M1 Rail contract awarded

[ScienceFair]

It won't go very far, for 3 miles. Detroit is 8 miles long. All it will do is serve the TOURISTs.

I live in Midtown and I love the idea of having a shorter loop system that will be running on a reliable schedule. Currently, I take the 53 which runs from State Fair to Jefferson, about an hour trip each way. If it gets stuck in traffic in HP or downtown or at the Boulevard, it throws off the whole schedule.

Another efficiency that I look forward to is a more accessible and seamless boarding process. Currently, some of the old busses still have that crazy Transformers ramp that pops up and out of the door for wheelchairs. This process adds about 5-10 minutes to any trip. And it's all additive, people bugging the driver, people struggling with change at the fair box. This is why I wait 20-30 minutes during peak hours when there should be a bus every 8 minutes. Too many variables.

I like the texting app that lets you see when the next bus is coming, but I would love to just walk outside knowing that there will be a train in the next 5-10 minutes like in a real city. I would use this system all the time.

[Hermod]

Another efficiency that I look forward to is a more accessible and seamless boarding process. Currently, some of the old busses still have that crazy Transformers ramp that pops up and out of the door for wheelchairs. This process adds about 5-10 minutes to any trip. And it's all additive, people bugging the driver, people struggling with change at the fair box. This is why I wait 20-30 minutes during peak hours when there should be a bus every 8 minutes. Too many variables.

I don't live in Detroit now, but I once did. I rode the buses and even the streetcars. I live in Florida now and rarely use a bus. It might just be my imagination, but it seems to me watching buses load and unload here in Florida that people seem to take longer to get on board and to get off the bus. It just seems that in Detroit back in the forties, fifties, and sixties that people were a lot more expeditious about it and the the driver was quick to shut the door and get motivating.

[Richard]

I don't live in Detroit now, but I once did. I rode the buses and even the streetcars. I live in Florida now and rarely use a bus. It might just be my imagination, but it seems to me watching buses load and unload here in Florida that people seem to take longer to get on board and to get off the bus. It just seems that in Detroit back in the forties, fifties, and sixties that people were a lot more expeditious about it and the the driver was quick to shut the door and get motivating.

Tampa street car uses a kiosk,cash or debt card to buy a ticket to hand to the drivers which speeds things up.

The bus you can use cash or 30 day pass,what seems to slow things down is expired pass and ones fumbling for correct change when they know from one day to the next what correct change is.

[michimoby]

All very helpful stuff, Texas. Thanks!

Just curious, was there dialogue around creating a BRT line in lieu of light rail? And if so, what were the talking points that swayed the dialogue in the favor of the latter?

[Umbound]

Someone correct me if I am wrong. Is there not a part of Woodward that dips down also with a bridge of sorts a little north of New Center? If it ever does extend out what will be done?

[marshamusic]

Someone correct me if I am wrong. Is there not a part of Woodward that dips down also with a bridge of sorts a little north of New Center? If it ever does extend out what will be done?

Yes; the Woodward dips down at the southern edge of New Center, at Milwaukee. There is a valley there under the Amtrak viaduct.

[professorscott]

Someone correct me if I am wrong. Is there not a part of Woodward that dips down also with a bridge of sorts a little north of New Center? If it ever does extend out what will be done?

MDOT will rebuild that section of Woodward such that there is enough clearance for the streetcars, and they will not be powered by overhead wire in that section. The streetcar batteries have enough power to go off-wire for a short distance. Actually M1 is considering whether to go with an entirely off-wire system, running the cars entirely on battery.

[rbdetsport]

MDOT will rebuild that section of Woodward such that there is enough clearance for the streetcars, and they will not be powered by overhead wire in that section. The streetcar batteries have enough power to go off-wire for a short distance. Actually M1 is considering whether to go with an entirely off-wire system, running the cars entirely on battery.

Wouldn't an off-wire system make it incompatible for expansion?

[stasu1213]

MDOT will rebuild that section of Woodward such that there is enough clearance for the streetcars, and they will not be powered by overhead wire in that section. The streetcar batteries have enough power to go off-wire for a short distance. Actually M1 is considering whether to go with an entirely off-wire system, running the cars entirely on battery.

That makes more since to have the train run by battery instead of the old fashion overhead wire system. I still don't believe it until I see ground being broken in August[[late summer) as promise. I would say that smoke is being blown up our asses if ground is not broken within August.

[AuburnSpeedster]

I really like the way Minneapolis has it. They have a great system, very efficient and it too goes on that "honor system" that Houston uses... except it goes in the middle of the street rather than the sides. It also goes off the street in the less dense areas for speed and avoiding traffic stops

[drpoundsign]

rapid transit, like in Cleveland, Saint Louis from the Airport to downtown are Sometimes practical. But they run at grade level and Idiots WILL be run over or killed in Wrecks. The street car did not even have right-of-way so was impractical. The New York Subway is not Pretty-or in an already built up city-practical-but it Works where implemented. An elevated monorail is fast and quiet.

[Detroitdave]

I've lives in several cities where they built of expanded their "Merton" systems and in every case it did what it was built for and in all cases every stop had several businesses around it.
you can mark my words this will help build up an already building Woodward , downtown, midtown , new center , ect.
i Personally can guarantee everything along this line will grow .

[Bham1982]

I've lives in several cities where they built of expanded their "Merton" systems and in every case it did what it was built for and in all cases every stop had several businesses around it.
you can mark my words this will help build up an already building Woodward , downtown, midtown , new center , ect.
i Personally can guarantee everything along this line will grow .

Not sure what a "Merton" system is, or your personal guarantees of growth, but why is this relevant to a transit system? I thought we're supposed to be concerned with mobility and ridership, not whether or not this attracts a few hipster businesses to open in Location A as opposed to Location B.

And most cities with light rail systems do not see a big business influx. The closest city with light rail, Cleveland, has no business influx along any of its three light rail lines.

[ghettopalmetto]

Not sure what a "Merton" system is, or your personal guarantees of growth, but why is this relevant to a transit system? I thought we're supposed to be concerned with mobility and ridership, not whether or not this attracts a few hipster businesses to open in Location A as opposed to Location B.

And most cities with light rail systems do not see a big business influx. The closest city with light rail, Cleveland, has no business influx along any of its three light rail lines.

Since I know you're into development, Bham, you are surely aware of all the new development happening near the Ohio City, W65th, University Circle, and Flats East Bank stations.

Just because Cleveland was stupid back in the day, and ran most of their rapid transit down existing railroad right-of-way, doesn't mean that Detroit should just roll over and die.

[Hermod]

I still maintain that there would have been a lot more regional support for a Woodward line if they had started in Pontiac and worked in towards downtown Detroit. The current plans may well end up being just an easy way for Wayne State students to go downtown, get plastered, and get home without a DUI.

[Lowell]

I still maintain that there would have been a lot more regional support for a Woodward line if they had started in Pontiac and worked in towards downtown Detroit. The current plans may well end up being just an easy way for Wayne State students to go downtown, get plastered, and get home without a DUI.

Amen to that. Maybe this has been asked before, but how fast can the cars go and are the chainable, like subway cars? The reason I ask is should the fairly tale of a high speed transit route [subway/el] up Woodward to Pontiac come true, could those cars transparently blend in? Or would it all have to be at street level?

[professorscott]

Amen to that. Maybe this has been asked before, but how fast can the cars go and are the chainable, like subway cars? The reason I ask is should the fairly tale of a high speed transit route [subway/el] up Woodward to Pontiac come true, could those cars transparently blend in? Or would it all have to be at street level?

Sorry about the long delay in answering this.

1. The cars can be linked.
2. The cars, when I was looking into this in detail a few years ago, usually are capable of traveling about 70 km/h [[45 MPH), which is about as fast as you'd want them to go if running alongside traffic. Subway cars in the US usually run at 100 km/h [[60 MPH) when run flat-out on straightaways.

By the way a subway will not happen in our lifetime. More rail [[commuter rail, extension of M1 to Royal Oak, LRT on Gratiot) is likely in 5 to 20 years.

[rb336]

By the way a subway will not happen in our lifetime. More rail [[commuter rail, extension of M1 to Royal Oak, LRT on Gratiot) is likely in 5 to 20 years.

gee, I hope to be alive in 5 to 20

[Eric_c]

I posted this back in 2007 and it's still relevant:

I believe that practical, efficient mass transit throughout Metro-Detroit would enhance the current state of the region, PROVIDED the system's right-of-ways are conceived from the onset as development engines for new urban commuter corridors. A Detroit-area rapid transit system,with few exceptions, would not necessarily do well to try to mimic current auto routes. Instead, residents and community leaders would be wise to view the development of such a system as a way to promote brand-new economic development in under-utilized areas throughout the region. Public investment in a properly planned and executed network of transit AND appropriate zoning could credibly enhance Southeastern Michigan's economy by creating opportunities for private investment in areas where there are currently, seemingly few.

I see the return of streetcars to Woodward Avenue as the initial step toward the realization of a true regional transit system and the development of urban commuter corridors. Woodward stands out as the most logical place to institute such a line as it lends itself almost immediately to transits' highest and best use. At once, the urban density of the corridor combined with the current level of disinvestment indicates that a strategyof public commitment to attract private capital to the area would yield the greatest potential return.

In the form of a dedicated streetcar line, even if initially limited to between Campus Martius and the Boulevard, this public commitment would increase the value of property throughout the corridor. A transit line would promote in-fill and spin-off developments, increase the desirability of the route as a place to live and conduct business, as well as providea practical means of commuting [[even if only initially) between Downtown, Midtown and New Center.

It is my contention that traditional streetcars are the mode of transportation best suited to Woodward Avenue and the otherradials,particularlyinthe CBD. Streetcars would be ideal along these routes because the overall scale of the street allows for their efficient function. I wouldn't advocate "station stops" or fifty-mile-per-hour vehicles - especially between Downtown and New Center. By the same token, I wouldn't consider old-fashioned streetcars on Big Beaver or Wayne Roads, either! Streetcars offer affordable, comfortable, quiet transportation along a permanent route. Stops do not need to be elaborate structures, and wheelchair access is not a problem on modern vehicles.

The metro area will have some type of improved transit sooner or later, but I also believe that the area has sprawled out too far from the core to make any ONE model practical on a regional level. Regardless, we would be best served by building a permanent system that keeps as it's purpose the stabilization of existing areas and the sensible pioneering of new growth in previously-undeveloped or less-desireable sections of the metro. A Woodward streetcar line, as an example, would do both.

[mwilbert]

Steel-on-steel has less friction than rubber-on-asphalt, so vehicle performance is smoother.

Yes, it has less friction. No, that isn't what makes the ride smoother.

[mwilbert]

Look. As currently conceived the M1 has few if any logistical benefits over a bus, and some significant deficiencies. However, the people who think the M1 will be an improvement are probably not focusing on that aspect of it, but on the idea that there are a lot of people who will not take a bus, but might take a streetcar, and on the idea that a streetcar looks like part of the progress being made in downtown and midtown. It is pointless to argue that a bus would move people up and down Woodward just about as well, because that isn't the improvement that is being sought.

[bailey]

Look. As currently conceived the M1 has few if any logistical benefits over a bus, and some significant deficiencies. However, the people who think the M1 will be an improvement are probably not focusing on that aspect of it, but on the idea that there are a lot of people who will not take a bus, but might take a streetcar, and on the idea that a streetcar looks like part of the progress being made in downtown and midtown. It is pointless to argue that a bus would move people up and down Woodward just about as well, because that isn't the improvement that is being sought.

100% agree. This is all about aesthetics and nothing to do with logistics. which is why I think this is such waste of an opportunity to do something other than lipstick a pig.

[mwilbert]

100% agree. This is all about aesthetics and nothing to do with logistics. which is why I think this is such waste of an opportunity to do something other than lipstick a pig.

What opportunity is that? The people paying want lipstick.

[ghettopalmetto]

100% agree. This is all about aesthetics and nothing to do with logistics. which is why I think this is such waste of an opportunity to do something other than lipstick a pig.

"Lipstick" is that goofy-ass bus "rapid" transit that Rick Snyder and SEMCOG are going to try to sell you. The Woodward Streetcar is far more than lipstick. Reasons for this have been given, but since some folks want to be so blase at the potential for billions of dollars in new investment due to the streetcar [[see: Portland), then that's your problem--not the streetcar's.

It's dangerous [[and disingenuous) to downplay the streetcar based on a single fictional example. Are hordes of people going to take the streetcar from Congress to Grand Circus Park? Probably not. But will people board at Congress and ride to Midtown? Will additional people board at Grand Circus Park to ride to Midtown? Will people boarding at Midtown [[say, commuter rail passengers arriving from Ann Arbor or DTW) ride the streetcar to both Grand Circus *and* Congress to arrive at their destination? Yes.

Are any of these people going to ride the 53 bus, not knowing whether it's ever going to show up, if ever? No. Are developers going to construct new buildings and fill existing space just because DDOT erects a signpost on the corner? No.

And, I do know this: When I travel to a different city, I am a heck of a lot more inclined to ride a tram or streetcar than I am to board a bus, simply because I *know* where it goes, and I *know* where it stops.

Detroit is finally implementing something that it never should have done away with 60 years ago. Don't let the "good" be the enemy of the "perfect". Unlike the debacle known as DPM, the streetcar network can be expanded as money becomes available. But if you just sit on your hands and wait for a 100-mile streetcar system or light rail or commuter rail to fall out of the sky, you're going to get what you've always got: Nothing.

[bailey]

[QUOTE=ghettopalmetto;397055]

"Lipstick" is that goofy-ass bus "rapid" transit that Rick Snyder and SEMCOG are going to try to sell you.

Try? it's been bought. there are no plans other than that. we will have 3 miles of track and the rest will be BRT. again...that is my point.

The Woodward Streetcar is far more than lipstick. Reasons for this have been given, but since some folks want to be so blase at the potential for billions of dollars in new investment due to the streetcar [[see: Portland), then that's your problem--not the streetcar's.

I think comparing Portland's system to detroit is an insult to Portland. Unless of course, we're going to talk about Portland's proposal to start using BRT instead of rail? It's stupid here, but not Portland?


look, Portland's first line was 15 miles long. secondly Portland is the result of 40 years of pretty progressive land use policies. I'm all about comparisons.. but I don't know of one major city doing this today that started with a line as short or had such fucked up priorities land use wise. Dallas? Houston? double the distance for the first line.

[Are any of these people going to ride the 53 bus, not knowing whether it's ever going to show up, if ever? No. Are developers going to construct new buildings and fill existing space just because DDOT erects a signpost on the corner? No.

Perhaps they would if it's reliable? What if our regional bus system operated in such a way that the 53 was linked to an app and you could see it would be at your stop in 47 seconds... and if you missed that one another would be coming in 4:42... and if you miss that... another is coming in 9:48?

And, I do know this: When I travel to a different city, I am a heck of a lot more inclined to ride a tram or streetcar than I am to board a bus, simply because I *know* where it goes, and I *know* where it stops.

I'm curioius what cities you travel to that switch bus routes on you and make it confusing. When I travel I pick up a transit map if I intend to use it and if I'm not renting a car because I need to get to some sprawly office park. Usually, I do use rail lines because most of the time there is a station at the Airport and its going to drop me near to where my hotel is...or will at least get me to a transit hub. Something this will never do.

Detroit is finally implementing something that it never should have done away with 60 years ago. Don't let the "good" be the enemy of the "perfect".

Well I agree.. and it's getting built so there really is not a debate anymore about degree of good. time will tell.

Unlike the debacle known as DPM, the streetcar network can be expanded as money becomes available.

except there is no plan, there will be no money baring a 180 degree reversal in Lansing politics and priorities, and it wont' be expanded.

But if you just sit on your hands and wait for a 100-mile streetcar system or light rail or commuter rail to fall out of the sky, you're going to get what you've always got: Nothing.

not asking for 100 miles, only 10 maybe 15 you know, something that would actually resemble a foundation for a transit system. That... and a credible, believable plan to expand it.