NAACP Attorney on EM Federal Lawsuit

[Honky Tonk]

City acts like fool. Citizens pay the price

Just thought I'd correct one of your statements.

[Wesley Mouch]

Thank you, H.T.

[corktownyuppie]

The restructuring gets pension protection with or without an EM. The most dangerous scenario is a bankruptcy run by EM instead of the local elected government. The EM has no interest or need to ensure long term growth and by law the EM must look to satisfying creditors first. Chapter 9 doesn't have that requirement. Additionally, a condition of Chapter 9 is that there has to be agreement among parties in order to do anything. There is no requirement of selling assets without agreement, which means that the lawsuits you envision would be far more difficult to have standing.

Some of what you say is true. But there are other points which I believe are either inaccurate or overlooked.

[[1) Pension protection is not guaranteed in Federal Bankruptcy. The state constitution protects pensions. But if we're filing for Chapter 9, we're not doing it State Court. It's going to the Feds, where all bets are off.

[[2) Bankruptcy has a major advantage in that it's probably more "fair" in the due process perspective. But even though you are right that many lawsuits will be "more difficult to have standing" doesn't mean that Robert Davis and 200 other creditors are going to file anyway and appeal every single decision until it's 3 years later and we still don't have resolution.

I would be far more in favor of bankruptcy resolution if it could be done within 18 months and at much less expense than through an EM. And in either case, we will still need a restructuring consultant to represent the city and make sure that when this is all said and done, we are survivable and solvent.

We will see....

[compn]

due to past discrimination in voting, Michigan is one of 16 states under jurisdiction of section five of the civil right act. Accordingly, any change in voting has to get prior justice department approval. The state didn’t do that, he said.

with the supreme court killing the voters rights act, there goes the NAACP lawsuit.
the EM is here to stay!
are we going to have a parade now?

supreme court decision is sickening. congress isnt going to fix this.

[nain rouge]

When the bill comes due on our country's trillions and trillions of ballooning debt, I don't want to hear any of you EM supporters whining when the EU appoints an EM to run the United States.

[Wesley Mouch]

Some of what you say is true. But there are other points which I believe are either inaccurate or overlooked.

[[1) Pension protection is not guaranteed in Federal Bankruptcy. The state constitution protects pensions. But if we're filing for Chapter 9, we're not doing it State Court. It's going to the Feds, where all bets are off.

[[2) Bankruptcy has a major advantage in that it's probably more "fair" in the due process perspective. But even though you are right that many lawsuits will be "more difficult to have standing" doesn't mean that Robert Davis and 200 other creditors are going to file anyway and appeal every single decision until it's 3 years later and we still don't have resolution.

I would be far more in favor of bankruptcy resolution if it could be done within 18 months and at much less expense than through an EM. And in either case, we will still need a restructuring consultant to represent the city and make sure that when this is all said and done, we are survivable and solvent.

We will see....

CTY: Why is speed better than best result? So long as the course we are taking is clear, I don't see a problem.

The question of 'survivable and solvent' really is the big one. That's why bankruptcy is better. If we get through EFM-land, many will think everything's back to normal. With bankruptcy, more oxen will be gored and with much less political games.

Sometimes it is better to take stronger medicine to get healthier, hence 'suvivable and solvent'.

[evergreen]

with the supreme court killing the voters rights act, there goes the NAACP lawsuit.
the EM is here to stay!
are we going to have a parade now?

supreme court decision is sickening. congress isnt going to fix this.

I repeat: The State of Michigan was never a covered jurisdiction under Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act. Most of the jurisdictions covered by that are former Confederate states. I don't want to say that this utter misstatement of the law is typical of Mr. Hollowell, but he was Duggan's "election attorney."

[313WX]

with the supreme court killing the voters rights act, there goes the NAACP lawsuit.
the EM is here to stay!
are we going to have a parade now?

supreme court decision is sickening. congress isnt going to fix this.

I thought it was Section 4 that was repealed, not Section 5?

[313WX]

I repeat: The State of Michigan was never a covered jurisdiction under Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act. Most of the jurisdictions covered by that are former Confederate states. I don't want to say that this utter misstatement of the law is typical of Mr. Hollowell, but he was Duggan's "election attorney."

Someone in the thread explained it earlier.

His argument is that since the law that was passed impacts the two Michigan counties that are under Section 5's jurisdiction, it violates the Voting Rights Act.

[Wesley Mouch]

Someone in the thread explained it earlier.

His argument is that since the law that was passed impacts the two Michigan counties that are under Section 5's jurisdiction, it violates the Voting Rights Act.

OK, maybe I'm slow. How does the EM affect voting? There are still elections, no? There are still elected officials, no? Just with significantly reduced powers, but all the powers provided by law?

?

[mwilbert]

OK, maybe I'm slow. How does the EM affect voting? There are still elections, no? There are still elected officials, no? Just with significantly reduced powers, but all the powers provided by law?

Maybe it doesn't. But consider how Massachusetts basically hamstrung the Irish newcomers in Boston in the late 19th century. As the Irish become politically dominant in the city, the Yankees removed various powers from the city and made them metropolitan or state functions, or placed state oversight on things like awarding contracts. This was done specifically to limit the power of the Irish.

Now in 1900 there wasn't any kind of Federal law that would prevent that, but if that situation were happening today and the Irish were a group whose rights were protected under the VRA, it is arguable that it wouldn't be legal. I see the EM as an even greater cession of power from the local political unit and thereby from its voters than the Metropolitan District Commission or the Boston Finance Commission was in Massachusetts.

So I can understand the argument, even though I don't really believe it and think that the appointment of the EM was a good thing.

[313WX]

OK, maybe I'm slow. How does the EM affect voting? There are still elections, no? There are still elected officials, no? Just with significantly reduced powers, but all the powers provided by law?

?

In Detroit, yes [[at the discretion of Kevyn Orr). Granted, I'm sure it just for show until the lawsuits blow over.

But in places such as Pontiac, DPS and Flint? The elected officials were dismissed long ago. It's written clear as day in the law that the pay of elected officials ends once the EM begins its job.

[Wesley Mouch]

Maybe it doesn't. But consider how Massachusetts basically hamstrung the Irish newcomers in Boston in the late 19th century. As the Irish become politically dominant in the city, the Yankees removed various powers from the city and made them metropolitan or state functions, or placed state oversight on things like awarding contracts. This was done specifically to limit the power of the Irish.

Now in 1900 there wasn't any kind of Federal law that would prevent that, but if that situation were happening today and the Irish were a group whose rights were protected under the VRA, it is arguable that it wouldn't be legal. I see the EM as an even greater cession of power from the local political unit and thereby from its voters than the Metropolitan District Commission or the Boston Finance Commission was in Massachusetts.

So I can understand the argument, even though I don't really believe it and think that the appointment of the EM was a good thing.

I see your point here. Still seems like a stretch. In the case of the Massachusetts Irish, you don't cite any reasons for the shift of voting from local to regional. Here in Black Detroit, there were widely recognized reasons for the voting pattern shift. But of course we saw this week at the Supreme Court level that they are capable of insinuating race into nearly everything in pursuit of an intangible such as 'diversity', whatever that means.

[compn]

The Detroit NAACP believes that the [[emergency manager) law is not being applied evenly and that the process of appointing managers is flawed and unfair. About 50 percent of Michigan's African-American population is now under the control of an emergency manager.

"We believe there is a disparate impact on African Americans in this state," he said. "The city of Walled Lake was not given an emergency manager, yet they have a $10 million deficit."

http://www.freep.com/article/2013062...-voting-rights

Buena Vista and Clyde townships became covered jurisdictions in the mid-1970s

http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/vot/sec_5/covered.php
^ lists the two michigan townships.


i think the point was that without section 4 , they can change whatever they want. only after proving your vote has been disenfranchised, can you seek relief/injuction against said changes. section 5 relies completely on section 4.
wikipedia [[and the freep article quoting the senator) says those two townships are now no longer covered under the VRA.

this is some important shit. ignore this at your own peril.

In her dissent, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg referenced an infamous incident involving state Sen. Scott Beason, R-Gardendale,

Ginsburg writes: "Recording devices worn by state legislators cooperating with the FBI’s investigation captured conversations between members of the state legislature and their political allies. The recorded conversations are shocking. Members of the state Senate derisively refer to African-Americans as 'Aborigines' and talk openly of their aim to quash a particular gambling-related referendum because the referendum, if placed on the ballot, might increase African-American voter turnout. ... These conversations occurred not in the 1870’s, or even in the 1960’s, they took place in 2010."

http://www.annistonstar.com/view/ful...-Court-dissent
or read the supreme court opinion/dissent here:


http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions...12-96_6k47.pdf

In fact, Congress found there were
more DOJ objections between 1982 and 2004 [[626) than
there were between 1965 and the 1982 reauthorization
[[490).

[compn]

as to how the EM law affects elections:
bob in buena vista votes in the school board election.
the state puts in an EM who fires the school board.
bob's vote is now worthless. bob is now disenfranchised from voting in the future.
in effect, the EM has changed how the election works.

which is the whole point of the voters rights act, that they had to get clearance from the DOJ before changing the law. but thats all gone now with the supreme court decision.

if i'm understanding this correctly.

[Wesley Mouch]

as to how the EM law affects elections:
bob in buena vista votes in the school board election.
the state puts in an EM who fires the school board.
bob's vote is now worthless. bob is now disenfranchised from voting in the future.
in effect, the EM has changed how the election works.

which is the whole point of the voters rights act, that they had to get clearance from the DOJ before changing the law. but thats all gone now with the supreme court decision.

if i'm understanding this correctly.

Bob however will be able to vote in a school board election for the new district, no?

So this is more like redistricting, right?

If you follow the line of reasoning, it would suggest that any intervention in a school district in a neighborhood of color is impossible.

[Eber Brock Ward]

as to how the EM law affects elections:
bob in buena vista votes in the school board election.
the state puts in an EM who fires the school board.
bob's vote is now worthless. bob is now disenfranchised from voting in the future.
in effect, the EM has changed how the election works.

which is the whole point of the voters rights act, that they had to get clearance from the DOJ before changing the law. but thats all gone now with the supreme court decision.

if i'm understanding this correctly.

you're missing a bit, i'll fix it for you below.

- bob in buena vista votes in the school board election
- bob also votes for his state representative, state senator, and governor
- the state puts in an EM who fires the school board.
- bob is still served by his elected representatives , who could have gone so far as to abolish the school district, but instead just chose to put an EM in place

[mwilbert]

Bob however will be able to vote in a school board election for the new district, no?

So this is more like redistricting, right?

If you follow the line of reasoning, it would suggest that any intervention in a school district in a neighborhood of color is impossible.

It wasn't impossible to change districts under the VRA, but areas with a history of voting rights violations had to get the changed pre-approved. It was just a higher level of scrutiny.

In the case of the Massachusetts Irish, you don't cite any reasons for the shift of voting from local to regional

The main reasons were that the Yankees were Republican and the Irish were Democrats, and that the Yankees didn't like the Irish and thought that their politics was corrupt. Kind of similar to Michigan now, really.

[Wesley Mouch]

It wasn't impossible to change districts under the VRA, but areas with a history of voting rights violations had to get the changed pre-approved. It was just a higher level of scrutiny.

The main reasons were that the Yankees were Republican and the Irish were Democrats, and that the Yankees didn't like the Irish and thought that their politics was corrupt. Kind of similar to Michigan now, really.

Thanks. So tell us your version of how we got from this active discrimination to the success of the Kennedys. What can we learn here about how to get past our current mental logjams?

[compn]

well it looks like they werent going to put an EM up for buena vista, but just close it from the legislature. so my example was all wrong.

[Danny]

Cut it out, Melvin "Butch" Howell! Cut it out NAACP! That anti EM lawsuit will not make it pass the Michigan Court of Appeals. It goes into the circular file. Now about doing something esle for a change like teaching black kids to stay in school, get them an education and get them to stay away from crime, drugs and robbing and killing people.

[Scottathew]

NAACP is irrelevant. They're still fighting a battle that they've already won. They need to move onto the next battle.

Promoting safe sex, education, non-violence, and anti-gang messages is what they should be doing.

It's also time they change their name. I would change it to NAAP - National Association for the Advancement of People.

Their efforts and membership would still mainly be focused on underprivileged black people, especially youths, but they shouldn't draw a line at only helping "colored" people.

[Wesley Mouch]

NAACP is irrelevant. They're still fighting a battle that they've already won. They need to move onto the next battle.

Promoting safe sex, education, non-violence, and anti-gang messages is what they should be doing.

It's also time they change their name. I would change it to NAAP - National Association for the Advancement of People.

Their efforts and membership would still mainly be focused on underprivileged black people, especially youths, but they shouldn't draw a line at only helping "colored" people.

There's so much the NAACP could do. Things to improve lives. I wonder if the NAACP represents any young black people. Is there a strong organization for younger, more progressive blacks?

Image if the NAACP and Jesse Jackson came out and advocated drug legalization. Help sit-ins at drug houses. Held rallies against the corruption by blacks on blacks. They could make a difference.

[Jimaz]

DetroitYES Home » Non Detroit Issues » Thom Hartmann » The Case for Socialism...