Dead Metro Detroit Malls *Universal, Livonia and Summit Place Mall pictures included*

[iheartthed]

Ok that's valid. But let's take a case in point in Detroit, Chene and Ferry. While the physical characteristics of the site hasn't changed, the streetscape and the neighborhood sure has. Use Google Maps to get a more accurate picture of what I am talking about.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...74.59,,0,-0.43

Try roaming down the side streets from here to get a little better picture of the neighborhood.

Yes, the street scape there has changed considerably. But my position is that it will be easier, and more cost effective, to improve the street scape at Chene and Ferry than it will be to change the area around Big Beaver and Crooks Rd into a walkable community.

[Stosh]

Yes, the street scape there has changed considerably. But my position is that it will be easier, and more cost effective, to improve the street scape at Chene and Ferry than it will be to change the area around Big Beaver and Crooks Rd into a walkable community.

I beg to differ. Remember the little link and article I posted above?

How has your community changed environmentally?

• Has air quality in the urban areas gotten better or worse?
• Are there more or fewer warnings about eating fish caught in local streams?
• Has the water quality gotten better or worse?

~There's a little problem there with an incinerator. Maybe you have heard of it.

[Stosh]

And for good measure, just in case that they decided to put some high rise apartments right in the intersection, here's the skinny on the walkability. Not shabby. And there's sidewalks there. From the intersection of BB and Crooks:

http://www.walkscore.com/get-score.p...+Troy+MI&go=Go

[iheartthed]

Okay......

[Downtown diva]

Most of suburban Detroit, just like most areas of suburban America, is unsustainable.

please enlighten us. because most of suburban detroit is unsustainable, which communities are you referring to?

[DetroitDad]

And for good measure, just in case that they decided to put some high rise apartments right in the intersection, here's the skinny on the walkability. Not shabby. And there's sidewalks there. From the intersection of BB and Crooks:

http://www.walkscore.com/get-score.p...+Troy+MI&go=Go

That walk-ability index is misleading. Having things within walking distance is only part of the equation, they must also be built to encourage and accommodate walking. Nobody is going to walk across a parking desert, past huge spacing between structures, or across an eight lane monstrosity, especially when the nearest cross walk is a half mile away.

The other issue is that most people are just not going to regularly walk along a busy feeder street or across freeway pedestrian bridges. The few people who do regularly walk across [[or near) pedestrian bridges and along feeder streets face huge health risks from fine particle matter, the tiny pieces of that gritty sand on the side of the road that ends up air born. *Some of the risks associated with what I will call second hand driving is asthma, abnormal lung growth in children, bronchitic problems, lung cancer, and birth defects among other things.

The other problem is that the suburban "zones" [[residential, commercial, industrial, dense industrial, etc.) are divided by walls, moats, or freeways. Many suburban developments were designed for driving. Livonia and Westland Mall had these giant cinder block walls separating their parking lots from the homes and senior condo high rises behind them. You couldn't walk to these malls unless you went in the opposite direction and looped around the wall.

The suburban model was designed for cars to take precedence over pedestrians, while the urban model is designed around pedestrians, with cars being there just to make life a little easier.

*http://cfpub1.epa.gov/ncer_abstracts.../abstract/8459

[Stosh]

That walk-ability index is misleading. Having things within walking distance is only part of the equation, they must also be built to encourage and accommodate walking. Nobody is going to walk across a parking desert, past huge spacing between structures, or across an eight lane monstrosity, especially when the nearest cross walk is a half mile away.

It's fairly easy to place interesting businesses in outlots of businesses that have existing lots. It's called zoning overlays. All you need is a plan, and with the correct amount of cash, presto, a walkable community that actually has someplace interesting to walk to.

The other issue is that most people are just not going to regularly walk along a busy feeder street or across freeway pedestrian bridges. The few people who do regularly walk across [[or near) pedestrian bridges and along feeder streets face huge health risks from fine particle matter, the tiny pieces of that gritty sand on the side of the road that ends up air born. *Some of the risks associated with what I will call second hand driving is asthma, abnormal lung growth in children, bronchitic problems, lung cancer, and birth defects among other things.

Why not? They do it all the time along Woodward, and all along the myriad stretches of freeway within Detroit. Another interesting feature is something that you may not be aware of. Traffic lights can be placed almost anywhere these days. Amazing technology. Lets you cross at the light.

The other problem is that the suburban "zones" [[residential, commercial, industrial, dense industrial, etc.) are divided by walls, moats, or freeways. Many suburban developments were designed for driving. Livonia and Westland Mall had these giant cinder block walls separating their parking lots from the homes and senior condo high rises behind them. You couldn't walk to these malls unless you went in the opposite direction and looped around the wall.

Yeah damn those city planners that wanted a barrier to keep the mall customers out of people's back yard. I suppose they could have gotten a ladder or something if they really wanted to pop over. And I really love my industry right next to me... Nothing like waking up to the sound of scrap metal hitting the ground or the thump of a steel press. Ask the people around the Packard Plant how they like their neighbor.

The suburban model was designed for cars to take precedence over pedestrians, while the urban model is designed around pedestrians, with cars being there just to make life a little easier.

Really? Is that why they gutted the trolley cars? Built the freeways? Wow.

[crawford]

Most of Detroit city proper was built during the automobile era, and is only semi-walkable, the way most inner suburbs are semi-walkable.

The parts of Detroit that are pre-autombile era are largely abandoned or destroyed. Downtown/Midtown is walkable but not even 10% of the city.

Then there's the safety issue, which is definitely a consideration. Gratiot & 6 Mile may be semi-walkable, but most people would not walk it, given a choice. A large proportion of the city [[probably most of the city) has safety issues [[thugs and stray dogs, mostly) that are not present in most suburbs.

[reddog289]

shoulda got on here sooner, I liked the pics of the now closed malls brought back some good memories.I remember taking the 7mile bus to Livonia Mall with my Grandma, Then my Grandpa would pick us up and we would stop at the Kroger at the 7/Grand shopping center.I can say I remember Wonderland and Northland being open air malls. Wonderland even had a zoo type deal if I remember right.
Wayne Mi had its own little mall which was pretty empty when I was a teen over 20 yrs ago.One of the stories I heard was that Westland mall could have been built smack dab in the middle of downtown Wayne. Imagine that?.
Going into whole burbs/city fight.I belive what does keep alot of inner ring burb stores open is the lack of stores in the city, But that would be for another time and place.

[DetroitDad]

Actually, no, it is not all in his head. On many threads, for the past few months, you never miss a chance to bring up how crappy and unsustainable suburbs are or that other people's choices not to live downtown is somehow a detriment to your family. I have noticed it because it is really annoying and they are typically not well thought out arguments.

Age has everything to do with sustainability- it proves that a community's layout has worked. How exactly are the inner ring suburbs unsustainable? Please explain this. Where I live has fared pretty well- people still want to live there, there is access to public transportation, there are independent businesses [[and a few chains), good schools, great city services, actual grocery stores. It isn't even dependent on Detroit's water system. Detroit could fall in the lake and it would not matter except a few of us would have to go find new jobs. How is being independent not sustainable?

HAHAHAHA... good one!

The car driven sprawl suburbs aren't old enough to see if they are sustainable for the long term, neither is the car. So far they've showed us they aren't, just look at the above mentioned malls.

Anyway, let's switch this to the "suburbs are unsustainable" thread.

[DetroitDad]

It's fairly easy to place interesting businesses in outlots of businesses that have existing lots. It's called zoning overlays. All you need is a plan, and with the correct amount of cash, presto, a walkable community that actually has someplace interesting to walk to.




Why not? They do it all the time along Woodward, and all along the myriad stretches of freeway within Detroit. Another interesting feature is something that you may not be aware of. Traffic lights can be placed almost anywhere these days. Amazing technology. Lets you cross at the light.



Yeah damn those city planners that wanted a barrier to keep the mall customers out of people's back yard. I suppose they could have gotten a ladder or something if they really wanted to pop over. And I really love my industry right next to me... Nothing like waking up to the sound of scrap metal hitting the ground or the thump of a steel press. Ask the people around the Packard Plant how they like their neighbor.



Really? Is that why they gutted the trolley cars? Built the freeways? Wow.

Well yeah, and it would be pretty easy for Detroit to build it's own version of Downtown Dubai. All you need is a plan, and with the correct amount of cash, presto, Detroit could have the world's tallest skyscrapers.

[NoHeartAnthony]

I remember going to Summit Place to get "Hacksaw" Jim Duggan's autograph when I was 4 or 5.

[Stosh]

Well yeah, and it would be pretty easy for Detroit to build it's own version of Downtown Dubai. All you need is a plan, and with the correct amount of cash, presto, Detroit could have the world's tallest skyscrapers.

Then they'd stay empty and become fodder for the scrappers and urban explorers. Or suck the life out of the rest of Downtown. Building more skyscrapers is most definitely unsustainable. Building a walkable, modern, sustainable, energy efficient low rise area is.

[iheartthed]

please enlighten us. because most of suburban detroit is unsustainable, which communities are you referring to?

It would be easier for me to name the suburbs that I'm not referring to...

But as a for instance, let's compare Dearborn and Westland. These two cities have many similarities: they have a similar number of residents, a similar population density, they are situated fairly close to each other. But a fundamental difference between the two cities is that Westland is only accessible by either car or bus, while Dearborn is accessible by bus, car and train.

So when it becomes prohibitively expensive for most people to fund a 45 minute car ride to work, would people be more likely to choose to live in Westland or Dearborn? Dearborn would be the most logical choice simply because you have an alternative transportation option to connect you to other points in the region and/or nation. By being on the rail line, Dearborn has a non-automotive transportation connection to Detroit, Ann Arbor and the airport. Westland currently does not [[to my knowledge).

Dearborn being accessible by train also allows them to build a much denser environment, should they choose to do so, that Westland could never support, since it doesn't have the transportation infrastructure... This despite that at this point in time these are two very similar cities in terms of population and density.

And more suburbs in Metro Detroit are in Westland's situation rather than Dearborn's.

[jcole]

It would be easier for me to name the suburbs that I'm not referring to...

But as a for instance, let's compare Dearborn and Westland. These two cities have many similarities: they have a similar number of residents, a similar population density, they are situated fairly close to each other. But a fundamental difference between the two cities is that Westland is only accessible by either car or bus, while Dearborn is accessible by bus, car and train.

So when it becomes prohibitively expensive for most people to fund a 45 minute car ride to work, would people be more likely to choose to live in Westland or Dearborn? Dearborn would be the most logical choice simply because you have an alternative transportation option to connect you to other points in the region and/or nation. By being on the rail line, Dearborn has a non-automotive transportation connection to Detroit, Ann Arbor and the airport. Westland currently does not [[to my knowledge).

Dearborn being accessible by train also allows them to build a much denser environment, should they choose to do so, that Westland could never support, since it doesn't have the transportation infrastructure... This despite that at this point in time these are two very similar cities in terms of population and density.

And more suburbs in Metro Detroit are in Westland's situation rather than Dearborn's.

You say that Dearborn is accessible by train, but take into consideration where that train stops. The stops are Pontiac, Birmingham, Detroit, Dearborn then Ann Arbor. The next stop is Jackson. This isn't designed to get people to work and back. Unless you work within a 6 block radius of one of those stops, you still need transport to get to your job. Besides if you live in Westland, it's not a very long drive to park your car at the Dearborn station. Also consider cost. A round trip ticket from Dearborn to Pontiac is $22. I think it would be considerably cheaper to drive.

[iheartthed]

You say that Dearborn is accessible by train, but take into consideration where that train stops. The stops are Pontiac, Birmingham, Detroit, Dearborn then Ann Arbor. The next stop is Jackson. This isn't designed to get people to work and back. Unless you work within a 6 block radius of one of those stops, you still need transport to get to your job. Besides if you live in Westland, it's not a very long drive to park your car at the Dearborn station. Also consider cost. A round trip ticket from Dearborn to Pontiac is $22. I think it would be considerably cheaper to drive.

It is cheaper to drive now. That may or may not be true in the future.

Even if it's not a very long drive to the Dearborn station, it will require people who live in Westland to 1) own a car, and 2) use [[expensive) gas to drive to Dearborn. This will potentially make the cost of living in Westland outweigh whatever benefit it may have over Dearborn [[and off the top of my head, I can't think of anything in Westland that you couldn't get from Dearborn).

Now, I'm not saying that personal automobile usage will completely disappear, because that is not gonna happen. But more people are gonna prefer an environment where they have alternative transportation options than one where they don't [[especially so if the cost of driving is not dirt cheap). So those areas with alternative options will benefit from higher housing demand, thus higher property values, more tax revenue, being more attractive for commercial development, etc.

[jcole]

Regardless, unless they work in Pontiac, B'ham, Detroit's New Center area, Royal Oak or Ann Arbor, they will still need transport from the train station to wherever it is they work.
So following your reasoning, everyone will move to a town where Amtrak has a station and work in another town where Amtrak has a station. Further, they will find homes and jobs within walking distance of said station.
Rentals and housing costs in those locations would really skyrocket, wouldn't they? And then wouldn't it be just as economical to drive to where you work?

[iheartthed]

Regardless, unless they work in Pontiac, B'ham, Detroit's New Center area, Royal Oak or Ann Arbor, they will still need transport from the train station to wherever it is they work.
So following your reasoning, everyone will move to a town where Amtrak has a station and work in another town where Amtrak has a station. Further, they will find homes and jobs within walking distance of said station.
Rentals and housing costs in those locations would really skyrocket, wouldn't they? And then wouldn't it be just as economical to drive to where you work?

I'm not saying that everyone will move to those places. I'm saying that those will be the most desirable places to live.

[aoife]

HAHAHAHA... good one!

The car driven sprawl suburbs aren't old enough to see if they are sustainable for the long term, neither is the car. So far they've showed us they aren't, just look at the above mentioned malls.

Anyway, let's switch this to the "suburbs are unsustainable" thread.

DetroitDad, I am not talking about far flung ex-urbs that are too new to know if they are sustainable. Everyone knows they are piles of crap. I am talking about inner ring suburbs that have proven themselves self sustainable for the better part of a century. Which is clearly stated in my original post. If you are going to bother to reply to a comment please actually try and understand the question posed first.

[Thames]

HAHAHAHA... good one!

The car driven sprawl suburbs aren't old enough to see if they are sustainable for the long term, neither is the car. So far they've showed us they aren't, just look at the above mentioned malls.

Anyway, let's switch this to the "suburbs are unsustainable" thread.

EVERYTHING you post can moved to the "suburbs are unsustainable" thread, doesn't matter what thread it started out on.

You are to the point where you are obviously not reading what is written and just replying in the most obnoxious way you can think of.

I guess you're still young enough to blame your parents for your obnoxious behavior. People around here tend to that until someone is well into their twenties and you're not there yet.

[Catman]

........I can say I remember Wonderland and Northland being open air malls. Wonderland even had a zoo type deal if I remember right.....

My father used to work as a security guard at Wonderland Mall during it's open-air era. I spent much time there. I do remember these big round cylinder wire cages in the court-yard areas that held various animals....racoons, exotic birds, and if I remember correctly, spider monkeys. Montgomery Wards at Wonderland had for many years a big parrot that lived in a huge bird cage in the store.

[tahleel]

I still go to Universal Mall from time to time. I actually go there for the Cinemark movies a few times a month with my girlfriend. Its the best way to enjoy movies that are relatively new, without breaking the bank. It's the only place still open in the mall besides this clothing store that I always see closed. Its possible that we always go to the late show and thats past their store hours.

I haven't been to Northland in years. Not since my family lived near 7 mile. Oh, how the times change. Now that I am older and have the ability and means to spend money, these places are now gone [[or close to it).

-Tahleel

[reddog289]

Catman, You got me thinking of where that parrot was in the Monkey Ward. It was kinda sad to see that mall decline and close the way and speed it did. Oh well everything changes.You know to think of it I belive Mr Positive used to sell memberships to the fitness center in what I call the Folands entryway to the mall.

[Meddle]

AJ Foland's.

Now there's a blast from the past.

[reddog289]

While I cannot say much about Universal Mall,. I have figured out that no brainer that when a Mall loses its anchor stores its existance is up in the air.Having been to the Westland Mall last week for the first time since Christmas I have noticed that there are some newer independant shops that have set up. While it is good that there is something in these spaces. I hope that Westland and the other area malls do not suffer the same fate as the malls listed in the title of this thread.
Tel Twelve was another one mall that I went to quite often. Having lost Crowleys and Wards it had to reinvent itself. I cannot see Malls such as 12 Oaks and Fairlane closing, Yet with JC Penny building there own separate stores away from the malls. The smaller malls might have to fight a little bit more to stay around.
But with the case of Wonderland, Looking back I think I liked it better as an open air mall.But then again I wish I had been old enough to see the downtown Detroit dept stores in their prime. Guess you had to be there.