to convince others or themselves?

If you just want to be an administrator you can act like this. But if you truly want to be an intelligent leader you cannot behave in this manner. People need to be able to trust you and believe that you have their best interests at heart if you expect them to follow you.

I hope he never does call our elected officials incompetent nincompoops. Because if he's going to be calling names, even calling our elected officials names, then he isn't the right man for the job.

But like I said, Kevyn doesn't have to care. He doesn't have to be a "leader" because he has the power to do what he wants whether the people like it or not. He is an administrator.

By the way Mr. Mouch, since the American legal system is an adversarial system, then the creditors are Kevyn's adversaries. He as much as admits it himself when he talks about them bullying him by going to court.

I expect the EM to have a vocabulary that makes statements like "dumb and lazy" unnecessary and I will continue to expect this of him. If he doesn't care, it's because he doesn't have to care.

Sounds like you're only interested in nitpicking. Complain about his choice of ties, or something.

**Locke09** · August-12-13, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by noise

Sounds like you're only interested in nitpicking. Complain about his choice of ties, or something.

You consider a discussion of what one should expect from leadership "nitpicking"? You don't say that any of what I said is illegitimate and doesn't make sense in the corporate world. So I assume it was too long and you didn't really read it.

**noise** · August-12-13, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by Locke09

You consider a discussion of what one should expect from leadership "nitpicking"? You don't say that any of what I said is illegitimate and doesn't make sense in the corporate world. So I assume it was too long and you didn't really read it.

Is that an example of the "leadership" you seem to know so much about?

Is government and politics now "the corporate world"? Is "the corporate world" a model of perfection?

**Wesley Mouch** · August-12-13, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by noise

Is that an example of the "leadership" you seem to know so much about?

Is government and politics now "the corporate world"? Is "the corporate world" a model of perfection?

The corporate world isn't a model of perfection -- but its often the best example of how people can work together for the common good. [[And sometimes its exactly the opposite.)

**noise** · August-13-13, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

The corporate world isn't a model of perfection -- but its often the best example of how people can work together for the common good. [[And sometimes its exactly the opposite.)

Only if the "common good" is corporate profits.

And in any case, it has nothing to do with Orr's statement.

**Locke09** · August-13-13, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by noise

Only if the "common good" is corporate profits.

And in any case, it has nothing to do with Orr's statement.

If the common good for a corporation is company profits, so that the company is healthy and employees feel secure [[and hopefully are well compensated) then so be it. That doesn't make Wesley Mouch's comment any less valid.

And it has everything to do with Orr's statement, although I don't know if that was even Mouch's intention. Does Kevyn's comments engender more cooperation or more antagonism and divisiveness?

It is legitimate to question whether any leader's speech and comportment is reflective of a mature individual or someone with some growing up to do. Is their conversation about others respectful or derisive? Leaders think about those things themselves. And yes, I have lot's of experience at leadership, public and private.

**noise** · August-14-13, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by Locke09

If the common good for a corporation is company profits, so that the company is healthy and employees feel secure [[and hopefully are well compensated) then so be it. That doesn't make Wesley Mouch's comment any less valid.

And it has everything to do with Orr's statement, although I don't know if that was even Mouch's intention. Does Kevyn's comments engender more cooperation or more antagonism and divisiveness?

It is legitimate to question whether any leader's speech and comportment is reflective of a mature individual or someone with some growing up to do. Is their conversation about others respectful or derisive? Leaders think about those things themselves. And yes, I have lot's of experience at leadership, public and private.

The fact that we're discussing "ifs" here may invalidate the statement, but I'm not interested in discussing the poster's intent.

This has much less to do with Orr's statement than it does with victim mentality, an ax to grind, or a misunderstanding. Unfortunately for Orr, he's dealing with a lot of people who will fall into these categories, calling into question each and everything he will [[or could conceivably) say.

**brizee** · August-14-13, 09:36 PM

He apologized. Sorta. Kinda.

Guess Snyder squeezed on the ole colon pretty tight. Not a good look to have a viceroy looking condescending when your treasurer can't keep record of a hundred stacks.

Now maybe his defenders can quit bending over backwards trying to explain how people shouldn't find insults...insulting.

Quit talking about eating butter and sugar sandwiches.

Stop reminiscing about eating chicken and watermelon barefoot on the porch.

And knock off the King Shine routine.

**firstandten** · August-14-13, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by brizee

He apologized. Sorta. Kinda.

Guess Snyder squeezed on the ole colon pretty tight. Not a good look to have a viceroy looking condescending when your treasurer can't keep record of a hundred stacks.

Now maybe his defenders can quit bending over backwards trying to explain how people shouldn't find insults...insulting.

Quit talking about eating butter and sugar sandwiches.

Stop reminiscing about eating chicken and watermelon barefoot on the porch.

And knock off the King Shine routine.

In the link you provided I watched the hour long interview. It was wide ranging but more importantly it provided context to a lot of issues that people were having problems with, including the statement that he made. I believe that the apology was sincere. Of course sincere is in the eye of the beholder. He also talked about the process of getting to the apology, According to Orr, the Nerd had nothing to do with it. I think the channel 7 folks did a good job of questioning him particularly with the relationship of his former law firm and the possibility of any back-end deals with the firm once his time of being EFM is up.

**sumas** · August-15-13, 07:46 AM

I woke up serious grumpy but looking at the beautiful weather we have compared to the rest of the country I've mellowed. A cup of coffee, I'll be loving the whole world

Orr is doing a good job. It's thankless and he keeps getting vilified. I do not agree with all his decisions but something needed to be done.

**noise** · August-15-13, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by brizee

Now maybe his defenders can quit bending over backwards trying to explain how people shouldn't find insults...insulting.

The problem is that some people can find anything insulting. And that's exactly what happened with this non-insult.

**Wesley Mouch** · August-15-13, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by noise

The problem is that some people can find anything insulting. And that's exactly what happened with this non-insult.

Certainly this is true -- but I also think there's more here to consider. The furor over these kind of isolated quotations wasn't organic. Its often created by those who have a dog in the hunt -- of course to their own ends.

We must decide what is, and what is not important. Mr. Orr's comments to me were a valid commentary on why we found ourselves at the bankruptcy fountain before anyone else. Others found it as an insult.

We all need to decide what's important and what is not. IMO, this wasn't important and was only a media storm by those who would oppose Jesus if he were the EM.

**noise** · August-15-13, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Certainly this is true -- but I also think there's more here to consider. The furor over these kind of isolated quotations wasn't organic. Its often created by those who have a dog in the hunt -- of course to their own ends.

We must decide what is, and what is not important. Mr. Orr's comments to me were a valid commentary on why we found ourselves at the bankruptcy fountain before anyone else. Others found it as an insult.

We all need to decide what's important and what is not. IMO, this wasn't important and was only a media storm by those who would oppose Jesus if he were the EM.

I think that's very true and I agree with you.

**Locke09** · August-15-13, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

We all need to decide what's important and what is not. IMO, this wasn't important and was only a media storm by those who would oppose Jesus if he were the EM.

His comment was criticized by writers who do not even live in Michigan - one writes for Forbes magazine and basically called it unprofessional. So, it's not just people with something to gain who thought it was inappropriate.

Everyone who is in the public eye is going to have their critics and their apologists.

**antongast** · August-15-13, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

IMO, this wasn't important and was only a media storm by those who would oppose Jesus if he were the EM.

I think Jesus would make an absolutely fantastic EM. You'd never catch Him fucking around with people's pensions.

**Honky Tonk** · August-15-13, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by antongast

I think Jesus would make an absolutely fantastic EM. You'd never catch Him fucking around with people's pensions.

I don't know. Jesus can be a real hard-ass if need be.

**mam2009** · August-15-13, 06:56 PM

Since when is "I'm sorry IF I offended you" and implying that only people who read the WSJ could know he didn't mean his comments to be taken "literally", considered an apology.

He also said that he didn't "apologize" sooner because, as a lawyer, he believes "you don't cop a plea if you didn't do it". So, does that mean he now believes his remarks were offensive or is he just "copping a plea" to avoid a harsher "penalty"?

Ambiguous apologies are not apologies at all. He didn't take responsibility for using offensive words to describe Detroiters [[his clients, btw) in a national publication. AND HE DIDN'T SAY IT WAS WRONG TO HAVE DONE SO.

**Lily** · August-15-13, 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

I don't know. Jesus can be a real hard-ass if need be.

Good point! And he is pretty big on letting his people make their own decisions.
methinks he probably wont be on the next ballot so we'd all best make some good decisions and straighten our problems out.

Lily

**noise** · August-16-13, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by Locke09

His comment was criticized by writers who do not even live in Michigan - one writes for Forbes magazine and basically called it unprofessional. So, it's not just people with something to gain who thought it was inappropriate.

Everyone who is in the public eye is going to have their critics and their apologists.

Writers have nothing to gain by discussing Detroit?

**noise** · August-16-13, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by mam2009

He didn't take responsibility for using offensive words to describe Detroiters [[his clients, btw) in a national publication. AND HE DIDN'T SAY IT WAS WRONG TO HAVE DONE SO.

He shouldn't apologize for something he didn't do.

**ordinary** · August-16-13, 11:23 AM

What does DLHR stand for?

**sumas** · August-16-13, 11:45 AM

I highly do not think that Orr was insulting individual Detroiters. It was a commentary on business and government. He wasn't wrong but certainly phrased things not appropriately . His bad, doesn't make him wrong,

**firstandten** · August-16-13, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by sumas

I highly do not think that Orr was insulting individual Detroiters. It was a commentary on business and government. He wasn't wrong but certainly phrased things not appropriately . His bad, doesn't make him wrong,

Problem is because some people don't want him here in the first place any misstep or slip of the tongue is going to reinforce the notion that he shouldn't be here. He will NOT get the benefit of doubt on questionable statements or actions. If Detroit had decent political leadership the mayor could have handled the EFM part and Orr and his former firm could concentrate only on the bankruptcy aspect. Instead you have a political novice trying to represent and at the same time calm the fears of the people which is a tough balancing act. One of the reasons I think people like Orr is because he doesn't give you the politicians non-answers that we are so use to getting.