Do people regret the 1967 riot?

[Hermod]

For those who still have the inclination and ability to read, there are two books that inform one regarding the factors that led up to the so called riots and Detroit's decline - " Arc of Justice " by Kevin Boyle and Sugrue's" The Origins of the Urban Crisis: Race and Inequality in Postwar Detroit " . When Snyder says things in the press like " Detroit's problems started in the 1950's " it exemplifies that fact that we set the bar so low when electing our leaders. The one tough nerd took lots of business classes, but he skipped the urban studies.

Urban Studies is based on what some academic thinks WAS. The nerd is thinking of what should BE.

[Eber Brock Ward]

For those who still have the inclination and ability to read, there are two books that inform one regarding the factors that led up to the so called riots and Detroit's decline - " Arc of Justice " by Kevin Boyle and Sugrue's" The Origins of the Urban Crisis: Race and Inequality in Postwar Detroit " . When Snyder says things in the press like " Detroit's problems started in the 1950's " it exemplifies that fact that we set the bar so low when electing our leaders. The one tough nerd took lots of business classes, but he skipped the urban studies.

Sugrue's book is an awful book to learn from if you are trying to look at the issues as objectively as possible. He selectively uses data [[cherry picks) to support his predetermined conclusion, rather than gathering all of the data and letting that guide him to a conclusion.

It is like reading a Michael Moore or Ann Coulter book -- it's just too partisan to deal with at times, to the point where it damages his overall cause.

Generally speaking, folks that laud the Origins of the Urban Crisis are suffering from confirmation bias, IMO.

[sumas]

I was 13 at that time. Random memories-my folks were in Paris and boy was my Dad pissed when European stations showed bombed out towns from WW2 as Detroit. My Dad served in that war and was all over Europe so I guess he knew.

A lot of burbs set up barricades.

[313WX]

Sugrue's book is an awful book to learn from if you are trying to look at the issues as objectively as possible. He selectively uses data [[cherry picks) to support his predetermined conclusion, rather than gathering all of the data and letting that guide him to a conclusion.

It is like reading a Michael Moore or Ann Coulter book -- it's just too partisan to deal with at times, to the point where it damages his overall cause.

Generally speaking, folks that laud the Origins of the Urban Crisis are suffering from confirmation bias, IMO.

What books would you recommend about Detroit's history EBW?

[sumas]

Ahh...interesting memories get stirred. My parents were indeed inundated with urges from Realtors to sell using scare tactics. They never did and in fact my youngest son now owns their home. EEV is still a great place to live. My sister and niece live in EEV too.

[sumas]

For those who still have the inclination and ability to read, there are two books that inform one regarding the factors that led up to the so called riots and Detroit's decline - " Arc of Justice " by Kevin Boyle and Sugrue's" The Origins of the Urban Crisis: Race and Inequality in Postwar Detroit " . When Snyder says things in the press like " Detroit's problems started in the 1950's " it exemplifies that fact that we set the bar so low when electing our leaders. The one tough nerd took lots of business classes, but he skipped the urban studies.

"For those who have the inclination and ability to read" kind of riled me. I have always found most posters on this forum to be articulate, educated and informed!

[marshamusic]

Not sure if I should have started a new thread, but here are some pics of the 67 Riots, I hadn't seen many of them before:

http://doubledeucefire.smugmug.com/E...8212&k=tT9h7S9

[drpoundsign]

I was six years old in Montreal with my parents and other relatives for the World's Fair. Heard every night about a place called 12th Street with the old-school ambulance sirens. My late Mother said later that Grand River was a mass of bricks when we came back across the Windsor Tunnel. Yes, Housing WAS an issue. 12th Street apartments were divided and subdivided like in Chicago. They paid high rent for substandard units. That Hood from Linwood to the Lodge had a high population density. There was Vice and probably Heroin there already [[Elephant in the Room) Another Elephant not brought up here was the Vietnam War..Blacks were NOT in College, maybe not married sooo they had no deferrments. The folks at the Blind Pig at "Ground Zero" were celebrating one of them returning home from a Tour of Duty. The Cops WERE overwhelmingly white save for a few undercovers, like the one who ironically gained enterance to the Blind Pig in question. In 1943 in the First Riot [[more a pogrom with White servicemen and European defense workers beating blacks-that's how most riots Were in those days) Blacks almost all lived East of Woodward on the Near East Side..Black Bottom and Hastings Street. The expansion of the Medical Center and the Miles van der Roehe buildings as well as the Chrysler Freeway and 375 replaced those Slums..and Some houses and many businesses that may have been viable. Same vintage as Brush Park but Not mansions. I think the Grand River Tireman Livernois Triangle Also was Black from Day One..and ironically or Not ironically is now the worst area. Twelfth Street and North End were Jewish, and North Corktown I believe was white with mixed ethnicities. Of course I did not live back then. On 12th "Rosa Parks Blvd" an apiary [[beehives) survives or did survive long after 67. Also a Goodwill-type place run by Nuns where I took some used medical equipment from a Deceased relative in 1988 [[fortified bldg.) They recently tore down the Art Deco Hotel Devur near Ford Hospital [[which was the Front Lines back then). Shame but in the early eighties it looked like low lives were living there. It was also the biggest sniper's nest in the Riot. There were low level disturbances after the MLK assassination in 1968, but the army was preemptively brought out to put a lid on anything major. The steamroom "shvitz" survives on Oakland St which was somewhat hard-hit. Livernois near U of Detroit "Avenue of Fashion" had looting-and that was a GOOD area then. The Last Major Riot?? I dunno bout that. DC And Chicago got hit pretty hard in the wake of MLK the next year. Newark was earlier the same year and pound for pound may have been Worse than the D. Usual Issues..white cops freeways and expansion of their medical center. The whole Central Ward there was/is GONE...and that was at peak..a backwater of 400,000 people bedroom community to NYC with some industry. It was past peak when the hostilities occured. The most extensive study I have seen of our Riot was from Rutger's University in NJ. Harlem Philly, LAs Watts and Brooklyn's Bed Stuy along with little ROCHESTER..in 1964..were earlier disturbances.

A Mouthful I know. I was young but have since looked all of this up.

Remember that Miami had some nasty little riots in the Eighties.

[marshamusic]

I was six years old in Montreal with my parents and other relatives for the World's Fair. Heard every night about a place called 12th Street with the old-school ambulance sirens. My late Mother said later that Grand River was a mass of bricks when we came back across the Windsor Tunnel. Yes, Housing WAS an issue. 12th Street apartments were divided and subdivided like in Chicago. They paid high rent for substandard units. That Hood from Linwood to the Lodge had a high population density. There was Vice and probably Heroin there already [[Elephant in the Room) Another Elephant not brought up here was the Vietnam War..Blacks were NOT in College, maybe not married sooo they had no deferrments. The folks at the Blind Pig at "Ground Zero" were celebrating one of them returning home from a Tour of Duty. The Cops WERE overwhelmingly white save for a few undercovers, like the one who ironically gained enterance to the Blind Pig in question. In 1943 in the First Riot [[more a pogrom with White servicemen and European defense workers beating blacks-that's how most riots Were in those days) Blacks almost all lived East of Woodward on the Near East Side..Black Bottom and Hastings Street. The expansion of the Medical Center and the Miles van der Roehe buildings as well as the Chrysler Freeway and 375 replaced those Slums..and Some houses and many businesses that may have been viable. Same vintage as Brush Park but Not mansions. I think the Grand River Tireman Livernois Triangle Also was Black from Day One..and ironically or Not ironically is now the worst area. Twelfth Street and North End were Jewish, and North Corktown I believe was white with mixed ethnicities. Of course I did not live back then. On 12th "Rosa Parks Blvd" an apiary [[beehives) survives or did survive long after 67. Also a Goodwill-type place run by Nuns where I took some used medical equipment from a Deceased relative in 1988 [[fortified bldg.) They recently tore down the Art Deco Hotel Devur near Ford Hospital [[which was the Front Lines back then). Shame but in the early eighties it looked like low lives were living there. It was also the biggest sniper's nest in the Riot. There were low level disturbances after the MLK assassination in 1968, but the army was preemptively brought out to put a lid on anything major. The steamroom "shvitz" survives on Oakland St which was somewhat hard-hit. Livernois near U of Detroit "Avenue of Fashion" had looting-and that was a GOOD area then. The Last Major Riot?? I dunno bout that. DC And Chicago got hit pretty hard in the wake of MLK the next year. Newark was earlier the same year and pound for pound may have been Worse than the D. Usual Issues..white cops freeways and expansion of their medical center. The whole Central Ward there was/is GONE...and that was at peak..a backwater of 400,000 people bedroom community to NYC with some industry. It was past peak when the hostilities occured. The most extensive study I have seen of our Riot was from Rutger's University in NJ. Harlem Philly, LAs Watts and Brooklyn's Bed Stuy along with little ROCHESTER..in 1964..were earlier disturbances.

A Mouthful I know. I was young but have since looked all of this up.

Remember that Miami had some nasty little riots in the Eighties.

WOW! Like Wow. What a mighty mouthful.

On the day you posted this, I had just read this on very interesting blog that I stumbled upon, called Goats In The Streets:

"Not all blacks were able to afford homes initially but after white flight and redlining ceased post riots,home ownership in the cities increased to almost 90%, and the housing built for factory workers in the 30’s became populated by 1970 with the poor, disabled, and emotionally disturbed that were unable to hold a job. The retired that had only social security and the war veterans who were coming back from Vietnam unable to work due to war trauma also ended up in these structures, since they were often too disabled emotionally to hold a full time job. It took only 3 short years [[1964-1967)and a recession to change the nature of home ownership and create a group that would never own a home."

http://goatsinthestreets.blogspot.com

You have to scroll down aways, past the other blog posts, to get to this paragraph, and the rest of the article on Detroit and the conditions that led to, and followed, the Riots.

Thank you so much for your post; we need more narratives here on Black life and experiences, too.

Btw, you mentioned the Livernois, Tireman, Grand River area; my mother grew up on one of the ABC streets - American, Bryden, and Central, one of the few black enclaves that existed outside of Black Bottom. Do you know more about this area - which was mostly Polish - and how did Blacks find themselves there? I know my grandfather worked at Ford, since probably the 20's; perhaps it was a community of Black Ford workers.

Anyway, thanks for your great narrative. I remember most of what you recounted, as well.

[drpoundsign]

Yes 12th street was Block Busted by greed and fear mongering . "blacks will burglarize you," etc. what's worse, they THEN Raised the price to the African Americans who came in

[old guy]

^ All, very interesting and good reading. Thanks for the information.

[drpoundsign]

I guess those Polish neighborhoods are pretty Old. We tend to think of Hamtramck but, of course, Poletown and Poletown East are/were on the East Side of Detroit itself...and Michigan Central was the Heart of the Polish Community on the West Side. I think there was looting on Hancock there during the Uprising. Quite a few 19th century homes-some still standing-there. PBS ran a show on housing in general around the time of the 08 Crash. They made the point that neighborhoods like Briggs/North Corktown where Blacks were redlined from getting mortgages saw a Lot of unrest during the Riot. What is comitragically ironic, to me is that the former Vaudevillian Globe Theater, built in 1907 on Grand River and Trumbull, and later X Rated, survived the firestorm all around it. The Guard had a machine gun nest on Grand River and 14th St. That theater is long gone now. The Motor City Casino hypes itself up but don't forget that the intersection now called MLK and Rosa Parks Blvd was full of structures looted and wrecked.

..and Yes the poor white Southerners in that very area looted side by side with the Blacks..and Older Blacks were disgusted with the rioters. They tried to protect the DFD with rifles..but there were too many snipers so they retreated.

[drpoundsign]

where, my I ask, was your neighborhood?? I heard that West of Livernois was mostly white even in the Sixties. No??

[Bham1982]

where, my I ask, was your neighborhood?? I heard that West of Livernois was mostly white even in the Sixties. No??

I think west of Livernois was overwhelmingly white until the very late 60's, when there started to be some transition.

There were exceptions here and there, though. 8 Mile/Wyoming was a black neighborhood, for example. But most of the West Side was lily white.

[EastsideAl]

I remember the block-busters even working Indian Village. We had rather recently moved in there before the riot, and were certainly not about to move out. My father had aspired to live there during his whole life of growing up on the east side. But the realtors came around anyway, ringing everyone's doorbells, leaving flyers, etc.

Pretty much all of what they said and did preyed, not very subtly, on fomenting fear of black people [[who they were most definitely NOT afraid to resell the houses to, at a very significant profit margin). But in IV, which had already been surrounded by mostly black neighborhoods for many years, their appeals were of limited effectiveness. Still, some of our neighbors did move, not necessarily in response to the block-busting tactics, but certainly as part of the same fearful reaction as many other white city residents.

My mother, though, used to just slam the door in the real estate guys' faces. I still remember one guy who yelled at her "And what are you going to do when the coloreds move in next door to you?" My mother calmly pointed out to him that our next door neighbors were indeed black, and had lived there longer than we had! "Perhaps you'd like to go talk to them about how dangerous we are."

[marshamusic]

I remember the block-busters even working Indian Village. We had rather recently moved in there before the riot, and were certainly not about to move out. My father had aspired to live there during his whole life of growing up on the east side. But the realtors came around anyway, ringing everyone's doorbells, leaving flyers, etc.

Pretty much all of what they said and did preyed, not very subtly, on fomenting fear of black people [[who they were most definitely NOT afraid to resell the houses to, at a very significant profit margin). But in IV, which had already been surrounded by mostly black neighborhoods for many years, their appeals were of limited effectiveness. Still, some of our neighbors did move, not necessarily in response to the block-busting tactics, but certainly as part of the same fearful reaction as many other white city residents.

My mother, though, used to just slam the door in the real estate guys' faces. I still remember one guy who yelled at her "And what are you going to do when the coloreds move in next door to you?" My mother calmly pointed out to him that our next door neighbors were indeed black, and had lived there longer than we had! "Perhaps you'd like to go talk to them about how dangerous we are."

Thanks for sharing this story. The actual practice of blockbusting and how it was done is a seldom talked about aspect of Detroit neighborhood histories.

Your parents sound like salt of the earth.

[marshamusic]

Marsha, there are multiple reasons for the Detroit exodus. Some are so plain and simple, "white" people just wanted 40 acres and a mule, [[elbow room), another was the crime factor, and of course, another was real estate fear mongering. From what I've experienced, the last was insignificant compare to the first two. One day we'll sit down over a cup of Darjeeling with Buckwheat honey, and compare notes. I'd love to hear more about your Hasting Street experiences and impressions. Who knows, maybe we'll solve the world's racial problems?

Bless your heart, Honky Tonk. You are a gentleman and a scholar.

I write [[and speak) about this period in Detroit, and I want to articulate these varied reasons. Much of my work is about expressing a more accurate, nuanced narrative about the city rather than simplistic ones that I hear from many sides.

There is a constant refrain of "crime was the cause of white flight", and I know that this is true in the latter years of flight [[and Black flight, too), though I am not so sure that it was the cause in the early years of white flight.

There is also the mantra that "racism was the cause of white flight" and I know that this alone is not true. But where it is true, I think we should say so.

I know that the desire for the amenities of the new, suburban housing, compared to the old, packed neighborhoods of Detroit [[yes, it sounds odd now, but that was the reality, back in those days) was also a cause of the "sprawl".

There should be much more emphasis on the move of jobs further and further out to the suburbs, for tax incentives and often to develop new all-on-one-floor production facilities, rather than the multi-storied, old buildings in the city.

If I can say this - without it appearing as if I am blaming whites for the problem - I believe that some of the crime was a by-product of white flight; that is, as homes were "dumped" on the market as whites rushed to get out [[for whatever reason, but sometimes due to active block-busting), Blacks began to move in.

Some, especially the young, reacted to antagonism that they met upon their arrival to the new neighborhoods, and some families, of course, brought the social problems [[juvenile delinquency, etc.) that they were trying to escape, with them. Sometimes, of course, it was a combination of both. The introduction of drugs into the community as a whole, was an overriding cause, I believe.


Honkey Tonk, tea would be great, or I'll see you at one of the events around here. Better yet, maybe a few of us DetroitYes folks could meet up on a Sunday afternoon and hear the Blues on St. Aubin.

And btw [[not so shameless plug), I'm doing another Marsha Music, Live From Hastings Street! presentation at the Downtown Synagogue [[on Griswold and Clifford) on Tuesday, August 20 from 8 -10pm. I'm honored that I've been asked to come and talk about some of these things.

[sumas]

Bless your heart, Honky Tonk. You are a gentleman and a scholar.

I write [[and speak) about this period in Detroit, and I want to articulate these varied reasons. Much of my work is about expressing a more accurate, nuanced narrative about the city rather than simplistic ones that I hear from many sides.

There is a constant refrain of "crime was the cause of white flight", and I know that this is true in the latter years of flight [[and Black flight, too), though I am not so sure that it was the cause in the early years of white flight.

There is also the mantra that "racism was the cause of white flight" and I know that this alone is not true. But where it is true, I think we should say so.

I know that the desire for the amenities of the new, suburban housing, compared to the old, packed neighborhoods of Detroit [[yes, it sounds odd now, but that was the reality, back in those days) was also a cause of the "sprawl".

There should be much more emphasis on the move of jobs further and further out to the suburbs, for tax incentives and often to develop new all-on-one-floor production facilities, rather than the multi-storied, old buildings in the city.

If I can say this - without it appearing as if I am blaming whites for the problem - I believe that some of the crime was a by-product of white flight; that is, as homes were "dumped" on the market as whites rushed to get out [[for whatever reason, but sometimes due to active block-busting), Blacks began to move in.

Some, especially the young, reacted to antagonism that they met upon their arrival to the new neighborhoods, and some families, of course, brought the social problems [[juvenile delinquency, etc.) that they were trying to escape, with them. Sometimes, of course, it was a combination of both. The introduction of drugs into the community as a whole, was an overriding cause, I believe.


Honkey Tonk, tea would be great, or I'll see you at one of the events around here. Better yet, maybe a few of us DetroitYes folks could meet up on a Sunday afternoon and hear the Blues on St. Aubin.

And btw [[not so shameless plug), I'm doing another Marsha Music, Live From Hastings Street! presentation at the Downtown Synagogue [[on Griswold and Clifford) on Tuesday, August 20 from 8 -10pm. I'm honored that I've been asked to come and talk about some of these things.

Well written and appreciate the time spent to discuss the transitions in Detroit.

[drpoundsign]

AS far as good and bad books about the D I heard that "Devil's Night" was Very Prejudicial and Not helpful at all. Ironic that the racist greedhead real estate agents who would bar their OWN door-or more likely make their neighbors bar Theirs against Minorities-catalyzed the Transition. Famous Line from the time...Boy asks his Dad "how long before they reach Gross Pointe?" During the Height of the Riots.

"'bout Thirty Years, Son." Accurate

Yes, Islandview, Kettering and Houston Whittier I would think underwent racial transition around the time Black Bottom and Hastings were destroyed. There Was some looting and a little burning on the Avenue of Fashion Section of Livernois near University of Detroit.

[IrishSpartan]

AS far as good and bad books about the D I heard that "Devil's Night" was Very Prejudicial and Not helpful at all. Ironic that the racist greedhead real estate agents who would bar their OWN door-or more likely make their neighbors bar Theirs against Minorities-catalyzed the Transition. Famous Line from the time...Boy asks his Dad "how long before they reach Gross Pointe?" During the Height of the Riots.

"'bout Thirty Years, Son." Accurate

Yes, Islandview, Kettering and Houston Whittier I would think underwent racial transition around the time Black Bottom and Hastings were destroyed. There Was some looting and a little burning on the Avenue of Fashion Section of Livernois near University of Detroit.

I'm not sure what area you are referring to as Houston Whittier. If you mean any of the neighborhoods along the street Houston Whittier racial transition didn't begin to occur until the mid-1970's or late-1970's. The neighborhoods north of Houston Whittier were still over 80% White in the early 1980's. Lots of Germans and Italians still there, but about to get out as the decade continued.

[Smirnoff]

Forced my parents to get the hell out of dodge.....house was paid.

Wonder who owns the property now, many vacant homes & now empty lots on our old block.

[piczka]

Put this post to an end. We all regret our past mistakes. I am sure people regret the second world war , Korea and Viet Nam not that these can ever be compared to the Detroit race riots. It was the thing to do at the time according to some. History will tell whether it bears any fruit. Let us move on with the most recent soup du jour, saving our beautiful city.