City Council says, get your #&!*@% Art out of my Paradise Valley

[thecarl]

An aside that I would like to offer, once and for all, for all its worth. There was no STATUE of Jesus immersed in a vat of piss. There was no dung 'smeared' across anybody's Madonna. The first was a PHOTOGRAPH, consisting of a trinket purchased in a variety store that was then placed in a beaker of the artist's own urine. There was never any actual urine displayed anywhere. The second was a very detailed painting of a Black Madonna, ornately decorated with paint and glitter and sequins, where the entire canvas sat on preserved balls of elephant dung as pedestal.

In both cases, the artists were responding to their respective heritages and backgrounds---Serrano and his reading of Catholicism and its references to bodily fluids in its rites, plus, in the case of the trinket, to the commercialization that would endorse the creation of a plastic Jesus; and Ofili, responding to his diverse and African/Christian culture with the collision of rituals and symbols.

I am so sick of people repeating hearsay and taking it as gospel. Have you seen the "smears" or the urine within the context of the exhibitions they were in or read about them in magazines or text that discussed the work in question?

Far be it for me to try to convince anyone to like this work....that is not the issue. But ignorance is NOT blissful when comments such as those are paraded around as convenient ways to sully any work that is not instantly understood, or as our 'Council' will term, "abstract".

1. Piss Christ is a controversial 1987 photograph by photographer Andres Serrano. It depicts a small plastic crucifix submerged in a glass of the artist's urine. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ)

2. Ofili depicted a black Madonna with an exposed breast made from dried elephant dung encrusted with beads. Surrounding her were tiny putti, made from body parts cut from pornographic magazines. [[http://www.undo.net/cgi-bin/openfram...hint%26home%3D)

okay, leoqueen, you'd better rein in your indignation over mischaracterizations of these "art pieces," because the descriptions in the original posts bear far better depictions than your defensive backpedaling does. never mind the fact that while you presume to be an artist and invite the world to be open interpretations, you demand that the serrano and ofili pieces be described in the same strict and concrete terms which an artist hopes that an admirer should be able to vacate or transcend.

[gnome]

TheCarl, I appreciate your point of view but these Paradise Valley art pieces have nothing to do with urine, yet. At least not until Django gets back in town.

In an effort to get back on subject; if the Council wanted a literal interp of the former Paradise Valley, they should have hired Skidmore or Pangborn or some such graphics company to do something conventional. Frank is spot on with his taco comment. Why would anyone be surprised that Tyree would do a Tyree type of piece.

[LEOQUEEN]

i remember being at the guggenheim in new york, studying a piece that contrasted modern society with the humanity of yore. it featured a small, black, misshapen plastic object in the center, surrounded by a metal surface reflecting the faces of the people that gazed upon it. the outer area represented natural materials and how we could see ourselves and humanity within - but at the core, everything was reduced to a grave, hardened, unfeeling piece of resin derived from a laboratory and mass-produced in a factory. it was in the center to signify that everything over the course of civilization had led to "this." and lastly, the piece demonstrated the power that amassed technology had over the fate of the planet: when the small plastic center was moved into the "off" position, the lights in the room were extinguished - as if our world had been eliminated from space and time. it was a stunning and provocative work done by the noted artist, "leviton."

LMAO!!!! Thanks, thecarl, that was a hoot! Just to let you know that I DO have a sense of humor! That last sentence had me rollling. You could write for ARTFORUM.....errr, you don't write for them, do you??

[thecarl]

LMAO!!!! Thanks, thecarl, that was a hoot! Just to let you know that I DO have a sense of humor! That last sentence had me rollling. You could write for ARTFORUM.....errr, you don't write for them, do you??

thanks leoqueen! i'm seriously glad you enjoyed it! and if you noticed, i did not dismiss [[in my original post) the notion of someone desecrating a symbol i, or other people, find precious. i was only using the "smear" comparison in an overall essay about why i'm not particularly in favor of the art pieces city council does not covet. i'm more on your side than what you might think!

[LEOQUEEN]

off topic slightly to thecarl...
I have always been suspicious of certain brand names like 'leviton' [ leave it on] or 'wachovia' [ watch over ya ].

Maybe its because I grew up in a house with a couple of paranoid people....

[thecarl]

leoqueen, seriously: i've been paranoid that one day i might get shot driving by cody, which i drive by almost every day - and suddenly, i've been cured of my paranoia!

[Zimm]

And, whether you like the art or not, this is the kind of not-so-subtle as the poster apparently thinks racist spew one sees far too often on this site.

poor Eastside Al, whose own desire to call "racism" and inability to see the real issues causes him to think mine was a post about race, when in fact it was a post about poor decision making by empowered fools.

"Onward christian soldiers, onward as to take Eastside Al's tiara..."

i won't even touch the sentence structure and thought coherency issues...

[blksoul_x]

I'm trippin' to why any of the 'basic-white people' on this board would bother themselves with the happenings at the Paradise Valley project [[aka African Town Initiative) __To be sure, most 'Dyers' have refuted and scandalized the Paradise Valley project from day one. I can't wait to hear the outraged by the 'basic-whites people' when the first BLACKS ONLY sign go up. [[wishful thinking...)

Seriously though, I'm with the Council on this, the art work ought to be more indicative toward the Black experience in amerikkka'.

Like someone alluded to up the thread, It just ain't Black enough!

blksoul_atcha!
The BLJ, The Color you love to hate!

[ZRX Doug]

Ah, BSX..how I've missed you..
Your brilliant insight and sharp wit are like a refreshing breath of intelligence and light..only stupider and mostly dark.

[KOMPOST]

Whether this is "good" art or "bad" art is beside the point. What I am troubled by is why, in a city with so many pressing needs and so few resources, is money being spent on something that is so unnecessary?

Along with "my kid coulda done that", I knew we'd see one of these, as well.
Unnecessary art. Hmmmm...
Thanks for the chuckle.

[Melocoton]

So when Councilmember Collins says that "Paradise Valley was not about modern, Picasso-type stuff," and a poster above says the work is too abstract and therefore "ain't black enough," are we to take from this that Black people can't understand Picasso? Or abstract art more than half a century after Picasso? Maybe she'd just prefer a nice representational statue of Barbara Rose Collins on horseback.

So many other things wrong with Collins' statement, as a few have already stated: the fact that jazz is modern and abstract, for one.

[Jmil]

"are we to take from this that Black people can't understand Picasso?"

How about you take from that the poster & BRC don't like abstract or Picasso. Being a "Black people" I feel insulted that you would think that two people could speak for an entire group.

How folks can get so indignant over something so subjective as art is beyond me. And regardless of how many artsy folks take up arms in defense of art, I STILL don't like the pieces. I also don't like pickles or tomatoes. FARMERS UNITE!

[Melocoton]

How about you take from that the poster & BRC don't like abstract or Picasso. Being a "Black people" I feel insulted that you would think that two people could speak for an entire group.

The point was that this is what BRC is implying herself, not what I am saying.

[Locke09]

Isn't it possible to "understand" something and still not find it appealing?

I understand "cubism". I don't find it appealing, although I do find some of it interesting. I think I understand what Tyree Guyton is getting at. I don't find any of his work appealing or interesting. Both are examples of categories of art that I find assault and irritate my senses, or just plain bore me, rather than draw me in and compel me to examine them closely. They don't make me go "ahhh" or "aha" or "wow". They don't move me with any emotion at all or than the need to escape the assault on my eyes and nervous system.

And there are other times when I have to wonder whether an artist is being creative or is just plain lazy [[a piece of plastic surrounded by sheet metal makes me wonder).

Impressionism is a form that soothes me and gives a sensation of something that is alive. Murals can draw me in for hours looking at the various depictions that the artist felt were important to the subject that the artist is dealing with. These two forms seem to me, as a layperson, in direct juxtaposition to cubism and Tyree Guyton's form of art. I know why I don't like one and do like the other.

[Retroit]

Along with "my kid coulda done that", I knew we'd see one of these, as well.
Unnecessary art. Hmmmm...
Thanks for the chuckle.

Since you already know what we are going to say, why do you even bother to read our posts?
Unnecessary posts. Hmmmm...
Thanks for the chuckle.

[EastSider]

"are we to take from this that Black people can't understand Picasso?"

How about you take from that the poster & BRC don't like abstract or Picasso. Being a "Black people" I feel insulted that you would think that two people could speak for an entire group.

How folks can get so indignant over something so subjective as art is beyond me. And regardless of how many artsy folks take up arms in defense of art, I STILL don't like the pieces. I also don't like pickles or tomatoes. FARMERS UNITE!

BRC was speaking as a councilperson, an elected representative of residents of Detroit, so it's her job to speak for an entire group of people.

Now, if you want to debate whether any of her statements on any given day make sense, you may, but that's a different story all together.

[Jmil]

So glad there are such intelligent people on this board to help us ignorant. I was so totally unaware that ALL Black people lived in Detroit and were represented by BRC.
Thanks for straightening that out for me. I would hate for it to get out that I didn't know that.

[Locke09]

BRC was speaking as a councilperson, an elected representative of residents of Detroit, so it's her job to speak for an entire group of people.

Now, if you want to debate whether any of her statements on any given day make sense, you may, but that's a different story all together.

Semantics, semantics.

It is not so black and white [[no pun intended) as that. Elected officials speak and act "on behalf" of an entire group of people. They don't speak the minds of an entire group of people, and this is what Jmil is talking about. Neither do they speak the experiences or knowledge of an entire group of people. They don't even speak the values of an entire group of people.

When BRC is establishing policies and voting yea or nay, she is acting for an entire group of people. When she is giving her subjective opinion, she is speaking for herself [[unless others specifically asked her to say what she said). To believe otherwise sets up a contradiction. Namely, councilpersons disagree with each other. Is each of them individually speaking for an entire group of people? The same group of people? If so, the people have a personality disorder. But of course they aren't. They recognize that they have people with varying tastes, values, beliefs, etc. BRC was speaking for herself and possibly imagining that "the people" agree with her.

[crawford]

It's a joke anyway. Paradise Valley is to the north and east. This isn't Paradise Valley. This is Harmonie Park.

They might as well call Evergreen and 12 Mile Paradise Valley.

[Melocoton]

I don't think BRC speaks for anyone but herself, and same for Kenyatta, and same for any politician. My point is that when she starts saying what Paradise Valley was not "about," she IS making claims about African-American culture in general, since the point of the Paradise Valley project is to commemorate Detroit's black culture.

For her, art that is modern or difficult or non-representational [[i.e., abstract) doesn't have a place in "Paradise Valley," and that seems 1) historically false, given the contributions of black artists and musicians to the modernist movement in art and 2) really condescending.

Now, I haven't seen the work outside of those lousy photos the Detroit News published, so I can't say what I think about it personally. And I'm no art expert and not even a real big fan of art in general. But if the problem is that BRC and Kenyatta just don't like the pieces, then they really should just shut up. They don't have any right to dictate their own tastes in art to the public, especially when [[as in BRC's case--KK isn't quoted much in the original article) they don't appear to know what they're talking about.

[Gistok]

Maybe it will clash with Paradise Valley's German architecture...

[edgewood]

I can only assume that those who don't have a clue how to use a welder, plasma cutter, and die grinder believe that this shit is truly art. Take a class at any vocational school and you too could be a run of the mill modern artist! That's right, because I would have taken that pile of twisted metal to the scrap yard. Joe Schmoe, the pipe bending guy from the muffler shop could replicate that in a half days work, and at a fraction of the cost.

Yes perhaps, if that muffler shop has a bronze casting foundry. Otherwise, not so true.

[REL]

Fnemecek: "The City Council's current reaction is the equivalent of someone walking into a Chinese restaurant and expressing outrage they don't have tacos on the menu."

Agreed!

I actually like the pieces, and think they are relevant to the project. But if BRC and Mr. Kenyatta had something else in mind, I'm dying to see what they would design.

[LEOQUEEN]

Todd Erickson is a great artist and a greater guy. I saw his work in the foundry before I knew where it was destined to go; it struck me as being so completely wonderful. He is one of our local artistic treasures, like Charles McGee.

This is my two cents. No one need reply. Just my opinion.

[news09]

Detroit gallery owner who commissioned Paradise Valley art owes the IRS, public records show.
http://www.detnews.com/taxwatchdog