Why doesn't ANYBODY mention the elephants in the room? Crime & illiteracy

[Zacha341]

Well stated. I am striving to stay in the D as long as I can. I think I am a possum too in a way... I don't bother anyone but I ain't 'trying' to see what I have and value jammed up by someone seeking the un-earned.

Rabbits run, Badgers stay. Me, I am probably an opossum, fight when I need to.

[Honky Tonk]

I don't think it is 'automatic' but it is RELATED. It really boils down to values and delayed gratification. We now have generations of illiteracy and that speaks to what a person knows, how they judge, and process the world around them, relative to being motivated to rising above the status quo. And to even apprehend how 'stuff' so to speak is acquired; work ethic, etc. being taught or not taught generationally.

For example, no one in the household is reading, so reading in some class room becomes too abstract and absurd of an idea, it does not related to anything tangible or useful at the gratification level. And if you cannot read you shun the activity further.

That is about the most honest evaluation of why this City is in the shape it is. Education never was a priority. You could make $50K a year doing a menial job in a factory, full benefits, Unions would protect you if you didn't show up, so why bother? These jobs thinned out and disappeared, Detroit's attitude towards education didn't change. Blaming the fascist State, skin color, or some non-existent 'privilege" is BS. Until people come to grips that an education is absolutely necessary for income sustainability, nothing will change. There enough resources available to achieve the goal. You can lead a horse to water.......

[Chicago48]

Is it not PC to mention that white and black flight was sparked by and was a reaction [[escape) to crime? And please tell me how Detroit can ever come back when it's a city of hundreds of thousands of functionally illiterate citizens -- many of which don't want to work? How can politics or auto makers or unions make people control their impulse to rob and shoot each other or force adults to learn to read and go to a 9-5 Monday through Friday? Nothing I've read has placed any accountability on the citizens of the city.

I resent your "don't want to work" comment, because that can also be applied to some white kids I know of and have seen. They work when they feel like it....get a little paycheck and then disappear and show up at another job....get a paycheck and disappear. So to claim that Blacks don't want to work [[that's who you mean right?) is unfair.

Sometimes you have to teach a baby to walk, you know hold their arms and help them walk. It may be that way with Detroiters.
I could write a long story about my grandmother who was a house maid and everything she learned about setting tables, keeping a house clean, and cooking, she brought back to HER house and taught her family. You don't have that anymore. Parents don't emphasize education the way they did years ago because at this point, they probably feel it's of no use. They send their kids to school, but how many actually GO into the school to see how their kid is doing?

[Honky Tonk]

I resent your "don't want to work" comment, because that can also be applied to some white kids I know of and have seen. They work when they feel like it....get a little paycheck and then disappear and show up at another job....get a paycheck and disappear. So to claim that Blacks don't want to work [[that's who you mean right?) is unfair.

Sometimes you have to teach a baby to walk, you know hold their arms and help them walk. It may be that way with Detroiters.
I could write a long story about my grandmother who was a house maid and everything she learned about setting tables, keeping a house clean, and cooking, she brought back to HER house and taught her family. You don't have that anymore. Parents don't emphasize education the way they did years ago because at this point, they probably feel it's of no use. They send their kids to school, but how many actually GO into the school to see how their kid is doing?

We must know the same white kids. I know guys in their mid-50's, live in Mom's basement, and work long enough to collect unemployment. I know black families where the children are better educated and will do better then I ever did. And you are right, it takes more then just making sure the kid goes through the school's front door in the morning, WAY more. Usually that's where the failure is.

[Cliffy]

Unfortunately for Detroit, its just a vicious cycle of stupidity which breeds poverty. Baby mama's and having all these kids with different fathers [[Seriously, what is wrong with them), no education, kids grow up with no father and the cycle repeats. I was talking to a co-worker from Africa and he could not understand Detroit. He was telling me how poor and beat down his school was in Africa but education is very important there. Where in Detroit, its not cool to talk in proper english and go to school. I don't know what went wrong. Elder blacks were very family oriented and talked up education. This new 45 and under group in Detroit is hopeless.

[mwilbert]

I don't know what went wrong. Elder blacks were very family oriented and talked up education. This new 45 and under group in Detroit is hopeless.

People have actually studied this question, as it is both interesting and important. Of course, given the nature of the issue there is a lot of ideological work on this subject, some of which is well-written but amazingly wrong-headed. I would suggest looking at "When Work Disappears" by William Julius Wilson, in which at least the description of the problem is empirically based.

[sumas]

I think I would be interested in reading that. At the risk of being redundant. Let me talk about one neighbor again. He is 32. Left school in 11th grade to work. His family needed the money. His Dad, [[parents were married) a gainfully employed police officer took a hike and never paid child support.

His last job he held for 12 yrs and missed one day of work. Company folded. It took him a year and half to find a new job. I know this because he used our computer/internet almost daily applying/seeking work. He did find a job as a "dish washer" and damn happy to get that. The buses do not run properly so often he walks 3.5 miles to work or home. The new place of employment is thrilled with his promptness and work ethic and are training him for a better position. There is a work ethic in city but no jobs/no transit.

[sumas]

As to literacy, we don't have an open library for miles or a rec center either. It breaks my heart.

[rex]

I tend to think most people want to work. Few things more demoralizing than not enough money and too much spare time. 50 years ago literacy wasn't the deal breaker it is now. The jobs that cater to the underskilled/undereducated just dont exist like they used to and especially inside Detroit. The underskilled/undereducated didn't go anywhere, in fact they are concentrated in Detroit. Lack the means to make a move.
May be a very basic blueprint for success but my take =
1)Detroit becomes a labor friendly environment for reinvestment and blue collar jobs return along with the white collar jobs downtown.
2)Guys that would otherwise be unemployed, hustling, selling drugs, ripping and running, start earning a paycheck instead.
3) People have less idle time to get in trouble
4) $ filters into city coffers. Detroit is able to offer better services, police that show up in good time. More people become willing to give Detroit a chance.
B Napoleon's vision only focuses on his agenda. More $ for police. We can lock up all the badguys.... doesn't work like that

[rex]

Thats more like a 25 year plan. Things dont just happen overnight unfortunately

[EastsideAl]

There is a work ethic in city but no jobs/no transit.

It's amazing to me how many people though are willing to blame the victims, rather than trying to help with the problem. It's much easier apparently to look at a city full of "others" and brand "them" as shif'less potential criminals than to see the truth of a city where nearly all of the decent living wage jobs disappeared.

The fact is that my grandparents, and I'm reasonably certain the grandparents or great-grandparents of many people here, came to this city as illiterate, near illiterate, or at least not terribly well educated, and were able to make it and make a better life for all of us because there were good, decent paying, jobs for them to do [[although they often had to fight for the right to those decent pay and conditions).

To act so all high and mighty and "my shit never stank" disdainful now because "they" are not as educated or well off as your golden ass, and like the rest of the working class in this country right now suffer from a dearth of decent opportunities, seems more than a little transparent and ugly.

[Richard]

As to literacy, we don't have an open library for miles or a rec center either. It breaks my heart.

Yet 5 miles away they are burning books.

One thing I would agree with Mr. Snyder is the importance of community centers,but one that would have an educational twist.

Sumas he was going to set them up in the schools,how far away is the school from you and do you see transportation as an issue in the use of schools as community centers.

The city owns a lot of houses in neighborhoods,if one set up a 501c had the house donated by the city tax exempt and funding received via corporate,or private donations,kinda like a adopt a community center program.

Nothing fancy,functional with internet service,small rotating library between the centers etc.

Or based as a micro public library offshoot of the main public library which would involve probably to much red tape and politics to be productive.

Would this be more realistic in your currant situation?

[sumas]

The bad guys comment kind of got to me. I have been told by law enforcement people and forensic physiologists that prisons all over the state drive their released prisoners down to Detroit and dump them.

This is hear say of course but I wouldn't be surprised.

I tend to be very defensive of my city, not because of our woes but because there are so many people left who are so committed. Detroiters in reality are super friendly, caring people.

I could of course wax serious poetic on our problems and possible solutions but can't handle the trolls that would seize on serious dialogue to trash Detroit and expound on their racism.

[p69rrh51]

As to literacy, we don't have an open library for miles or a rec center either. It breaks my heart.

I am very disappointed that the city cannot maintain a library or rec center in an area with good population density. Sumas have you ever thought about raising funds to reopen the Gray Branch[[is it even possible) on Field? I would be willing to help with a project to open a library in your area.

[EastsideAl]

I think the Gray Branch building [[which I went to school across the street from) is probably beyond repair. It's been sitting there vacant and unmaintained since the '80s.

But at least it's still there, unlike the Mark Twain Library branch on Gratiot that the community of "them" north of Indian Village fought like hell to keep open and improve, only to have the city and the DPL botch the renovation so badly [[and then have their funding cut to nearly nothing by Lansing) so that the whole place ended up abandoned and torn down. The minister at the nearby church in the old St. Catherine's building did, however, save the books that the DPL let him have and reopened the branch in the old church hall. They struggled to keep this Mark Twain "Annex" going as long as they could, despite little help [[and some outright hostility) from the powers that be. DPL killed them off anyway.

[48009]

Unfortunately for Detroit, its just a vicious cycle of stupidity which breeds poverty. Baby mama's and having all these kids with different fathers [[Seriously, what is wrong with them), no education, kids grow up with no father and the cycle repeats. I was talking to a co-worker from Africa and he could not understand Detroit. He was telling me how poor and beat down his school was in Africa but education is very important there. Where in Detroit, its not cool to talk in proper english and go to school. I don't know what went wrong. Elder blacks were very family oriented and talked up education. This new 45 and under group in Detroit is hopeless.

Bingo.

Not sure why people are attacking me for starting this thread. Nobody is acting "high and mighty" this is a very HARSH and very sad reality, that is getting next to no attention in the media. How do you reverse this vicious illiteracy cycle? I really have no idea. Some of you said [[re)open the libraries; as if libraries have been utilized the last couple of decades. I've been into the libraries that are open and I see people wasting the day away on computers, playing games or listening to music. I don't see them full of parents reading to their kids, or anything productive. Education is a necessity to make it in America and Detroit either didn't get the memo, doesn't care or has simply given up.

[48009]

I think the Gray Branch building [[which I went to school across the street from) is probably beyond repair. It's been sitting there vacant and unmaintained since the '80s.

But at least it's still there, unlike the Mark Twain Library branch on Gratiot that the community of "them" north of Indian Village fought like hell to keep open and improve, only to have the city and the DPL botch the renovation so badly [[and then have their funding cut to nearly nothing by Lansing) so that the whole place ended up abandoned and torn down. The minister at the nearby church in the old St. Catherine's building did, however, save the books that the DPL let him have and reopened the branch in the old church hall. They struggled to keep this Mark Twain "Annex" going as long as they could, despite little help [[and some outright hostility) from the powers that be. DPL killed them off anyway.

I volunteer at a community center for at risk youth. They come in and want to play basketball. Which is fine, I guess, as it's better than smoking weed or hanging out at a liquor store with a Glock on their waist. But you ask them about school work and they DON'T CARE. Why? Because their parents DON'T CARE.

[EastsideAl]

And your solution to that is... hey, look at those boys play some ball!

[Wesley Mouch]

There is no avoidance. We know our problems. So many individuals, neighborhoods, churches and organizations work daily to deal with these problems. In my neighborhood a trained social worker/teacher works with our kids in summer to improve reading skills. I teach cooking and healthful eating skills, my husband teaches piano. So many churches provide additional support to kids and adults to enhance skills. This is all volunteer work.

Quit bitching, volunteer or put your money where your mouth is. Georgia Street Community Collective is looking for money for backpacks and school supplies.

Thank you for your hard work -- and recognizing the work of others.

Lots of hard work does not mean there isn't avoidance. First and foremost, electing officials who are fools, and avoiding anyone who asks for sacrifice. How about council pursuing Zimmerman in FL? State police on our freeways. No, thanks. Charter schools. No, let's avoid those. Mr. Thompson, keep your money out of Detroit please, we know how to educate our kids. Mr. Snyder and Mr. Orr, no bankruptcy for us, please. Everything is fine here. Just askM Ms. Howes. She's a CPA. So she's smarter than both our and your auditors. Oh, but a 'bailout'. Yes, please. So we can keep doing what we want.

And thanks again for your hard work. But please don't avoid Detroit's massive avoidance of efforts to address crime and its roots [[social and economic).

[firstandten]

Thank you for your hard work -- and recognizing the work of others.

Lots of hard work does not mean there isn't avoidance. First and foremost, electing officials who are fools, and avoiding anyone who asks for sacrifice. How about council pursuing Zimmerman in FL? State police on our freeways. No, thanks. Charter schools. No, let's avoid those. Mr. Thompson, keep your money out of Detroit please, we know how to educate our kids. Mr. Snyder and Mr. Orr, no bankruptcy for us, please. Everything is fine here. Just askM Ms. Howes. She's a CPA. So she's smarter than both our and your auditors. Oh, but a 'bailout'. Yes, please. So we can keep doing what we want.

And thanks again for your hard work. But please don't avoid Detroit's massive avoidance of efforts to address crime and its roots [[social and economic).

Avoidance... good way of putting it. I guess that's what frustrates me most about Detroit's political leadership avoidance. As much as I disliked Engler he told the school board numerous times to get your house in order... they blew him off and when he took over the district the cries of unfair was deafening. Snyder tells the mayor and council get your act together or I will bring in an EFM, response, more stalling and obstructing. Then Snyder does it. People cry oh how unfair. we can handle our problems just throw some more money at us. Its time Detroit voters stop electing people who tell us how we can avoid our existing problems or better yet tell us there isn't really a problem, its only Lansing/Suburbs/name the entity trying to take our assets.

[sumas]

Yet 5 miles away they are burning books.

One thing I would agree with Mr. Snyder is the importance of community centers,but one that would have an educational twist.

Sumas he was going to set them up in the schools,how far away is the school from you and do you see transportation as an issue in the use of schools as community centers.

The city owns a lot of houses in neighborhoods,if one set up a 501c had the house donated by the city tax exempt and funding received via corporate,or private donations,kinda like a adopt a community center program.

Nothing fancy,functional with internet service,small rotating library between the centers etc.

Or based as a micro public library offshoot of the main public library which would involve probably to much red tape and politics to be productive.

Would this be more realistic in your currant situation?

Actually, we have set up a 501c3 and are looking to purchase property for a community center on our street. All help and positive comments appreciated.

In addition the Boggs charter school is starting up with innovative concepts regarding raising our children.

Butzel center used to have a youth library, closed! Zippo programs. Two large computer labs closed due to funding. Crap they are so underfunded that I can't begin to tell their woes.

Several churches have some great summer youth programs. Due to their funding, limited enrollment.

These kids are all our kids. Thanks for caring, these kids are so cool and needy. Reality!

[Wesley Mouch]

...Several churches have some great summer youth programs. Due to their funding, limited enrollment.

These kids are all our kids. Thanks for caring, these kids are so cool and needy. Reality!

So if you could triple your funding at the cost of 1% of retiree pension payments, would you make the trade? This is the core of what Mr. Orr is doing. Making tough decisions.

I hope some of them will directly or indirectly benefit those who are doing real work to help Detroit long-term.

[rex]

This is the core of what Mr. Orr is doing. Making tough decisions.

Orr isn't making tough decisions or doing Detroiters any favors. Tough for Detroiter decisions maybe.

I think bankruptcy is the wrong tool because it favors secured creditors. As you probably know "secured" creditors under bankruptcy law get paid off before anyone else, and in this case, the secured creditors are mostly the banks that willingly sold Detroit horrible investments they knew were very risky. Those banks shouldn't be rewarded, but in bankruptcy they will be. They can afford the loss and deserve the loss, fuck them.

Then, you're left with the "unsercured" creditors, the biggest of whom are city worker retirees and "bond holders" who are mostly mutual funds, pooled individual investors. Now, the bond holders have insurance, so if they lose out, they are backstopped by their insurers. Also, investors in the bonds presumably had the chance to diversify their investments and didn't throw everything they owned into investing in Detroit, they can handle getting ten cents on the dollar.

But the pensioners, the retirees, when in bankruptcy, they lose their retirement savings and lose their health care, they have no backstop. They weren't making a financial investment, making a gamble they could cover with other investments, they were simply working, doing their jobs, cleaning the streets, processing permits, fighting fires, checking parking meters, plowing snow, etc. And they gave up pay increases over the years for better pensions so they could retire with dignity.

And these pensions, except for a handful of higher up cops and firefighters, are pretty meager. Less than $19,000 a year. That's what they expected to live on from age 65 until they die.

Now, the Michigan constitution protects those pensions, says the state can never fuck with them. So, the Governor of Michigan and the Emergency Manager he put in Detroit [[replaces their democratically elected city council and mayor) knew that the only way they could gut the pensions to pay off the banks was to force bankruptcy, so that's what they did.

So yeah, Detroit needs help, but it shouldn't be on the backs of its city worker retirees who have no other options. Instead, the state of Michigan should re-structure its state wide sales taxes and other taxes to funnel more money to Detroit in the short term. The Federal Government could do a one time bailout. The City of Detroit could sell off some assets, and stop funding big time projects like the new hockey arena.

And above all, they could cancel the bankruptcy and sit down with everyone without the rules about who is "secured" and "unsecured" and do the right thing . . . stiff the banks and protect the people.

[sumas]

Ok, I am confused, "real work"? I have done nothing but praise non profits who pitch in. This has nothing to do with income taxes. Honest I am confused as to your message.

First church funding is private funding.

Second I would never touch pension money. Maybe the city screwed up big time but promises are promises.

Third, I have no issues with Orr. I totally understand the issue about representation, our votes etc. many neighbors would disagree with me. Me I like results. Not thrilled at how fast he did the bankruptcy ploy. He is not wrong though Detroit is broke.

Forth, our kids were promised a free public education and substandard is not good enough.

[sumas]

Thank you Rex, that was a well written dissertation on Detroit finances.

Just hoping everyone remembers our kids need way better schools and public services.