Plans unveiled for $650M Red Wings arena, entertainment district in Detroit

[jaytheory]

Ann Arbor is a horrible example of your point. It has a 100,000 seat stadium in the middle of it that sits empty except for 7 football games a year. Holland has a convention center and a college basketball arena, albeit both on Hope's campus.

Charleston is dramatically smaller than Detroit. In fact, it's smaller than Flint. And it has unique geography that helps it stay vibrant.

Alexandria isn't the center of its region. Birmingham is a better comparison to Alexandria than Detroit is.

Chicago, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, Milwaukee - those are the cities that Detroit should be compared to. And all have big sports facilities and convention centers in their downtowns.

to add to that Alexandria is a suburb of DC [[which has 2 stadiums, nats and verizon). Alexandria is exactly liek brimingham except it is larger. so say birmingham + berkley and royal oak.

[antongast]

Putting an arena there would clearly be an improvement.

This is far from clear to me.

Would mixed-use buildings with residential and retail be better? Sure. But we have a hockey team, and they should play in the core of the city, and that's a good site for their arena.

I don't think Woodward Avenue just outside downtown is a good place for a blank-walled superblock, if you're trying to make greater downtown more vibrant. If, on the other hand, you're trying to make a shitload of money selling tickets to hockey games, it's pretty much exactly where you want to be.

We have plenty of other places where we can build good urbanism

Except we keep not doing that, because the people making these decisions either don't know what good urbanism is or they don't think it's important. You think this is going to be the last boneheaded move George Jackson ever makes? He'll get his arena project built and then suddenly come to Jesus?

and filling this currently vacant site with an arena should help that goal, not hurt it.

I am skeptical of this claim.

But it's absolutely a step forward. The only question is how big of a step.

The question for me is "why the fuck are we spending public money on this boondoggle?" and the answer is "forget it, Jake, it's Chinatown."

[emu steve]

There are a few major projects recently that didn't involve either of them - the Broderick and Book Cadillac spring to mind. I don't think either is involved in the Whitney either.

And neither one of them is involved in the smaller projects that are going on in Midtown right now either.

So yes, there is plenty of development interest for people other than those two big names. Hopefully soon [[once rental rates hit $2 a square foot) we'll see a lot more.

Bingo.

Ilitch can do so much. Gilbert can do so much. [[he doesn't have Warren Buffet's billions and even a few billion isn't going to develop what needs to be developed).

As we have said many, many times as more and more people work, live or visit downtown development will occur based on market forces.

And as indicated above, rental rates, rather than a billionaire's deep pockets, will guide development going forward.

How much aggregate demand?

How much is someone willing to pay for office space, residential footage, etc.

[ghettopalmetto]

I'm not sure you understood the point of my post. Of course Detroit can learn from other places. But those places should be comparable to Detroit demographically, geographically, economically, etc. So not Charleston, Ann Arbor, or Holland.

Here are some things we could learn from each of the places I mentioned in my post:

Chicago: How to have desirable neighborhoods for families without a quality school system.

Cleveland: How to institute BRT and Light Rail

Cincy: How to redevelop an abandoned train station

Pittsburgh: How to re-use vacant former industrial property.

Indianapolis: How to turn investments in sports and conventions into real economic development, not just sports bars.

Milwaukee: How to remove a freeway and redevelop the new land.

These cities are facing very similar issues to Detroit right now, and they are doing things that we are looking at doing. So those are the cities we can learn from, not college towns or beach towns or small towns populated almost entirely by rich people.

Problem is, Detroit doesn't compare to any of these cities, either. If you only compare Detroit to cities that are in the same paradigm...well, you'll be waiting a long time to make a comparison. As you'll note, Detroit isn't doing ANY of the things that its alleged peers are doing.

There is no reason why Detroit can't look at a small city and say, "You know, that's a great idea. We could do that."

You'll just as soon say, "Well, Detroit can't work on a walkable downtown and greenbelts like Portland, because Portland has hippies and we don't."

"Detroit can't grow a sustainable economy based on locally-owned businesses like Asheville, North Carolina, because Asheville is in the mountains."

"Detroit can't preserve old housing stock like Richmond, because Richmond is a state capital."

You limit yourself with all these excuses. Let Ilitch write a check for his own God damned arena. Detroit functioned just fine, if not better than now, for 225 years without a hockey arena.

Detroit's problems aren't due to its location, population, racial makeup, employment sectors, weather, how God feels about Detroit on a given day, or any of that. Detroit's problems are rooted in the insistence on copying every bat-shit crazy terrible budget-busting gimmick that was ever invented.

Simplify. Take it to brass tacks. What makes a nice place to live? What grows a local economy?

Hint: Giving piles of cash to Mike Ilitch hasn't worked before, and it won't work again. Dan Gilbert is a much, much better example of the correct way to effect permanent change. You'd think people would have caught on to this give-millions-to-billionaires-and-pray bullshit at some point within the past 20 years, after the first half a dozen times it failed Detroit.

[emu steve]

Hint: Giving piles of cash to Mike Ilitch hasn't worked before, and it won't work again. Dan Gilbert is a much, much better example of the correct way to effect permanent change. You'd think people would have caught on to this give-millions-to-billionaires-and-pray bullshit at some point within the past 20 years, after the first half a dozen times it failed Detroit.

Hint2:

Dan Gilbert bought a NBA team with an arena already built. He did not have to subject himself to the issues of building a sports facility.

In that respect, comparing what Iltich and Gilbert are doing is apples and oranges.

One is building sports facilities [[e.g., Comerica and a new arena) and the other is doing non-sports development.

I'll look up the history of the playpen his Cavs play in and see if this is similar to what we have going on now with a NHL team.

NOTE:

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/06/13/bu...cleveland.html

I think the similarities between what happened in Cleveland and has/is happening in Detroit is remarkable similar.

Mostly just replace the source of the taxes used. and yes, controversial as well. And yes, the sports facilities were design to foster development in an area which needed development.

This article is 1990.

"On May 8, however, voters in Cleveland and the rest of Cuyahoga County approved by a narrow margin a new excise tax on cigarettes and alcohol that is expected to raise $150 million over the next 15 years. Additional money for the sports complex will be raised from the sales of luxury seating."

Fortunately for Gilbert's reputation, he did not have to fight that battle.

[ghettopalmetto]

Hint2:

Dan Gilbert bought a NBA team with an arena already built. He did not have to subject himself to the issues of building a sports facility.

In that respect, comparing what Iltich and Gilbert are doing is apples and oranges.

What does Ilitch's repeated fleecing of taxpayers have to do with Dan Gilbert? You must be the accountant for both of these guys, huh?

One is building sports facilities [[e.g., Comerica and a new arena) and the other is doing non-sports development.

One knows how to make money through real estate. The other knows how to make parking lots and enrich himself at the public trough.

I think the similarities between what happened in Cleveland and has/is happening in Detroit is remarkable similar.

The Richfield Coliseum was not just out of date. It was almost 30 miles from the city, in a cornfield. The voters of Cuyahoga County elected to tax themselves to construct the Gateway complex. Beyond that, the arena [[and the ballpark) are both owned by the Gateway Economic Development Corporation [[a non-profit entity with a board of trustees appointed by Cuyahoga County and the City of Cleveland). The arena was not, and never was, owned by the Cleveland Cavaliers, the Gund brothers, or Dan Gilbert. DEGC--a completely unaccountable quasi-public body--is just handing over money to Ilitch for the asking.

Mostly just replace the source of the taxes used. and yes, controversial as well. And yes, the sports facilities were design to foster development in an area which needed development.

They got a few bars on Prospect and Euclid Avenues--and that's with both an arena *and* a ballpark. It's stupid to think Detroit will magically fill 43 blocks. The evidence suggests otherwise.

But hey, normal rules don't apply in Detroit, do they?

[rb336]

One knows how to make money through real estate. The other knows how to make parking lots and enrich himself at the public trough.

Ilitch enriched himself by building a pizza empire. He also was the first major company to move to Detroit from the burbs, and when he did, the entire area was DEAD.

[ghettopalmetto]

Ilitch enriched himself by building a pizza empire. He also was the first major company to move to Detroit from the burbs, and when he did, the entire area was DEAD. [/COLOR]

Easy with the word "pizza".

[gthomas]

Ilitch needs to take notes for urban planning for an arena, here's a great example of the Nationwide "Arena District" development in Columbus, Ohio. This is my best option of what our district should be or more "Detroit styled".



Residential building development with ground-floor retail throughout.




The arena can fit nicely along Woodward, just like this example in Columbus, OH.



Here's more on the website: http://arenadistrict.com/venue/nationwide-arena/

[emu steve]

Ilitch needs to take notes for urban planning for an arena, here's a great example of the Nationwide "Arena District" development in Columbus, Ohio. This is my best option of what our district should be or more "Detroit styled".



Residential building development with ground-floor retail throughout.




The arena can fit nicely along Woodward, just like this example in Columbus, OH.



Here's more on the website: http://arenadistrict.com/venue/nationwide-arena/

Very impressive.

BTW, here is the parking map showing a sports and convention district [[if I may use the term).

Baseball stadium, hockey arena and convention center.

http://arenadistrict.com/assets/2013...arking-Map.pdf

[Jason]

The architecture firm that did the columbus arena is one of the firms that was hired for our new arena. The other firm also has experience doing these kinds of arena districts.

tbh, with his track record, it's the only thing that gives me any confidence that any of the promised development will actually happen.

[eg792]

What was wrong with the Joe? I've been there several times and loved it.

Little Caesar's Arena? Really?

[gthomas]

The architecture firm that did the columbus arena is one of the firms that was hired for our new arena. The other firm also has experience doing these kinds of arena districts.

tbh, with his track record, it's the only thing that gives me any confidence that any of the promised development will actually happen.

So everybody fear is...HUGE surface parking lots with no dense residential/office/hotel district, which the plans includes all that and more....so I'm trying to figure out why everybody stating that there's just plans for surface parking lots and a arena? This is not always the case, the Nationwide Arena District is a prime example of what can happen here. The arena can be close to Woodward, not like Comerica Park..which is setback. I hope the same concept is planned here as in Columbus, OH. The myth of a "Dead Zone" around arenas shall continue to be tested.

With that being said, I hope the residential/office/retail is not setback with parking in front of it. The plan is for a hotel, no historic structures are being save to house it so my guess is "NEW". Will we see a shiny new hotel north of downtown?

[Brian1979]

Ann Arbor is a horrible example of your point. It has a 100,000 seat stadium in the middle of it that sits empty except for 7 football games a year. Holland has a convention center and a college basketball arena, albeit both on Hope's campus.

Charleston is dramatically smaller than Detroit. In fact, it's smaller than Flint. And it has unique geography that helps it stay vibrant.

Alexandria isn't the center of its region. Birmingham is a better comparison to Alexandria than Detroit is.

Chicago, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, Milwaukee - those are the cities that Detroit should be compared to. And all have big sports facilities and convention centers in their downtowns.

Chicago doesn't have any sports facilities or convention centers downtown. McCormick Place is the convention center and that's on Lakeshore and Cermak. Both baseball stadiums are well away from downtown as is the United Center and Solider Field.

[Novine]

Columbus looks nice on paper. But in person, it sure doesn't have the feel of an active downtown area.

[royce]

I'm not happy with the chosen site. An arena behind the Fox could have done so much more to connecting Grand River and Woodward than an arena on Woodward north of that area. Sure the planned area is just as blighted as the area behind the Fox, but you had some life behind the Fox with the following buildings: Iodent, Cliff Bells/Park Bar, Kales, Women's Club, Detroit Life, Colony, Varner, and Park Ave. Hotel. Putting restaurants/bars and residential in those buildings, along with an arena and you would have quite a lively area. Putting the arena in the planned area and you hope to create what's behind the Fox, but there's no guarantee it will happen because it's already happening behind the Fox. Anyway, that's not going to happen. At least I hope the new arena will be as close to Woodward Avenue as possible. I don't want to see a parking lot along Woodward and then the arena. The Nationwide Arena in Columbus is a good example of what should go along Woodward. BTW, I'm very disappointed with the Vietnam Veterans' organization at Woodward and Temple. The land next to them was to be a park. There was even a dedication years ago with Ficano and other dignitaries. All I've seen since then is the organization using the future park land for automobile parking during Tigers' games. Well, with the arena coming, a park is most likely out of the picture for good.

[Novine]

"Sure the planned area is just as blighted as the area behind the Fox, but you had some life behind the Fox with the following buildings: Iodent, Cliff Bells/Park Bar, Kales, Women's Club, Detroit Life, Colony, Varner, and Park Ave."

Can Ilitch make a profit off of these? The answers "no" which is one reason the arena is going where it is going.

[emu steve]

"Sure the planned area is just as blighted as the area behind the Fox, but you had some life behind the Fox with the following buildings: Iodent, Cliff Bells/Park Bar, Kales, Women's Club, Detroit Life, Colony, Varner, and Park Ave."

Can Ilitch make a profit off of these? The answers "no" which is one reason the arena is going where it is going.

I was always conflicted where the arena should go.

For the longest time I thought behind the Fox and that would essentially eat up that space with an arena and ancillary things.

Then I got to thinking of Woodward/Fisher.

To me, Woodward site got to be much, much importance because it is footage on Woodward.

Obviously what is there now, basically ugly, wasted space [[for parking) but there is parking behind the Fox so that space serves very little important usage.

Woodward / Fisher is like a homeowner's 'front yard' and behind the Fox is like a homeowner's 'back yard'.

It is easy to ignore the area behind the Fox. Pretty hard to ignore Woodward.

Where would you plant the best flowers and spend the most time and money landscaping?

[Khorasaurus]

Chicago doesn't have any sports facilities or convention centers downtown. McCormick Place is the convention center and that's on Lakeshore and Cermak. Both baseball stadiums are well away from downtown as is the United Center and Solider Field.

What are you defining as Chicago's "downtown"?

McCormick Place and Soldier Field and just as much in "downtown" Chicago as this new arena for the Wings will be in "downtown" Detroit.

The United Center is debatable. It's kind of the equivalent of when Tiger Stadium was in Corktown - not quite downtown, but close.

[rb336]

Chicago doesn't have any sports facilities or convention centers downtown. McCormick Place is the convention center and that's on Lakeshore and Cermak. Both baseball stadiums are well away from downtown as is the United Center and Solider Field.

Soldier Field is just off the South Loop, right where the Shedd Aquarium, Field Museum and Adler Planetarium are. Sort of an extension of Grant Park. It's not what I would consider "well away."

[ghettopalmetto]

Soldier Field is just off the South Loop, right where the Shedd Aquarium, Field Museum and Adler Planetarium are. Sort of an extension of Grant Park. It's not what I would consider "well away."

But it's certainly not on Michigan Avenue or State Street, either.

Honestly, I have no idea where Detroiters get this idea that it's necessary to throw away hundreds of millions of dollars every time you want to "revitalize" one or two stinking blocks. There's so much cash flowing around the D, the streets must be paved with gold bricks, huh?

[emu steve]

"Sure the planned area is just as blighted as the area behind the Fox, but you had some life behind the Fox with the following buildings: Iodent, Cliff Bells/Park Bar, Kales, Women's Club, Detroit Life, Colony, Varner, and Park Ave."

Can Ilitch make a profit off of these? The answers "no" which is one reason the arena is going where it is going.

I really, really wish Gistok would lend his knowledge of this matter.

It MIGHT be that Ilitch was unable to secure all of the land behind the Fox he needed to build an arena there.

IF memory serves me correctly, there were a couple holdouts [[and one might have been a trust or some other very, very difficult legal situation which made site acquisition more than simply offering more money).

As I indicated with Nationals Park, there were holdouts on O and P Street S.E. who refused to sell regardless of money, and later fought [[and lost) on eminent domain.

Without eminent domain there would be no Nationals Park where it is today.

Nationals Park site was chosen for I believe essentially 3 reaons:

1). It was accessible by the subway. As others have indicated a subway stop is one block away. It does not present great surface traffic problems as would one of the other possible sites, by the new ATF building. Most folks REALLY do take the subway to Nationals Park. The Green line is our most underutilized subway line.

2). The land cost, because the area was so run down, was the least costly to acquire. L'Enfant Plaza site would have been very, very costly.

3). The location offered a big opportunity for development which certainly wasn't needed by L'Enfant Plaza.

The biggest issue for Nationals Park is some retail development very close to the stadium never happened because of the economic crash of 2008.

I'm still surprised it hasn't happened but eateries are not as important for baseball stadiums as for other sports, e.g., FB, hockey, etc.

[Brian1979]

What are you defining as Chicago's "downtown"?

McCormick Place and Soldier Field and just as much in "downtown" Chicago as this new arena for the Wings will be in "downtown" Detroit.

The United Center is debatable. It's kind of the equivalent of when Tiger Stadium was in Corktown - not quite downtown, but close.

McCormick Place is well south of downtown as is Solider Field, downtown stops pretty much at Congress, south of that it's the South Loop. The new Wings arena will be much closer to downtown Detroit than Solider Field and McCormick Place are to downtown Chicago. As far as the UC it's out on W. Madison near Damen, the river is where downtown stops going to the west. It's closer to downtown than people think but the only things downtown are the shopping districts and the financial district as well as office buildings for other firms.

I think that the sports venues in downtown Detroit take up too much land and I'm one of the people that don't think sports venues save a city. All I'm saying is the CBD should be just that, the CBD. As far as entertainment it can be in other places.

I don't know if I'll be the first one to bring this up but what would be wrong with the new Red Wings arena being built on the old Tiger Stadium property. I would think there is plenty of room there and the gravel lots that Ilitch loves are still there from when the Tigers left.

[Bham1982]

What are you defining as Chicago's "downtown"?

McCormick Place and Soldier Field and just as much in "downtown" Chicago as this new arena for the Wings will be in "downtown" Detroit.

The United Center is debatable. It's kind of the equivalent of when Tiger Stadium was in Corktown - not quite downtown, but close.

Chicago has no sports arenas downtown.

Solidier Field is well south of Roosevelt Rd. No one considers south of Roosevelt Rd. to be "downtown Chicago". And it's isolated from the city proper by a freeway and parkland.

And United Center is even further from downtown. It's on the West Side of Chicago, a long way from the Loop and the Near North Side tourist/business hub.

Really the most "downtown" stadium in Chicago would be Wrigley, even though it's geographically far from the traditional city heart. It's the most urban venue, by far.

[Brian1979]

Soldier Field is just off the South Loop, right where the Shedd Aquarium, Field Museum and Adler Planetarium are. Sort of an extension of Grant Park. It's not what I would consider "well away."

The South Loop isn't a part of downtown though, it's south of the loop which is why it's named the South Loop. Downtown Chicago is the lake to the river and Congress on the south. And the actual Loop [[the tracks the L uses to turn around) is even smaller, it's almost the same as the area the people mover circles in Detroit.

Soldier Field is at 1600 south, Congress is 500 south so it's 11 blocks from being in downtown which is only one block away from being a mile [[the Southside doesn't correct it's address grid until after 31st Street). Soldier Field is in the Museum Campus.