Plans unveiled for $650M Red Wings arena, entertainment district in Detroit

[48205to24]

What will happen to Joe Louis Arena, will Gilbert buy it too?

[bailey]

Why would an arena right of the freeway, smack dam in in the middle of the state's economic and wealth center, be "hard to get to" or "not convenient to anyone".

It's certainly convenient to more corporations, and more upper-income households than an arena located downtown. There's wealth in all directions from the Palace, and in no directions from downtown.

Located near? sure. a pain in the ass to get into and out of? absolutely. Fucking dreadful for anyone NOT located in northern or central oakland county? absolutely. It's a nice, professionally run venue that caters to a exurban crowd. Which clearly works. However, as someone up the thread noted, and I will confirm through direct personal experience, we have trouble GIVING tickets away to the suite for events...especially weeknight events. and frankly me personally... it would take a REALLY special reason to get me to the Palace. And I'm sure that is true of Northern oakland county residents and Ford Field. However, I do think it's a bit silly to have a "detroit" team playing a good 40 minutes from Detroit.

[Spartan]

Why would an arena right of the freeway, smack dam in in the middle of the state's economic and wealth center, be "hard to get to" or "not convenient to anyone".

It's certainly convenient to more corporations, and more upper-income households than an arena located downtown. There's wealth in all directions from the Palace, and in no directions from downtown.

You have a strange definition of "in the middle." The Palace is bordering on the outskirts of Metro-Detroit. I'd venture that 75% of the population in the area lives south of the Palace, if not more. There is a good amount of wealth in southern Oakland County [[Bloomfield, for example) and along the shore [[Grosse Pointe, for example).

As was said already, it's right off the freeway but it takes 10-15+ minutes just to get on and off during events, and there's almost nothing around it if you want to grab food or drink before/after the game.

I wouldn't say it's more convenient to most corporations either. Many of the corps in the area are located in Southfield, Livonia/Plymouth area and in Detroit proper [[plus Ford in Dearborn). All of those areas are closer to, or as closes as, Detroit than to Auburn Hills. Think about it from a corporation point-of-view too. Which would be easier/more desirable?

1 - Put your client up in a hotel somewhere in Auburn Hills. Cart them around to a nice restaurant somewhere in a car for 10-15 minutes, then to the Palace for the basketball game. Afterward, take them back to the hotel, or out for some cocktails.

2 - Get your client a hotel a few blocks from the arena, take them out for a nice dinner within a couple-hundred yards, walk or take a short cab ride over to the arena. Head a couple blocks over for a cocktail and then back to the hotel, all within a half-mile of each other.

Let's not forget that Detroit is much closer to the airport than Auburn Hills as well.

[Khorasaurus]

Why would an arena right of the freeway, smack dam in in the middle of the state's economic and wealth center, be "hard to get to" or "not convenient to anyone".

It's certainly convenient to more corporations, and more upper-income households than an arena located downtown. There's wealth in all directions from the Palace, and in no directions from downtown.

The Palace is very hard to get to from anywhere that isn't northern Oakland County and northwestern Macomb County, which is like 5% of the region's population and maybe 20% of its wealth. It is very hard to get to from rich and/or business heavy areas like Canton, Farmington Hills, Novi, Warren, Ann Arbor, Dearborn, Grosse Pointe, etc, not to mention very far away from the million + people who live Downriver.

Additionally, it's not fun to go to unless the Pistons are winning, because there is nothing else to do in the area at all. As I said, it is literally in a garbage dump.

Because of the way our road system works, Downtown Detroit is easy to get to even for people who live in far-flung suburbs. Auburn Hills is difficult to get to unless you live nearby or directly along the I-75 or M-59 corridors. And for I-75, once you get south of about 14 Mile, Downtown is closer and more convenient.

[Khorasaurus]

Fox 2 this morning showed a quick shot of a map showing what I think was the footprint of the arena, which extended all the way to Clifford/Cass. That's bad news for the Eddystone and Harbor Light buildings.

On the other hand, the bigger the arena footprint, the less area Ilitch can use for surface parking lots.

[emu steve]

There are no parallels between Detroit and DC. They couldn't have more different economic and land use norms.


Yeah, they spent $700 million in taxpayer subsidies, primarily TIF and PILOT monies [[so basically property taxes).


Which is fine, if true, but still means DC taxpayers paid $700 million for a baseball park, instead of, say $700 million on schools. The fact that the debt service is being paid off is nice, but doesn't affect the initial subsidy. The "excess funds" are the property taxes that would have been collected anyway if there were no stadium.



DC is not making money on the stadium. They're paying off the debt service. And the development has nothing to do with the stadium. All the office buildings were built in that area because of the massive expansion of the federal govt., which feeds office space needs in Central DC. If anything, a baseball park would be a hinderance to office development.



DC diverted $700 million in taxpayer dollars to the stadium, all of which could have been spent on something else, such as schools. Property taxes would obviously still be collected on all the new office buildings, even if there were no stadium. If anything, you would probably have more property tax revenue, because a prime space for offices wouldn't be wasted on a baseball field and accompanying parking.

I disagree with you point by point but I don't want to get off topic for the new arena in Detroit.

[southen]

Fox 2 this morning showed a quick shot of a map showing what I think was the footprint of the arena, which extended all the way to Clifford/Cass. That's bad news for the Eddystone and Harbor Light buildings.

On the other hand, the bigger the arena footprint, the less area Ilitch can use for surface parking lots.

we need more details. if you look at that footprint then look at where the joe currently is you can see that the footprint is MUCH larger than what they will need for the arena. with all that vacant land if they claim that they need to tear down those buildings they are going to meet heavy resistance.

[48009]

The Palace is very hard to get to from anywhere that isn't northern Oakland County and northwestern Macomb County, which is like 5% of the region's population and maybe 20% of its wealth. It is very hard to get to from rich and/or business heavy areas like Canton, Farmington Hills, Novi, Warren, Ann Arbor, Dearborn, Grosse Pointe, etc, not to mention very far away from the million + people who live Downriver.

Additionally, it's not fun to go to unless the Pistons are winning, because there is nothing else to do in the area at all. As I said, it is literally in a garbage dump.

Because of the way our road system works, Downtown Detroit is easy to get to even for people who live in far-flung suburbs. Auburn Hills is difficult to get to unless you live nearby or directly along the I-75 or M-59 corridors. And for I-75, once you get south of about 14 Mile, Downtown is closer and more convenient.

You do know the Palace is one of the most successful venues in the country, right? Further, the Palace caters to the state of Michigan, not just "Metro Detroit." For that purpose, the Palace is in a perfect location; closest to the greatest concentration of Michigan wealth, while convenient for those around the state [[I-75, M15, M59, M24 all within a couple of miles). You could argue the Palace loves its immediate isolation, because it means fans are more likely to drink and eat on site. With that said, as for hotel options, the Royal Park Hotel in downtown Rochester is a 4 star property and is just 7 miles away. The Townsend Hotel, another 4 star property, is 16 miles away in Birmingham. Someone said it's easier to get from Bloomfield to Comerica? Umm how is a 16 minute commute to the Palace longer the a 32 minute downtown? A lot of you just talk out of you --- without any rhyme or reason.

EDIT: I wouldn't call Auburn Hills "northern Oakland county" either. It's as central as you can get outside of putting the Palace in Pontiac or Waterford.

[TexasT]

You do know the Palace is one of the most successful venues in the country, right?

By what metric, out of curiosity?

[48009]

By what metric, out of curiosity?

I recall Palace/DTE concert and event revenue were the major selling points when the "Pistons" were for sale. Most articles called the Palace one of the most profitable venues in the country.

[Khorasaurus]

You do know the Palace is one of the most successful venues in the country, right? Further, the Palace caters to the state of Michigan, not just "Metro Detroit." For that purpose, the Palace is in a perfect location; closest to the greatest concentration of Michigan wealth, while convenient for those around the state [[I-75, M15, M59, M24 all within a couple of miles). You could argue the Palace loves its immediate isolation, because it means fans are more likely to drink and eat on site. With that said, as for hotel options, the Royal Park Hotel in downtown Rochester is a 4 star property and is just 7 miles away. The Townsend Hotel, another 4 star property, is 16 miles away in Birmingham. Someone said it's easier to get from Bloomfield to Comerica? Umm how is a 16 minute commute to the Palace longer the a 32 minute downtown? A lot of you just talk out of you --- without any rhyme or reason.

EDIT: I wouldn't call Auburn Hills "northern Oakland county" either. It's as central as you can get outside of putting the Palace in Pontiac or Waterford.

I used to live in Grand Rapids. People out there don't think the Palace is convenient to the rest of the State. The best way to get from Grand Rapids to the Palace is to go all the way up to Flint and come back down. And for people on the I-94 corridor [[Kalamazoo, Jackson, etc)...I'm not even sure how to get to the Palace from there.

And your comments about hotels are laughable. You're bragging that the Townsend is 16 miles from the Palace??? That's almost as far as it is from downtown! From Comerica/the new wings arena, there are multiple 4 star hotel properties within WALKING DISTANCE.

And if you think M-24 is an asset, you've clearly never driven on it. Ask someone from Lake Orion or Oxford how nice it is to drive on M-24.

The Palace is north of at least 80% of Oakland County's population. So, while it's actually central geographically, it's north from the standpoint of most people who live in the county.

The Palace is successful for a few reasons - no competition from outside food/drink places, it's really big [[one of the biggest arenas in the NBA), and, yes, it's really nice inside. But it's in a crappy location. And I don't just say that because it's in the suburbs. I say that because it is in a garbage dump along some of the most congested routes in the state with poor access from the west and southwest, a very long way from the region's center of population [[which is approximately in Southfield).

[bailey]

you do know the Palace is one of the most successful venues in the country, right?

I don't think anyone is saying they aren't successful [[although I think you're lumping DTE and the rest of Palace entertainment in there). It's a testament to it's management and the lack of competition. Its a national benchmark on how to construct a multiuse venue and it's 20 years old. That is saying something. However, if you had just as nice a multi use venue downtown as the palace, I would bet there'd be a substantial drop off. God knows no one goes to pistons games. I mean they curtain off the the second tier to hide the empty seats and that's not going change as long as Gores owns the team.

Further, the Palace caters to the state of Michigan, not just "Metro Detroit." For that purpose, the Palace is in a perfect location; closest to the greatest concentration of Michigan wealth, while convenient for those around the state.

"convenient" it is not to anyone outside of a very small radius and the drudgery of going there factors into the choice to go there. Being in GP, I can not think of the last time I voluntarily went to the Palace for anything. I certainly can not recall the last time I paid for a ticket. That doesn't mean the Palace doesn't have a market, I'm just saying I'm [[and lot of people I talk to, work with and live around) aren't it. The number one issue is the hassle that it is to go there.

You could argue the Palace loves that it's surrounded by nothing, because it means fans drink and eat on site.

As they say, its not a bug, its a feature. It's like a casino. the more that they isolate and wall off from the rest of the area the better for PSE's bottom line [[and likely a large contributor to the "sucess" .

With that said, as for hotel options, the Royal Park Hotel in downtown Rochester is a 4 star property and is just 7 miles away. The Townsend Hotel, another 4 star property, is 16 miles away in Birmingham. Someone said it's easier to get from Bloomfield to Comerica? Umm how is a 16 minute commute to the Palace longer the a 32 minute downtown? A lot of you just talk out of you --- without any rhyme or reason.

because its not a 16 minute commute when there is an event. on one hand you're weaving on back roads slowly or sitting in bumper to bumper traffic on the exit from I75 both coming and going and no option for anything to do before or after.....the other has multiple routes on major thoroughfares and options for before and after the event and hotel options within walking distance.


The Palace is just like any exurban shopping mall, or business park. It's an isolated building plopped down in the middle of a sea of parking off the expressway.

[tkelly1986]

The talk of the pedestrian bridge is an interesting/great concept. However, would it be possible to cap from Woodward to Park? This could create a plaza and connect the two districts better.

[Khorasaurus]

The talk of the pedestrian bridge is an interesting/great concept. However, would it be possible to cap from Woodward to Park? This could create a plaza and connect the two districts better.

Woodward to Clifford probably, but I agree with you. There is no Park overpass and Park may not exist north of the freeway when the arena is done.

[bailey]

The talk of the pedestrian bridge is an interesting/great concept. However, would it be possible to cap from Woodward to Park? This could create a plaza and connect the two districts better.

I would imagine cost will make that decision. I agree, it would be better than a pedestrian bridge...especially because we all know what we'll get. I mean it's not like they'll do anything aesthetically interesting. it'll be the same chain-link fence/concrete slap ramp they put up over everything now.

[motz]

Why would an arena right of the freeway, smack dam in in the middle of the state's economic and wealth center, be "hard to get to" or "not convenient to anyone".

It's certainly convenient to more corporations, and more upper-income households than an arena located downtown. There's wealth in all directions from the Palace, and in no directions from downtown.

As someone who currently lives in Detroit and previously lived in Troy, The Palace is incredibly inconvienent to get to, get in and out of, and just generally somewhere I don't want to go. I went to three games [[free tickets) this year, and each time it was a total pain in the neck to get there, a bigger pain in the neck to get back and there weren't any options to grab food beforehand. The Palace is terribly inconvenient and would be so much better if it were downtown.

[southen]

i can definitely see olympia going after palace business once it gets the new arena. i dont know about the rest of you but when i go to a game or concert i like to make an evening of it, not just go then leave right after the event. an arena downtown integrated into the downtown, unlike JLA now, is far more appealing for an evening of fun as opposed to an island miles away from any downtowns with life.

i grew up in rochester and have gone to many events at the palace. its a great venue but its in the middle of nowhere and traffic is almost worse than events downtown. at least downtown you have the option to wait at a restaurant or watering hole, at the palace you can sit in your car for an hour and a half.

[rb336]

What will happen to Joe Louis Arena, will Gilbert buy it too?

more than likely torn down to further expand Cobo

[Bham1982]

As someone who currently lives in Detroit and previously lived in Troy, The Palace is incredibly inconvienent to get to, get in and out of, and just generally somewhere I don't want to go.

That's fine and dandy, but far more people live in Oakland County than anywhere near downtown, and the Palace is obviously convenient to a huge number of people, or it wouldn't be among the busiest arenas in the country.

The only arenas that compete with the Palace for annual event attendance are Madison Square Garden in NYC and Staples Center in LA. This pretty much confirms the inherent attractiveness of the Palace as an events venue.

[48009]

Some of you guys are so biased and blind to your love of Detroit proper that you refuse to acknowledge that a suburban arena appeals to other people. The Palace's success is a testament that you are in the minority. Few have time to “make a night” out of every concert or basketball game they see during the week. People have jobs and leave early and don’t want to walk 25 minutes to their car and the hassle of a long drive on 75N, etc.

[Khorasaurus]

Some of you guys are so biased and blind to your love of Detroit proper that you refuse to acknowledge that a suburban arena appeals to other people. The Palace's success is a testament that you are in the minority. Few have time to “make a night” out of every concert or basketball game they see during the week. People have jobs and leave early and don’t want to walk 25 minutes to their car and the hassle of a long drive on 75N, etc.

It takes me longer to get on 75 from the Palace then it does to get on 75 from Comerica. A lot longer, actually.

[48009]

That's fine and dandy, but far more people live in Oakland County than anywhere near downtown

I'd change the wording to "far more people...who can afford Palace attractions...live in Oakland County." Wayne is actually more populated, but less affluent, obviously.

[Detroitnerd]

Some of you guys are so biased and blind to your love of Detroit proper that you refuse to acknowledge that a suburban arena appeals to other people. The Palace's success is a testament that you are in the minority. Few have time to “make a night” out of every concert or basketball game they see during the week. People have jobs and leave early and don’t want to walk 25 minutes to their car and the hassle of a long drive on 75N, etc.

That's weird. That last sentence describes exactly what happened on my last visit to the Palace.

[Khorasaurus]

That's fine and dandy, but far more people live in Oakland County than anywhere near downtown, and the Palace is obviously convenient to a huge number of people, or it wouldn't be among the busiest arenas in the country.

There are 1 million people in Oakland County and 700,000 in the City of Detroit. That's not "far more people" [[and it doesn't include the large portions of Wayne, Oakland, and Macomb Counties that are closer to downtown than Auburn Hills).

[Khorasaurus]

Another point: While the Palace is successful financially, the Pistons were 28th [[third from last) in the NBA in attendance last year, ahead of just Sacramento and New Orleans. They were dead last in attendance as a percentage of capacity, with just 67% of seats sold.

Now, a large part of that is because the team sucks. But people will go see a bad team if they can make a fun evening out of it. They won't go see a bad team if the rest of their evening is spent in traffic trying to get out of a parking lot.

Edit: By contrast, the Wings were third in the NHL in attendance despite having one of their worst seasons in decades [[albeit better than the Pistons). They drew about 6,000 fans more per game than the Pistons did this year. And that's playing in JLA, which is objectively a dump.