Wayne State and their never ending tuition increases

[GPCharles]

One of the costs faced by all institutions of higher learning is the high cost of health care for their employees, both faculty and staff. For every university president, there are 20 maintenance people. They [[probably) all get health care insurance coverage, which as we all know, isn't cheap, even it its stripped down.

[Bham1982]

Not saying UM AA isn't a great school, but...and this is, of course, only anecdotal... when my UM friends claim to be "ivy" or on the same level as Ivy...or the Harvard of the West ... my Ivy friends snigger about UM being the entire Ivy league's safety school...[[and apparently claiming to be "the Harvard" of anything is a joke in and of itself...to those that went elsewhere.)

U-M, while excellent, is a safety school for those applying to the Ivy League.
That doesn't mean you can't get the same quality education and job opportunities, but take a look at the comparative admissions statistics, and ask out-of-state U-M students about U-M's reputation back in NY, NJ or wherever.

Michigan is basically more like a Wisconsin, UCLA, or North Carolina [[which is to say excellent), but IMO it tends to look at itself as more of a "Midwest Ivy" or something, which isn't supported by any data.

[48009]

There were probably 70 students from my high school [[about a third of the class) accepted into Michigan, so it wasn't considered some incredible accomplishment.

Cranbrook, Country Day [[I'd say International Acad is possible but you said 15 years ago, and their first class was 2000) or completely fabricated BS?

Michigan is basically more like a Wisconsin, UCLA, or North Carolina [[which is to say excellent), but IMO it tends to look at itself as more of a "Midwest Ivy" or something, which isn't supported by any data.

For someone who applied to both its undergrad and law schools, you sure are going out of your way to discount Ann Arbor.

[Zug]

Bham is right. I find that Wayne State has a decent regional reputation. It's more neutral than anything. Outside of the region, I find that people just never heard of WSU...not that it has a bad reputation. And that's mainly because it does not have a city or state name in its name or a well known sports team. Most people do not really know much about non-regional universities other than those things. I find that the most common complaints about Wayne State are pretty much the same complaints for any university:

- Grad students teach undergrads for many classes

- Professors are paid too much [[professors need to keep up teaching, research, and advising duties...it can be overwhelming and takes lots of brain power. In my opinion, jobs that require a PhD and has a diverse set of challenging duties that are constantly evaluated deserve to be well paid.)

- Too much is spent on research [[which is not really true, because research usually supports universities).

- The administration is top heavy [[which is easy to say, but is actually tough to cut. Not because people don't want to lose cushy jobs, but because universities are extremely complex and requires many administrators to coordinate and manage activities)

- There are too many departments, and some should get cut [[This is a classic argument by those that just do not see the importance of general education requirements. They see college more as a trade school and not really a place to get educated.)

- Tuition is too much [[unless you're talking about community college, it will not be cheap)

You can pay back student loans under income-based plans now. However, they still take a long time to pay that way...and you're in massive debt for a couple decades. I guess it's not as bad as just a few years ago when these plans did not exist. But that is no comfort to students still trying to get educated and seeing their debts rise.

[Bham1982]

Cranbrook or Country Day or completely fabricated BS?.

Bloomfield Hills Andover. I'm guessing Cranbrook and Country Day have far fewer kids going to Michigan than Andover, because they have more rich kids going to small private colleges. You have a ton of Cranbrook kids going to places like Kenyon or Bowdoin. Andover didn't have that as much, and was more U-M and MSU.

For someone who applied to both its undergrad and law schools, you sure are going out of your way to discount Ann Arbor.

Ann Arbor is obviously a fantastic school. I'm not discounting the school; I'm saying it doesn't have remotely similar admissions standards as Ivy League schools and their equivalents.

[noise]

What a couple of sad, Coleman Young-esque excuses. Grand Valley 6-year grad rate: 63%, Wayne 6-year grad rate: 27%

That's the [[white) right wingers on the west side of the state fault? That is the saddest excuse I've ever heard. What a pathetic institution if even the staff [[which Dr Jeff claims to be) is race bating and scapegoating. Just, wow.

The difference is that there's factual basis for their assessment. Alternately, you're ignoring an immense amount of information to focus on one arbitrary statistic.

[noise]

Michigan is basically more like a Wisconsin, UCLA, or North Carolina [[which is to say excellent), but IMO it tends to look at itself as more of a "Midwest Ivy" or something, which isn't supported by any data.

Actually, it was referred to as a "Public Ivy" in 1985. Not so much its own opinion.

[noise]

"According to the 2012 Academic Ranking of World Universities, Wayne State University ranked in the 301-400 range worldwide, placing in the same tier as Clemson University, Georgetown University,Indiana University – Purdue University Indianapolis, Syracuse University and Wake Forest University, among others."

http://www.shanghairanking.com/ARWU2012.html

[48009]

Bloomfield Hills Andover.

70 kids would have been, what, 30-40% of your graduating class? According to the freep's database, the ACT avg for Andover this past year was 23.7 and nearly a third aren't even ready for college. So all of the college ready grads get into Michigan? Doubtful. Maybe a couple dozen but 70? Not a chance.

[noise]

70 kids would have been, what, 30-40% of your graduating class? According to the freep's database, the ACT avg for Andover this past year was 23.7 and nearly a third aren't even ready for college. So all of the college ready grads get into Michigan? Doubtful. Maybe a couple dozen but 70? Not a chance.

You should stick to making false claims about WSU's accreditations that you're unwilling to defend.

[48009]

You should stick to making false claims about WSU's accreditations that you're unwilling to defend.

Just a rumor I heard. And to be honest, it's not hard to believe with everything else wrong with that school.

[noise]

In Today@Wayne:

WSU breakthrough research of essential molecule reveals important targets in diabetes and obesity

And if you're interested:

http://research.wayne.edu/rwnews/

[noise]

Just a rumor I heard. And to be honest, it's not hard to believe with everything else wrong with that school.

I think your view of WSU is rather myopic in favor of ignoring all relevant comparisons.

[drjeff]

U-M, while excellent, is a safety school for those applying to the Ivy League.
That doesn't mean you can't get the same quality education and job opportunities, but take a look at the comparative admissions statistics, and ask out-of-state U-M students about U-M's reputation back in NY, NJ or wherever.

Michigan is basically more like a Wisconsin, UCLA, or North Carolina [[which is to say excellent), but IMO it tends to look at itself as more of a "Midwest Ivy" or something, which isn't supported by any data.

THIS. I was accepted to UM in the late 80s [[because my parents forced me to apply there) but went to Johns Hopkins instead. I did later go to UM for grad school and got my Ph.D. there. I also did postdoctoral work there and spent 12 years total on campus. It's a great school, but there are a whole lot of people, on campus and off, who are delusional about it being equal to the great private universities. It's by far the best school in Michigan, and among the best public universities in the country, but it is not even in the same ballpark as Harvard, Stanford, or Hopkins. Brown, maybe.

[Bham1982]

Actually, it was referred to as a "Public Ivy" in 1985. Not so much its own opinion.

There is no such thing as a "public ivy". There are many, many schools that have been referred to as such; that doesn't mean they have equivalent standards.

[drjeff]

Just a rumor I heard. And to be honest, it's not hard to believe with everything else wrong with that school.

So where did you go to school, since you feel compelled to attacked WSU when you obviously know little to nothing about it?

[Bham1982]

70 kids would have been, what, 30-40% of your graduating class? According to the freep's database, the ACT avg for Andover this past year was 23.7 and nearly a third aren't even ready for college. So all of the college ready grads get into Michigan? Doubtful. Maybe a couple dozen but 70? Not a chance.

I didn't graduate from Andover two weeks ago; I graduated 14 years ago.

I have no idea what average ACTs were back then, but assuming they were the same, it would definitely be possible. A 28 would get you in, so if the distribution was highly stratified, then it would be very possible. The graduating class was around 250 back then, I think.

[48009]

The republicans who run the state do not like WSU, probably because of its location. They're busy throwing money at Grand Valley, which really is a third rate school, because it's in right wing stronghold western Michigan.

Details please. And how does this impact Wayne?

I recently read that the state is contributing large sums towards university projects in Flint [[and Saginaw?). Neither of which are republican strong holds and a long ways from GR.

[motz]

In Today@Wayne:

WSU breakthrough research of essential molecule reveals important targets in diabetes and obesity

And if you're interested:

http://research.wayne.edu/rwnews/

48009, can you please make wildly inaccurate claims regarding this statistic based on rumors you heard from "a friend"? I really want to know what you can come up with in regards to this, it'll be a great insight into the mind of someone whose arguments are based merely in hear-say and inability to analyze facts based on a context given [[specifically you trying to use 2010 statistics to argue with someone who graduated almost 15 years ago)

[drjeff]

Details please. And how does this impact Wayne?

I recently read that the state is contributing large sums towards university projects in Flint [[and Saginaw?). Neither of which are republican strong holds and a long ways from GR.

It impacts WSU because there is a fixed amount of money to be spread among the public universities. The three research universities require a lot more investment than the strictly undergraduate teaching universities like GVSU. So throwing more money at them while taking it away from WSU, which the legislature has done, obviously hurts WSU in a big way.

Teaching is not that difficult. Balancing teaching with running a federally funded research program, which is a requirement at the research universities, is very difficult. And the faculty who can do so are in very high demand.

[48009]

48009, can you please make wildly inaccurate claims regarding this statistic based on rumors you heard from "a friend"? I really want to know what you can come up with in regards to this, it'll be a great insight into the mind of someone whose arguments are based merely in hear-say and inability to analyze facts based on a context given [[specifically you trying to use 2010 statistics to argue with someone who graduated almost 15 years ago)

Obviously the med school chatter is hear-say, or it would be all over the news.

Bham picked "70 kids" out of thin air, in an attempt to make Ann Arbor seem pedestrian. I posted verifiable statistics, that show what kind of school Andover truly is. Even with Andover’s propensity to contain many UM legacies, 30% of any class, of any year getting accepted is complete bs. You can dislike the obnoxious grads or students if you’d like, but Michigan might be the state’s greatest asset. Wayne State is a dump where ¾ of the avg class is there to watch the clock and collect their refund check.

[48009]

It impacts WSU because there is a fixed amount of money to be spread among the public universities. The three research universities require a lot more investment than the strictly undergraduate teaching universities like GVSU. So throwing more money at them while taking it away from WSU, which the legislature has done, obviously hurts WSU in a big way.

Teaching is not that difficult. Balancing teaching with running a federally funded research program, which is a requirement at the research universities, is very difficult. And the faculty who can do so are in very high demand.

So you hate competition. Especially competition that is doing a FAR better job at graduating their students than you. Got it. I have zero ties to Grand Rapids or Grand Valley and no political affiliation with any republicans, but I see nothing wrong with them bolstering an anchor university near GR. WSU had a pretty massive head start on GVSU and its undergrad program is in the toilet. Accountability seems to be lacking in the halls of WSU.

[Bham1982]

Bham picked "70 kids" out of thin air, in an attempt to make Ann Arbor seem pedestrian.

No, Andover published the acceptances, by school, following graduation. They published both acceptances and matriculation.

And stop projecting your own issues. No one claimed that Ann Arbor was "pedestrian", whether there are 7 kids or 700 kids from one high school. There are tons of kids from Stuyevsant [[a public high school in NYC) at Harvard, it doesn't mean Harvard is "pedestrian".

I posted verifiable statistics, that show what kind of school Andover truly is. Even with Andover’s propensity to contain many UM legacies, 30% of any class, any year is completely unrealistic.

No, your own stats show it's completely realistic. U-M accepts students with 28 or higher [[and many lower if they're minorities, legacies, or athletes), so if a school's average is 24, it's obviously quite realistic that one-third of students could gain admission to a school requiring around 28.

And for the rest of your post, your trashing of Wayne, you're projecting your own issues again. Good luck with that.

[drjeff]

So you hate competition. Especially competition that is doing a FAR better job at graduating their students than you. Got it.

And apparently you never went to college, because your reading comprehension is non-existent.

[Bham1982]

Just for fun, here are the acceptance rates for 2013, for a number of top-ranked schools-

Stanford- 5.7%
Harvard- 5.8%
Yale- 6.7%
Columbia- 6.8%
Princeton- 7.3%

In contrast, U-M has an acceptance rate of 40%, with roughly 30% acceptance rate for out-of-state. And I would bet that U-M's applicant pool is somewhat less accomplished.

I would say that's an enormous difference in terms of selectivity relative to the highest ranked instructions in the country. There are easily 50 schools accepting less than 25% of their students, and a dozen or so with single-digit acceptance rates.