Plans unveiled for $650M Red Wings arena, entertainment district in Detroit

**gazhekwe** · June-20-13, 03:31 PM

The Eddystone hotel is in there, newly renovated, and the Kresge office buildings, the Masonic Temple...

**EL Jimbo** · June-20-13, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by Khorasaurus

Do Ford Field and Comerica lag in suite revenue? Would those same Bloomfield residents buy Pistons suites if they played Downtown? And how do you respond to the Wings outdrawing the Pistons this past year by 6,000 people per game? And the Pistons being lumped with places like Sacramento in terms of NBA attendance?

As for Novi and Farmington Hills, it isn't about distance, it's about how easy it is to drive there. Downtown is a quick shot down the Lodge or I-96. Auburn Hills requires a long slog up Telegraph, then over on Square Lake, then up I-75. And if you Google Maps the distance from various places in the two communities to Auburn Hills or Downtown, they come up with similar times [[without traffic). Which is to say that even though Downtown is further as the crow flies, it is easier to get to.

This times a bazillion. I used to live in South Lyon. The last time I went to the Palace was for a Pistons playoff game back in 2003. We left TWO HOURS before tip off of a Wednesday even game. By the time we waited in line on I-75 to get to to the off-ramp, get down the off-ramp move the quarter mile down M-24 to the parking lot entrance, park, get in the building and get to our seats...there were 4 minutes left in the 1st quarter.

The Palace is the opposite of convenient for people even in Oakland County. Compare that to the 40 minutes, even in bad traffic it typically took me to get downtown from South Lyon at the time.

Bham is just clowning with his argument that the Palace is more convenient.

Also, the primary reason that the Palace is so profitable is not location. It is because it has very little competition in its market. Most arena rock tours are designed to sell upwards of 20,000 tickets or so.

A few more can handle a 35,000 or more seat venue like Comerica Park, but dates are very limited because it is an outdoor venue and the Tigers' schedule. It provides next to zero competition to the Palace.

Only a very small group of artists can fill Ford Field so it is not really a major player in the concert market either.

The only other venue left that "competes" with the Palace in that target venue size for most big money concerts is JLA. And that place is decrepit and is not attractive to fans, promoters, or artists because of the poor quality of facilities.

Therefore, essentially you have one of the largest markets in the country being supported by only 1 arena sized concert hall. That lack of competition keeps the Palace booked and profitable year round. It has NOTHING to do with its location.

In fact, a new, modern arena in downtown Detroit is going to actually test just how good a venue the Palace is for the first time in decades because the Palace will finally have year-round competition that can stand toe to toe with it from a facilities perspective. THEN we will see just how convenient the Palace is and how lucrative it could be.

**EL Jimbo** · June-20-13, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by gazhekwe

The Eddystone hotel is in there, newly renovated, and the Kresge office buildings, the Masonic Temple...

If worse came to worse, they could move them just like they moved the Gem when CoPa was built.

**emu steve** · June-20-13, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by EL Jimbo

Also, the primary reason that the Palace is so profitable is not location. It is because it has very little competition in its market.

In fact, a new, modern arena in downtown Detroit is going to actually test just how good a venue the Palace is for the first time in decades because the Palace will finally have year-round competition that can stand toe to toe with it from a facilities perspective. THEN we will see just how convenient the Palace is and how lucrative it could be.

We are going to test free market entertainment choices with consumers voting with their wallets.

This should yield some empirical data on consumer choices [[i.e., how many concerts are at the Palace and how many at the new arena) from which we can infer consumer preferences.

That is how we do things in America.

Consumers ultimately make their voices heard through their spending behaviors.

**Zug** · June-20-13, 05:19 PM

I think it's misleading to use revenue or other measures of "success" to automatically mean it's convenient. It's the best mid-size sports/concert venue in Michigan/Norhwest Ohio/Southern Ontario. Therefore people will have events there. The Joe can't compete as a venue. Ford Field is simply too large for most events. The other indoor venues are relatively small [[i.e. Fox, Fillmore). A nice venue in a populous area will get concerts and other events simply because it is the best option. I can just about guarantee that if a new arena is built at Woodward/75 that it will be more successful than the Palace. Will it be because it is more convenient? No. It will be because it is brand spanking new with all the best features and will be the new #1 mid-size event venue in the region.

In my opinion, convenience is reflected in ease of access [[either by car or public transportation), distance traveled, and lodging [[if you're from out of town) a lot more than it is reflected in revenue. And on all accounts, for most patrons, downtown is the more convenient option.

There's nothing wrong with the Palace. It is a very nice place and has aged very gracefully [[and has had nice recent improvements too). And some people judge convenience by the least amount of time one has to walk from a parking spot to their seat and back again. If using just that...then yes, the Palace is probably more convenient. But in terms of drive time, distance, and lodging...downtown wins hands down. Then throw in the ability to actually do other stuff if one chooses...and I don't see how anyone can defend the Palace as more convenient for most Metro Detroiters or Michiganians.

**Zug** · June-20-13, 05:22 PM

Sorry El Jimbo...I missed that there was a 6th page of this thread until I posted, and many of our thoughts mirror one another. Didn't mean to make it look like I just didn't read yours, lol.

48009 · June-21-13, 07:44 AM

Too much delusional partisan bias in this thread. Do you guys realize the stigma associated with Detroit on a statewide, regional and national level? It's known as and still very much resembles [[optically) a WAR ZONE. Many people avoid it like the plague. Because of this, The Palace will continue to be a major player even after the new arena is built. Guaranteed.

**TexasT** · June-21-13, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by 48009

Too much delusional partisan bias in this thread. Do you guys realize the stigma associated with Detroit on a statewide, regional and national level? It's known as and still very much resembles [[optically) a WAR ZONE. Many people avoid it like the plague. Because of this, The Palace will continue to be a major player even after the new arena is built. Guaranteed.

Don't the Tigers have some of the best attendance in the MLB? I don't think people avoid downtown Detroit to the extent you think.

I think the 7.2 Square Mile report put annual out-of-town visitors to greater downtown Detroit at 10M people.

EDIT: From the report:

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**bailey** · June-21-13, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by 48009

Too much delusional partisan bias in this thread. Do you guys realize the stigma associated with Detroit on a statewide, regional and national level? It's known as and still very much resembles [[optically) a WAR ZONE. Many people avoid it like the plague. Because of this, The Palace will continue to be a major player even after the new arena is built. Guaranteed.

I say this not to be a dick but to communicate a point. Yours is by far the most ignorant post on this thread and the one the MOST infused with delusional bias.

Get in your car and drive downtown today. Sit in Campus Martius and tell me anything you just said reflects today's reality.

It's not 1989. Stop pretending it is.

The palace's only advantage is that it's the only player in a very small, backwater pond.

**emu steve** · June-21-13, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

I say this not to be a dick but to communicate a point. Yours is by far the most ignorant post on this thread and the one the MOST infused with delusional bias.

Get in your car and drive downtown today. Sit in Campus Martius and tell me anything you just said reflects today's reality.

It's not 1989. Stop pretending it is.

The palace's only advantage is that it's the only player in a very small, backwater pond.

I agree there seems to be two sides, those who are pro-Detroit, central city of the metro area, who would like to see things Detroit-related such as the new arena, M-1 rail, 'Gilbertville', midtown, WSU, etc. succeed and there seem to be those from Oakland County who seem to have the pro-suburban bias favoring regional things [[such as arena, stadia, etc.) in the 'burbs.

As there has been no suggestions to build facilities in Wayne County, but outside Detroit [[e.g., Dearborn), the battle seems to be downtown Detroit vs. Oakland County.

And, of course, Oakland County lost the Lions and could lose the Pistons [[check back in a few years for an update).

While there is no 'right or wrong' answer, mostly personal preferences, but I dare say most stadia and arena in recent years are being built in the central city and not the suburbs.

I would think that the trend is continuing and the days of K.C. putting a baseball stadium out somewhere way out or the Patriots playing far from Boston is a relic of the age of suburbanization.

We have gone full circle from central city hosting stadia and arena [[e.g., Tiger Stadium, Olympia, Cobo Arena, etc.) to suburbs [[e.g., Silverdome, Palace, etc.) back to Central City [[e.g., Ford Field, new Ilitch arena, etc.).

I and others have made this statement and I believe it to be true:

I do not know of a single American city which will have a MLB stadium, NFL stadium, and NHL arena within walking distance of each other.

Maybe Cleveland???? EDIT: Browns Stadium is ONE MILE from the Quicken Loans.

Regardless, the sports and entertainment choices available to those who park their car near Woodward and the Fisher will be truly breathtaking. [[there are other cultural events beside sports and concerts in the immediate area).

**southen** · June-21-13, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by 48009

Too much delusional partisan bias in this thread. Do you guys realize the stigma associated with Detroit on a statewide, regional and national level? It's known as and still very much resembles [[optically) a WAR ZONE. Many people avoid it like the plague. Because of this, The Palace will continue to be a major player even after the new arena is built. Guaranteed.

must be the same 40,000 brave souls venturing into the war zone for each tigers game... how in the world do the tigers, red wings, lions, fox theater, state theater, max, and opera house ever sell out events? don't they know there's a stigma surrounding detroit. yes, the bias truly lies with us...

**emu steve** · June-21-13, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by southen

must be the same 40,000 brave souls venturing into the war zone for each tigers game... how in the world do the tigers, red wings, lions, fox theater, state theater, max, and opera house ever sell out events? don't they know there's a stigma surrounding detroit. yes, the bias truly lies with us...

good point.

Folks need to quit making straw man arguments.

This is not like 'old days' when going to the Olympia might not be safe experience [[I can attest to that!!!! - I had a bad experience at an AFTERNOON Red Wings game many, many years ago).

But going to Comerica, Ford Field, etc. is not any great threat to ones safety and well being.

48009 · June-21-13, 09:42 AM

I'm far from anti-Detroit. My family goes into the city regularly. But too many of you refuse to take off your blinders. I'm happy the arena is being built. But acting as if most people from Midland, Lapeer, Okemos, Owosso or wherever are in any way eager to travel to Detroit is delusional.

**ccal** · June-21-13, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by southen

must be the same 40,000 brave souls venturing into the war zone for each tigers game... how in the world do the tigers, red wings, lions, fox theater, state theater, max, and opera house ever sell out events? don't they know there's a stigma surrounding detroit. yes, the bias truly lies with us...

Gosh,they sure are brave. It's no wonder so many of them make it back to their homes alive......lol

**rb336** · June-21-13, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by gazhekwe

The Eddystone hotel is in there, newly renovated, and the Kresge office buildings, the Masonic Temple...

Those will not necessarily be demolished, esp. not the Temple, but be incorporated into the new developments.

**bailey** · June-21-13, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by 48009

I'm far from anti-Detroit. My family goes into the city regularly. But too many of you refuse to take off your blinders. I'm happy the arena is being built. But acting as if most people from Midland, Lapeer, Okemos, Owosso or wherever are in any way eager to travel to Detroit is delusional.

I don' think anyone is "eager" to travel an hour or more for a concert or game or whatever. I do however think they make more of an event out of a trip downtown than to the Palace. Coming into town, one budgets time for meals and beers before and after... going to the palace you're budgeting time for traffic [[and looking to leave before the event is over to "beat" it.)

Further, I think you are delusional if you think ANYONE is "eager" to travel to the Palace. They go there by default.

**emu steve** · June-21-13, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

I don' think anyone is "eager" to travel an hour or more for a concert. I do however think they make more of an event out of a trip downtown than to the Palace. Coming into town, one budgets time for meals and beers before and after... going to the palace you're budgeting time for traffic [[and looking to leave before the event is over to "beat" it.)

Further, I think you are delusional if you think ANYONE is "eager" to travel to the Palace. They go there by default.

We are back to the old argument when there was the Silverdome and Ford Field, to be:

Would you rather attend a FB game at the Silverdome or Ford Field? [[both are domed so weather isn't a consideration).

Which has the better GameDay experience?

Which is easier to leave after the event?

Some discussions are purely hyptherical but this one is not.

There was Lions FB played at the Silverdome until the year Ford Field was complete.

The only confounding variable was that Ford Field was new and Silverdome had some age, otherwise, the other questions remain like GameDay experience, parking, access to and from the stadium, etc.

**bailey** · June-21-13, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by emu steve

We are back to the old argument when there was the Silverdome and Ford Field, to be:

Would you rather attend a FB game at the Silverdome or Ford Field? [[both are domed so weather isn't a consideration).

Which has the better GameDay experience?

Which is easier to leave after the event?

Some discussions are purely hyptherical but this one is not.

There was Lions FB played at the Silverdome until the year Ford Field was complete.

The only confounding variable was that Ford Field was new and Silverdome had some age, otherwise, the other questions remain like GameDay experience, parking, access to and from the stadium, etc.

Hasn't that debate been soundly settled in favor of Ford Field?

**rb336** · June-21-13, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by emu steve

I'm wondering what would look best for Woodward Ave.

My guess? Brick with an open feeling including ground-level windows, possible street-level storefronts.

Here are some stuff the alleged architects have done:

http://hksinc.com/#/sports/experienc...llery=34&id=12

http://www.nbbj.com/markets/sports/#next

[[Both do urban design, and nbbj does a lot of "green" architecture - take a look at their urban master plans)

**TexasT** · June-21-13, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by rb336

My guess? Brick with an open feeling including ground-level windows, possible street-level storefronts.

Here are some stuff the alleged architects have done:

http://hksinc.com/#/sports/experienc...llery=34&id=12

http://www.nbbj.com/markets/sports/#next

[[Both do urban design, and nbbj does a lot of "green" architecture - take a look at their urban master plans)

HKS recently did my undergrad's baseball park back in Texas. Everyone was really happy with the results.

**southen** · June-21-13, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by 48009

I'm far from anti-Detroit. My family goes into the city regularly. But too many of you refuse to take off your blinders. I'm happy the arena is being built. But acting as if most people from Midland, Lapeer, Okemos, Owosso or wherever are in any way eager to travel to Detroit is delusional.

its just as delusional to think they are "eager" to drive to the palace. they are eager for whatever event they are going to. having that event in detroit allows for more opportunities to have fun. having it at the palace means bumper to bumper traffic in a sterile environment.

i think your argument is pretty much bunk based on how many sold out events this city hosts in multiple venues/spaces on a yearly basis. detroit has never had a problem bringing people down for sports or concerts and now it will have a state of the art arena to draw even more in. you honestly think the people willing to drive to auburn hills and pay good money to see kid rock wont travel 30-40 minutes further down the road to see him in detroit? come on.

**tkelly1986** · June-21-13, 10:54 AM

What are the chances the Red Wings practice rink is also located on this site?

**TexasT** · June-21-13, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by tkelly1986

What are the chances the Red Wings practice rink is also located on this site?

The architect says that is still up in the air at the moment. Doesn't answer your question as to the odds but it's not decided at the moment.

**Khorasaurus** · June-21-13, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by 48009

I'm far from anti-Detroit. My family goes into the city regularly. But too many of you refuse to take off your blinders. I'm happy the arena is being built. But acting as if most people from Midland, Lapeer, Okemos, Owosso or wherever are in any way eager to travel to Detroit is delusional.

I grew up in Grand Rapids, so I have some out-state perspective.

Growing up, we went to Detroit all the time, both for games/events, and sometimes just to ride the people mover, eat flaming cheese, and go to Canada and buy candy. And this was in the 90s when Downtown Detroit was not nearly as nice as it is now.

We went to the Palace literally once. And that was because 10 year old me wanted to go a Pistons game for my birthday.

I understand that for people on the I-75 corridor north of the metro area, the Palace is more convenient. But for the vast majority of the state [[and for a lot of the wealth of out-state Michigan...remember that part of the discussion?) the Palace is not somewhere they make a point of going to unless there's a particular event they want to see.

**Khorasaurus** · June-21-13, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by emu steve

I do not know of a single American city which will have a MLB stadium, NFL stadium, and NHL arena within walking distance of each other.

Philadelphia has all their sports facilities in one place [[Football, baseball, and hockey/basketball). They are technically in the city limits [[and accessible via their subway), but they sit by themselves in a parking lot off a freeway by the airport.