Dead Metro Detroit Malls *Universal, Livonia and Summit Place Mall pictures included*

[LodgeDodger]

That's all in your head. How you managed to get that I hated the suburbs from comments on sustainability is beyond me. I don't wish bad on the suburbs. I also don't know how a community's age has anything to do with it's sustainability. It doesn't matter when a poorly built system was built when you are talking about their prospects for the future.

My original comment was about the demolition of the malls. Despite Lodge Dodger's mall nostalgia, I think it was a shortsighted mistake to build buildings that have no possibility for reuse. I would rather see progress than keeping buildings like this that have lived past their useful life. Life is all about change, and it is time to move on to some new beginnings.

And that is exactly why everyone is on your case, Sean. Age has quite a bit to do with sustainability. I could write paragraphs about the importance of infrastructure and sustainability, but it would [[more than likely) be lost on you. It's a shame, really. You seem like a nice kid, but you have this innate talent for making sweeping statements about issues in which you have no idea.

My original comment to you was to call you out and ask you to explain your position. IIRC, I believe my comments about Summit Place Mall had nothing to do with nostalgia. I believe anytime a business closes [[whether it is in a mall setting, or not) there is a direct, negative impact on its surroundings. Watching the fast decline of the Summit Place mall has been troubling to me--where will the local shoppers go, once the mall closes? I'm lucky, I don't live in that area, I can shop in one of the newer, well-stocked shopping areas.

If you plan to post, publicly, you will need to explain yourself to those who challenge you. Those of us who are a few years out of their twenties like valid explanations to back up such comments.

As far as building re-use is concerned, was your idea for the Lafayette building in any way a sustainable re-use?

For the record, if you wish people to take you seriously, learn a bit more about the mechanics of English. The contraction, it's, means it is. The apostrophe takes the place of the letter, i. There is no need to use an apostrophe in the word, its. The word is already possessive.

[Johnlodge]

Oh get off your pedestal. It's not all about you.

Recently, a DetroitYES poster brought up a story about a woman who he confronted about throwing a piece of trash on the ground. The woman responded to the poster with much hostility and racism, say he shouldn't be telling her what to do, and to mind his own business. The funny thing is that he was minding his own business, he had to deal with the problem she created.

You are doing the same thing as this woman. Unsustainability hurts my family, community, city, and region, it's not all about you. I don't really care what you do Johnlodge, but if you want to live a destructive lifestyle that affects my community and region, you bet your ass I'm going to take issue with that.

I take it you took offence to my latest blog post, feel free to go and post your quills over there on the rest of the issues, as parenting and malls aren't really related, unless you are talking about the parents I mentioned in my post who essentially built self contained malls for their kids to keep them from going out and exploring the world.

First, if you are going to change the wording of my comments there on your blog as you have done, I'd appreciate if you'd just delete the comment as you do the rest of the comments made there that don't agree with you. You changed my words to insult Detroiters, I have nothing against Detroiters. You see, I don't judge people based on where they live. Living in the city is great if that's what someone chooses to do.

Second, how is where I live any less sustainable than where you live? I have as much mass transit here as you do, minus the little amusement park ride that goes around in a circle downtown. I can walk to the grocery store and hardware store and much of anything else I need, can you? There are three grocery stores within a 10 minute walk from me. Ferndale has a higher population density than many areas of Detroit. You are telling other people how and where to live, and then claiming others are the ones on a pedestal? You are criticizing the parenting of others without having raised a child yourself, and claiming others are on a pedestal? Start worrying about yourself and your soon-to-be family and less about what everybody else is doing.

[iheartthed]

Most of suburban Detroit, just like most areas of suburban America, is unsustainable. It was a model built upon the prevalence of dirt cheap energy, and when [[not if) energy stops being so dirt cheap, those areas least equipped to adapt to that change will be the least viable.

People don't need to live in an environment where it is necessary to own multiple automobiles just to perform the necessary functions of your daily life; that is not a basic function of life like breathing or eating. Yet, most of us do so because we don't know any other way to live.

For the overwhelming majority of people in metro Detroit, those who do not have direct access to a car cannot go to work, go to the grocery store... and many can't even so much as go to a park! By comparison, I can travel not only to work or the grocery store from my home without a car, but also to virtually any major city in this country. I could also use a car to do all of this, but I don't need to, which is the difference.

What happens now that our country's size and rates of consumption -- relative to other countries -- is no longer unique? In other words, we are no longer the sole dominant force that influences the global price of energy. [[Nor might it even be in our national interest in the future to keep energy rates dirt cheap, but that is for another discussion.)

The point is that sprawled, decentralized communities are not economically self-sustaining. And this is how most of suburban Detroit, as well as much of suburban America, is built.

[Stosh]

Most of suburban Detroit, just like most areas of suburban America, is unsustainable. It was a model built upon the prevalence of dirt cheap energy, and when [[not if) energy stops being so dirt cheap, those areas least equipped to adapt to that change will be the least viable.

Please insert "Metro Detroit Area" into the bolded space please. I'd like to see just how Detroit is so energy efficient please. Detroit itself was built. for the most part, in the era when energy was cheap. The buildings are inneficient, and the present land use is unsustainable. The areas least equipped to change is the area you conveniently choose to ignore.

People don't need to live in an environment where it is necessary to own multiple automobiles just to perform the necessary functions of your daily life; that is not a basic function of life like breathing or eating. Yet, most of us do so because we don't know any other way to live.

For the overwhelming majority of people in metro Detroit, those who do not have direct access to a car cannot go to work, go to the grocery store... and many can't even so much as go to a park! By comparison, I can travel not only to work or the grocery store from my home without a car, but also to virtually any major city in this country. I could also use a car to do all of this, but I don't need to, which is the difference.

I suppose that I could take the bus to the grocery store, yet it's a choice I choose to make. Sustainability also means sustainability in your personal life as well. Balance. I'll make 1 large shopping trip to the store, maybe 2, a month. Nickel and diming myself to the local party store costs me more. And is also a waste of time for me. I might consider an electric vehicle soon, and it will be an American one.

[DetroitDad]

And that is exactly why everyone is on your case, Sean. Age has quite a bit to do with sustainability. I could write paragraphs about the importance of infrastructure and sustainability, but it would [[more than likely) be lost on you. It's a shame, really. You seem like a nice kid, but you have this innate talent for making sweeping statements about issues in which you have no idea.

My original comment to you was to call you out and ask you to explain your position. IIRC, I believe my comments about Summit Place Mall had nothing to do with nostalgia. I believe anytime a business closes [[whether it is in a mall setting, or not) there is a direct, negative impact on its surroundings. Watching the fast decline of the Summit Place mall has been troubling to me--where will the local shoppers go, once the mall closes? I'm lucky, I don't live in that area, I can shop in one of the newer, well-stocked shopping areas.

If you plan to post, publicly, you will need to explain yourself to those who challenge you. Those of us who are a few years out of their twenties like valid explanations to back up such comments.

As far as building re-use is concerned, was your idea for the Lafayette building in any way a sustainable re-use?

For the record, if you wish people to take you seriously, learn a bit more about the mechanics of English. The contraction, it's, means it is. The apostrophe takes the place of the letter, i. There is no need to use an apostrophe in the word, its. The word is already possessive.

Your blathering and pointless posts along with your [[and Johnlodge's)
need to school house and nitpick grammatical typos as a means of trying to make your opponents look bad shows that I shouldn't even be wasting my time with you. You talk about making points, but make few yourself. Do tell me how age alone is a contributing factor oh wise sage. However, I think iheartthed said it very well, and the age of a community has little to do with sustainability if that community was built on an unsustainable suburban model.

Clearly, in this case age does not seem to necessarily mean one is knowledgeable or wise.

[DetroitDad]

First, if you are going to change the wording of my comments there on your blog as you have done, I'd appreciate if you'd just delete the comment as you do the rest of the comments made there that don't agree with you. You changed my words to insult Detroiters, I have nothing against Detroiters. You see, I don't judge people based on where they live. Living in the city is great if that's what someone chooses to do.

Second, how is where I live any less sustainable than where you live? I have as much mass transit here as you do, minus the little amusement park ride that goes around in a circle downtown. I can walk to the grocery store and hardware store and much of anything else I need, can you? There are three grocery stores within a 10 minute walk from me. Ferndale has a higher population density than many areas of Detroit. You are telling other people how and where to live, and then claiming others are the ones on a pedestal? You are criticizing the parenting of others without having raised a child yourself, and claiming others are on a pedestal? Start worrying about yourself and your soon-to-be family and less about what everybody else is doing.

1. Johnlodge, you are just plain lying now. I only deleted two posts on my blog, one was a shout out, and the other was an off topic rant. I also cut and pasted your post directly from here, so cut the crap.
2. Again, you are lying and putting words in my mouth, as you have done this entire thread. I never said where you live was less sustainable than where I live. I actually responded in the comment section on that blog that the suburbs have probably been the best places to raise a child in Detroit. Get off your assumptive high horse and come talk to me down here. Detroit has basically turned into a suburb by default, anyone who thinks otherwise is lying to themselves. However, Detroit is also among the best places in our area to build a sustainable environment. I don't understand why you are so much against that.

Also, if you don't like my blog, than don't read it. If you don't like my posts on DetroitYES, use the ignore function. No one is forcing you to follow my suggestions or listen to my thoughts. Remember, blogs and forums are nothing but public opinion, you are going to have a Hell off a time if you keep trying to silence people or tell them that "you are better than them".

I'm thinking that some people really just have a "holier than thou" attitude, and don't like it when someone gives out advice or personal thought, especially when they don't agree. I'm sure those people know who I am talking about.

[Johnlodge]

1. Johnlodge, your just plain lying now. I only deleted two posts on my blog, one was a shout out, and the other was an off topic rant. I also cut and pasted your post directly from here, so cut the crap.
2. Again, you are lying and putting words in my mouth, as you have done this entire thread. I never said where you live was less sustainable than where I live. I actually responded in the comment section on that blog that the suburbs have probably been the best places to raise a child in Detroit. Get off your assumptive high horse and come talk to me down here. Detroit has basically turned into a suburb by default, anyone who thinks otherwise is lying to themselves. However, Detroit is also among the best places in our area to build a sustainable environment. I don't understand why you are so much against that.

Also, if you don't like my blog, than don't read it. If you don't like my posts on DetroitYES, use the ignore function. No one is forcing you to follow my suggestions or listen to my thoughts. Remember, blogs and forums are nothing but public opinion, you are going to have a Hell off a time if you keep trying to silence people or tell them that "you are better than them".

I'm thinking that some people really just have a "holier than thou" attitude, and don't like it when someone gives out advice or personal thought, especially when they don't agree. I'm sure those people know who I am talking about.

You changed my comment in several places. I never said "coming from someone from Detroit" in a negative manner as you have it posted. I would never say such a thing about a place so many of my friends live. Claim you didn't, whatever. I will feel free to respond to you in public venues wherever I please. I don't want to ignore you, that's childish. Unlike your "ignore" of certain users here, I'm grown up enough to read what others have to say and respond. I've been here quite a long time and have not had a "Hell of a time" talking to anybody, so I think I'll be alright, but thanks for your concern.

[Johnlodge]

Your blathering and pointless posts along with your [[and Johnlodge's)
need to school house and nitpick grammatical typos as a means of trying to make your opponents look bad shows that I shouldn't even be wasting my time with you. You talk about making points, but make few yourself. Do tell me how age alone is a contributing factor oh wise sage. However, I think iheartthed said it very well, and the age of a community has little to do with sustainability if that community was built on an unsustainable suburban model.

Clearly, in this case age does not seem to necessarily mean one is knowledgeable or wise.

Lodgedodger has wisdom you will not achieve for many years, if ever. The fact you can't recognize, or deny it because she disagrees with you, says a lot.

[dcmorrison12]

I laughed a bit inside when I read the post saying Ferndale has just as much Mass Transit as Detroit. Ferndale is served by SMART, and that's it.

In Detroit, there's a bus stop NO MORE than 1/4 of a mile away from you anywhere in the city. In the denser parts of Detroit, there's a bus stop on every major /semi major [[Cass as an example) road with a bus stop about every block. You can get absolutely anywhere in Detroit completely by bus - not the case in Ferndale or anywhere in Metro Detroit. It's unfortunate too because when I want to travel out to 'burbia - I'd like to be able to bus there effectively. I can't and usually I must bum a ride from a friend or meet someone at the bus stop so that I can complete my voyage by car, since the bus coverage is essentially a joke - but how could it be better when you have such a sprawled community and half the suburban communities in SE Michigan refuse to pay for a public bus service.

-Not to mention the City of Detroit is taking huge steps at improving the mass transit system. They're opening a brand new [[and massive) intermodal transit station downtown next Tuesday and there is already a Downtown Circulator within the city, which is important to have in order to have a complete transit system [[we just needs spokes coming off the people mover). DDOT is purchasing about 10 or so hybrid-diesel busses [[with stimulus cash), they are putting together a plan to downsize certain roads to put in bike lanes, they are about to put together a plan to increase the number of bike racks around the city [[through a grant) AND they started working on a TOD [[transit oriented development) plan which they have now turned over to DEGC.

Did I mention we have a comprehensive plan to build a 9.5 mile light rail line down woodward? The application to the FTA is due this month and things are moving along smoothly with the private side - to combine the two plans and both funding sources.

Lastly, the City of Detroit contains the most sustainable communities in Michigan. On the other hand, we also contain very sprawled communities within the city limits.

Actually, there was a study was done about a year ago - they collected data to study the carbon footprints of SE Michigan residents - it was in the Free Press. The suburban population polluted the most.


so.... yea...

[DetroitDad]

Please insert "Metro Detroit Area" into the bolded space please. I'd like to see just how Detroit is so energy efficient please. Detroit itself was built. for the most part, in the era when energy was cheap. The buildings are inneficient, and the present land use is unsustainable. The areas least equipped to change is the area you conveniently choose to ignore.



I suppose that I could take the bus to the grocery store, yet it's a choice I choose to make. Sustainability also means sustainability in your personal life as well. Balance. I'll make 1 large shopping trip to the store, maybe 2, a month. Nickel and diming myself to the local party store costs me more. And is also a waste of time for me. I might consider an electric vehicle soon, and it will be an American one.

Suburbia is a place, the suburban model is a design. It was the suburban model to which I was referring. Those who know me know I am a huge critic of the City of Detroit as well as it's suburbs, and even spend time in more walkable cities and suburbs in Michigan.

Nickel and diming? I hardly make any trips to the big box grocery store, maybe only a couple times a year. I live within walking distance of several grocery stores and pick things up at them on the way to run other errands, usually when said items are on sale. I don't pay more than my car culture counterparts because I don't pay for gas or the real cost they forget about that go along with owning and driving a car everywhere. For one, there are maintenance fees, insurance fees, and possibly tickets to factor in. The big one that most people forget to factor in though is the depreciation that occurs whenever you drive your car. You'll find that all that quickly adds up, and THAT is much more than just nickel and diming you to death, that is a major fixed expense. Add onto that that many families in Metro Detroit have to have two or more cars and you can see how it adds up to a much bigger problem.

[DetroitDad]

You changed my comment in several places. I never said "coming from someone from Detroit" in a negative manner as you have it posted. I would never say such a thing about a place so many of my friends live. Claim you didn't, whatever. I will feel free to respond to you in public venues wherever I please. I don't want to ignore you, that's childish. Unlike your "ignore" of certain users here, I'm grown up enough to read what others have to say and respond. I've been here quite a long time and have not had a "Hell of a time" talking to anybody, so I think I'll be alright, but thanks for your concern.

Well I can't very well argue with lies and pointless personal attacks now can I? We do look like a bunch of children arguing, I'm sure. Remember, you are on the other side of that argument though, doing the same damn thing.

Let's keep the conversation about the topic next time, and you wont make the two of us look like children.

[Linda from Detroit]

When I was living/working in Detroit, I always made sure that my work and home were right on a major busline...and until I finally took a job out in the burbs I never even learned to drive...and I was 25. Granted the neighborhoods were different back then [[early 70's) but I made sure there was a decent medium sized grocery store across the alley from my apartment building too, so other than taking the bus to work and a few other shopping trips it just wasn't a problem! Pity that the powers that be don't find a way to make at least some areas that way again. Sure would help out a lot of people.

[Stosh]

Suburbia is a place, the suburban model is a design. It was the suburban model to which I was referring. Those who know me know I am a huge critic of the City of Detroit as well as it's suburbs, and even spend time in more walkable cities and suburbs in Michigan.

I've never read anything that you've laid out here or in any of your many blogs that is anywhere near half critical of the City. I'd really like to see some examples of this attitude. The suburban model in this area was invented by the City of Detroit. And now it's up to the City to fix this model, but cash seems to be a little tight I think.

Nickel and diming? I hardly make any trips to the big box grocery store, maybe only a couple times a year. I live within walking distance of several grocery stores and pick things up at them on the way to run other errands, usually when said items are on sale. I don't pay more than my car culture counterparts because I don't pay for gas or the real cost they forget about that go along with owning and driving a car everywhere. For one, there are maintenance fees, insurance fees, and possibly tickets to factor in. The big one that most people forget to factor in though is the depreciation that occurs whenever you drive your car. You'll find that all that quickly adds up, and THAT is much more than just nickel and diming you to death, that is a major fixed expense. Add onto that that many families in Metro Detroit have to have two or more cars and you can see how it adds up to a much bigger problem.

I can go on and on about this, but I'll limit my comments to just a few items. From what I gather, you live somewhere in Downtown Detroit. You're already paying a value added premium, for being a captive audience. Comparison shop with other stores, you'll see what I mean. Name these grocery stores within walking distance, if you can. Just curious.

And the fun begins when your kid is born. A day standing at the bus stop waiting to go to the doctors in the middle of winter with a sick kid will cure you of this misconception. Trust me, I know all about this. It's quite different being altruistic when you are single, or without children. Cab rides aren't cheap either.

[iheartthed]

Please insert "Metro Detroit Area" into the bolded space please. I'd like to see just how Detroit is so energy efficient please. Detroit itself was built. for the most part, in the era when energy was cheap. The buildings are inneficient, and the present land use is unsustainable. The areas least equipped to change is the area you conveniently choose to ignore.

Even if I did change those words for "suburban Detroit" to "Metro Detroit area", it still doesn't make what I originally said untrue... But if you want to do comparisons, on a head to head comparison, there is certainly a larger ratio of inner-city Detroit that was built to be a so called sustainable environment, than there is of suburban Detroit.

[Detroit500]

how can a city that is just initiating a recycling pilot program in 2009 be referred to as "sustainable"?

[iheartthed]

how can a city that is just initiating a recycling pilot program in 2009 be referred to as "sustainable"?

What does having a recycling program have to do with the price of tea in China?

[Stosh]

Even if I did change those words for "suburban Detroit" to "Metro Detroit area", it still doesn't make what I originally said untrue... But if you want to do comparisons, on a head to head comparison, there is certainly a larger ratio of inner-city Detroit that was built to be a so called sustainable environment, than there is of suburban Detroit.

True enough, but that was predicated on having viable businesses that served the population. Bakers, shoe stores, the whole mom/pop thing. That's dead, if you haven't noticed. And not just in Detroit, suburbs as well. Which is why the nitpicking on the suburbs puzzles me. It's all the same general shitpot, no matter where you go.

Sustainability also entails a lot of other factors outside of geography. Energy efficiency is one factor. I'd bet that heating and cooling costs eat a significant portion of many resident's and businesses income. Having lived in flats and houses around Detroit for years, I can testify all about the inefficiencies of the housing stock, as well as various business buildings.

I'd say for what it's worth, that the suburbs may have an edge overall in this factor due to more recent construction. Whether they are built with substandard materials or not doesn't concern me. In terms of sustainability, if they have more than a nominal insulation factor, they are more sustainable than a home that is leaking heat like a sieve.

[DetroitDad]

I've never read anything that you've laid out here or in any of your many blogs that is anywhere near half critical of the City. I'd really like to see some examples of this attitude. The suburban model in this area was invented by the City of Detroit. And now it's up to the City to fix this model, but cash seems to be a little tight I think.



I can go on and on about this, but I'll limit my comments to just a few items. From what I gather, you live somewhere in Downtown Detroit. You're already paying a value added premium, for being a captive audience. Comparison shop with other stores, you'll see what I mean. Name these grocery stores within walking distance, if you can. Just curious.

And the fun begins when your kid is born. A day standing at the bus stop waiting to go to the doctors in the middle of winter with a sick kid will cure you of this misconception. Trust me, I know all about this. It's quite different being altruistic when you are single, or without children. Cab rides aren't cheap either.

There are two large grocery stores, one in Midtown, another in Lafayette Park, should I need them. Like most Downtown Detroit apartment buildings, there is a small convenience store in each building, or within a nearby building. There is a new deli near the new transit center, and there are several pharmacies within walking distance. My daughter's pediatrician is going to be located at the Detroit Medical Center, and we will be able to wait the couple minutes in the nice new heated transit center, so the Winter shouldn't be that bad anymore. We can take the People Mover over to the Ren Cen to go to the dentist. If there is an emergency, we can hail a cab, or take our car. Yes, my family owns a single car, and there is nothing wrong with owning a car. The difference is that for us and most urban residents, the car is a luxury, not a necessity.

Honestly, this one was probably our last new car, and possibly our last car in general. We really do not use it much, just for vacations, visiting family, and for emergencies. Really, we have a car because we used to need one. In the future, those needs can probably be met by transit for day to day use, a cab for emergencies, and a rental car for longer trip. All of this together is still cheaper than owning a car, let alone two or more! Living in a city is much more economically sustainable than living in a unwalkable suburb.

[Stosh]

Here's a good illustration how we shape up as a region in terms of Sustainability. It's not just about transportation. And out of the governments in the area, I applaud Ferndale for having, at the very least, a energy policy. Ann Arbor as well. Detroit and others, not so much.

[Stosh]

There are two large grocery stores, one in Midtown, another in Lafayette Park, should I need them. Like most Downtown Detroit apartment buildings, there is a small convenience store in each building, or within a nearby building. There is a new deli near the new transit center, and there are several pharmacies within walking distance. My daughter's pediatrician is going to be located at the Detroit Medical Center, and we will be able to wait the couple minutes in the nice new heated transit center, so the Winter shouldn't be that bad anymore. We can take the People Mover over to the Ren Cen to go to the dentist. If there is an emergency, we can hail a cab, or take our car. Yes, my family owns a single car, and there is nothing wrong with owning a car. The difference is that for us and most urban residents, the car is a luxury, not a necessity.

Honestly, this one was probably our last new car, and possibly our last car in general. We really do not use it much, just for vacations, visiting family, and for emergencies. Really, we have a car because we used to need one. In the future, those needs can probably be met by transit for day to day use, a cab for emergencies, and a rental car for longer trip. All of this together is still cheaper than owning a car, let alone two or more! Living in a city is much more economically sustainable than living in a unwalkable suburb.

Boy oh boy, lucky you, that you can afford to live downtown, in a shoebox of an apartment. Priceless. Where's your baby going to play at? On Cass? Oh yeah, right, there's always the playscape at the Campus Martius.

[DetroitDad]

True enough, but that was predicated on having viable businesses that served the population. Bakers, shoe stores, the whole mom/pop thing. That's dead, if you haven't noticed. And not just in Detroit, suburbs as well. Which is why the nitpicking on the suburbs puzzles me. It's all the same general shitpot, no matter where you go.

Sustainability also entails a lot of other factors outside of geography. Energy efficiency is one factor. I'd bet that heating and cooling costs eat a significant portion of many resident's and businesses income. Having lived in flats and houses around Detroit for years, I can testify all about the inefficiencies of the housing stock, as well as various business buildings.

I'd say for what it's worth, that the suburbs may have an edge overall in this factor due to more recent construction. Whether they are built with substandard materials or not doesn't concern me. In terms of sustainability, if they have more than a nominal insulation factor, they are more sustainable than a home that is leaking heat like a sieve.

Sorry, try again, suburbanites have a much bigger carbon footprint than their current urban counterparts; http://daily.sightline.org/daily_sco...bon-footprints

Oh, and don't forget to figure in the energy costs of new construction, their sprawling nature, and the fact that plenty of suburban families do not share carbon footprints together in duplexes or buildings, but instead they each live in their own giant mcmansion. Sorry, the suburbs are the pinnacle result of the age of excess, and arguing that they are sustainable is just ridiculous.

[DetroitDad]

Boy oh boy, lucky you, that you can afford to live downtown, in a shoebox of an apartment. Priceless. Where's your baby going to play at? On Cass? Oh yeah, right, there's always the playscape at the Campus Martius.

Well, the apartment is actually a pretty good size and we aren't going to be there forever, but I agree that Downtown Detroit is at a huge lose when it comes to parks or playscapes. The suburban park system is far superior. However, I do question the future viability of the suburban parks. As these communities face more and more cuts based on a dwindling tax base in the next few years, how are they going to keep up those great parks and services that make them superior to the city?

It looks to me like many of the Detroit suburbs are facing the very real possibility of rising taxes and diminishing services. Johnlodge assumed that I thought everyone would immediately pick up and move to the city as the suburbs fell, I do not. I think some will, but not for awhile. It's going to be chaos out there in the way that it was chaos when Detroit fell. When you look just a few short years down the road, what area makes more sense to move to?

[DetroitDad]

Here's a good illustration how we shape up as a region in terms of Sustainability. It's not just about transportation. And out of the governments in the area, I applaud Ferndale for having, at the very least, a energy policy. Ann Arbor as well. Detroit and others, not so much.

That seems about right. Do you have a link to the list of 50? I find it hard to believe that there are that many big cities above us in a couple categories.

LEED building standards used to not take into account square footage, has that been changed yet, or are they still calling single family mcmansions "green"? Green building in the exurbs is a waste when you have a good home and building supply in the inner suburbs and city that just need to be renovated. Building new itself makes many of these things unsustainable.

[DetroitDad]

Here's the Tribune Article describing the project.:
http://dailytribune.com/articles/200...0005515100.txt




By Michael P. McConnell, Daily Tribune Staff Writer

David N. Posavetz/Daily Tribune Developer Peter Najar, left, and Hazel Park City Manager Ed Klobucher stand near the excavating machines that knocked bricks out of the massive and blighted Warehouse Club building on Eight Mile near Dequindre.


Warehouse Club building being demolished to make way for green design.

HAZEL PARK — A longtime commercial eyesore on Eight Mile Road promises to blink back to life with a $12 million redevelopment project.

Two huge yellow excavating machines Thursday took bites out of the empty brick Warehouse Club building, formerly a Federal Department Store.

Hazel Park City Manager Ed Klobucher, Tami Salisbury of the Eight Mile Boulevard Association and developer Pete Najar embraced in a three-way hug as they watched the first bricks fall.

Located at 1727 Eight Mile, the 70,000-square-foot building and massive asphalt parking area cover eight acres. It has been the largest vacant business property

in the city for about a decade and a symbol of unchecked blight near Dequindre where Wayne, Oakland and Macomb counties share a border.

"This is a great day for Hazel Park," Klobucher said. "We're pleased to bring some good news to the region."

City and county officials were on hand for a ceremonial celebration and a chance to look at renderings of the new development.

"Full-scale demolition will begin on Monday," Najar said.

The Gateway Crossing development will include a new Sav-A-Lot grocery store, a 49,000-square-foot retail and office building, and a couple of out buildings are planned for the site, Najar said.

He credited Hazel Park with giving the site a brownfield designation and tax breaks totaling $1.4 million to spur the development.

"This is only possible because the City of Hazel Park bent over backwards to help make it happen," Najor said.

The project also got a $500,000 tax incentive from the Michigan Economic Development Corporation.

Highlights of the project include adding 100 trees and shrubs and 600 feet of "bioswales" at the rear of the property. The bioswales include landscaping trees and vegetation on topsoil placed in a drainage ditch that removes silt and pollution from runoff rainwater on the parking lot.

"This will be a very green development," Najor said.

Demolition is expected to take about six weeks with construction set to get under way late this summer.

Salisbury is credited with bringing together city and development players to work out problems to get the project going.

"Historically, the relationship was not always as cozy as it is today," Klobucher said.

Salisbury has said the vacant property contributed to the stigma attached to Eight Mile Road, but the project will help reverse that impression.

Once completed, the Gateway Crossing development is expected to bring about 300 jobs to the city.

I am excited about projects like this. I just wish that they did a little more to promote pedestrian activity.

[Stosh]

That seems about right. Do you have a link to the list of 50? I find it hard to believe that there are that many big cities above us in a couple categories.

LEED building standards used to not take into account square footage, has that been changed yet, or are they still calling single family mcmansions "green"? Green building in the exurbs is a waste when you have a good home and building supply in the inner suburbs and city that just need to be renovated. Building new itself makes many of these things unsustainable.

The link to the 50 is: http://www.sustainlane.com/us-city-rankings/

Here's the whole thing in a nutshell. Green building isn't that hard. Superinsulating a building at construction R-60 ceiling/roof , R-20 in the walls, and the edges of the slab too, will give you a building that you can heat just from solar alone, with lighting adding heat as well. Cooling costs much lower too. It's really not all about place, or transportation.

It's the renovation costs that are really driving up the costs for green building in the city and inner ring. Retrofoam, that blow in foam fill, sounds easiest for an older building. That will give you a substantial R value, but the costs may be prohibitive for some. That's only in houses, though. You can't do this on cinder block or concrete structures.

Having checked out the site you mentioned, I decided to check out the source of the data. 2000 census data is a little dated. The census blocks I checked had income levels significantly below the median. That explains the lack of cars, they can't afford them. Remember, the devil himself can quote scripture and use it for his own purposes.