Westland considering banning the carnival due to gang fights.

**Newdetroit** · May-31-13, 12:38 AM

I was shocked to hear that there were gang fights at St. Mary's Fair in Orchard Lake.....Orchard Lake!!!! Same thing in Westland.
http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/22...-ban-carnivals

**stasu1213** · May-31-13, 04:56 AM

This could be part of that 'Flash Mob" strategy. Flash Mobs comes in all colors and seek to disrupt any positive events.

**313WX** · May-31-13, 05:23 AM

There must be something in the tap water.

While I agree the problem must be nipped in the bud, banning carnivals outright seems like such a knee-jerk reaction [[instead of just increasing the policing).

I was enough with that loon running Warren having the stupid knee-jerk reaction of banning all pet sales [[instead of simply increasing the monitoring of these stores), but then Westland doubles down with this.

**aj3647** · May-31-13, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

[[instead of just increasing the policing).

Police officers don't grow on trees, and they don't work for free. Every officer you put at that carnival is one less patrolling the streets. There are practical and financial considerations here, these municipalities already are cash-strapped and have seen their police forces shrink in size. How much can these small municipalities really handle when their carnivals act as magnets for dozens of gang members from Detroit or Pontiac?

**313WX** · May-31-13, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by aj3647

Police officers don't grow on trees, and they don't work for free. Every officer you put at that carnival is one less patrolling the streets. There are practical and financial considerations here, these municipalities already are cash-strapped and have seen their police forces shrink in size. How much can these small municipalities really handle when their carnivals act as magnets for dozens of gang members from Detroit or Pontiac?

Oh please. Westland has relatively very little crime problems and 105 sworn officers.

If it can't delegate a few more officers for these type of events, then there's a problem with management. It can even request help from the WCSD or neighboring communities.

Royal Oak manages to handle its events just fine with only 64 sworn officers.

**Honky Tonk** · May-31-13, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

Oh please. Westland has relatively very little crime problems and 105 sworn officers.

If it can't delegate a few more officers for these type of events, then there's a problem with management. It can even request help from the WCSD or neighboring communities.

Royal Oak manages to handle its events just fine with only 64 sworn officers.

It seems to be everyone's damn fault except the perpetrators.

**313WX** · May-31-13, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

It seems to be everyone's damn fault except the perpetrators.

With effective management, you can handle the perpetrators.

**jackie5275** · May-31-13, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by aj3647

Police officers don't grow on trees, and they don't work for free. Every officer you put at that carnival is one less patrolling the streets.

As someone who works in law enforcement and has worked a number of church festivals, I can say you are mistaken. Regular duty officers don't work festivals/carnivals. It's reserve officers that work these events.

**aj3647** · May-31-13, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by jackie5275

As someone who works in law enforcement and has worked a number of church festivals, I can say you are mistaken. Regular duty officers don't work festivals/carnivals. It's reserve officers that work these events.

Westland PD does not have a reserve or auxiliary unit, at least not one that I can find any information about on the internet. So if Westland PD wants to put more officers at the festival, that means more overtime or fewer guys out on the streets.

**compn** · May-31-13, 06:17 AM

juggalos, the most dangerous carnival gang.

**Bham1982** · May-31-13, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by Newdetroit

I was shocked to hear that there were gang fights at St. Mary's Fair in Orchard Lake.....Orchard Lake!!!! Same thing in Westland.

St. Marys Fair is surrounded by tough areas. Yes, tiny Orchard Lake [[population 2,000) is fancy, but Pontiac, Keego Harbor and Waterford are anything but. That fair has always attracted a rougher element.

**Zacha341** · May-31-13, 09:19 AM

Sad but some teens have a determined agenda to be disruptive for sport! Soon as the ruckus starts they are as many people fighting as there are phones 'held' up to capture the joy for upload to the sites that celebrate this mess: worldstarhiphop, youtube, tumblr. etc.

**Eric_c** · May-31-13, 09:39 AM

If there are "gangs" in Westland, they're home-grown, not from Detroit. They may have roots there, but Inkster, Wayne and south Westland are more than capable of making their own trouble. Garden City, too.

**Bham1982** · May-31-13, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by Eric_c

If there are "gangs" in Westland, they're home-grown, not from Detroit. They may have roots there, but Inkster, Wayne and south Westland are more than capable of making their own trouble. Garden City, too.

I always thought Westland was a bit rough around the edges. I remember people calling it "Worstland". That whole area of suburban Wayne, while filled with perfectly decent people, does have some economic and social challenges.

**Honky Tonk** · May-31-13, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I always thought Westland was a bit rough around the edges. I remember people calling it "Worstland".

NEVER! It was always "Wasteland".

**Novine** · May-31-13, 10:00 AM

"St. Marys Fair is surrounded by tough areas. Yes, tiny Orchard Lake [[population 2,000) is fancy, but Pontiac, Keego Harbor and Waterford are anything but. That fair has always attracted a rougher element."

The gangs of Keego Harbor? Somedays, DY posters do their best impression of the Onion.

**Bham1982** · May-31-13, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Novine

"St. Marys Fair is surrounded by tough areas. Yes, tiny Orchard Lake [[population 2,000) is fancy, but Pontiac, Keego Harbor and Waterford are anything but. That fair has always attracted a rougher element."

The gangs of Keego Harbor? Somedays, DY posters do their best impression of the Onion.

Have you been to Keego Harbor [[it's tiny, I bet most haven't)? It's about one-third trailer park.

I'm not saying Keego Harbor has gangs [[I have no idea whether that's true) or is some horrible place to live, but the original comment implied "Wow, in Orchard Lake of all places", when Orchard Lake is a tiny affluent community of 2,000 folks surrounded by 150,000 much less affluent folks in Pontiac, Waterford, and Keego.

**313WX** · May-31-13, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Have you been to Keego Harbor [[it's tiny, I bet most haven't)? It's about one-third trailer park.

I'm not saying Keego Harbor has gangs [[I have no idea whether that's true) or is some horrible place to live, but the original comment implied "Wow, in Orchard Lake of all places", when Orchard Lake is a tiny affluent community of 2,000 folks surrounded by 150,000 much less affluent folks in Pontiac, Waterford, and Keego.

Being less affluent doesn't neccessarily mean being more criminal [[and vice-versa).

**Bham1982** · May-31-13, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

Being less affluent doesn't neccessarily mean being more criminal [[and vice-versa).

I totally agree. But the implication was "how could there be gangs in hoity-toity Orchard Lake", when the St. Marys Fair isn't really in a generally hoity-toity area. Orchard Lake [[the community) is just the narrow perimeter of the lake itself, when everything inland is in a different community.

**Novine** · May-31-13, 03:08 PM

"Orchard Lake is a tiny affluent community of 2,000 folks surrounded by 150,000 much less affluent folks in Pontiac, Waterford, and Keego."

If Orchard Lake is surrounded by anything, it's surrounded by West Bloomfield. Next you'll entertain us with tales of the gangs of Sylvan Lake or the gangs of Walled Lake.

**Bham1982** · May-31-13, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Novine

"Orchard Lake is a tiny affluent community of 2,000 folks surrounded by 150,000 much less affluent folks in Pontiac, Waterford, and Keego."

If Orchard Lake is surrounded by anything, it's surrounded by West Bloomfield. Next you'll entertain us with tales of the gangs of Sylvan Lake or the gangs of Walled Lake.

Except I didn't even allude to gangs. I said the area wasn't affluent, and was adjacent to rougher areas, which is true.

**Zacha341** · May-31-13, 11:49 PM

Are we really talking here solely about GANGS per se or 'groups' of teens that facebook and instagram each other to go to a given place to hang and act out?

Originally Posted by Novine

"Orchard Lake is a tiny affluent community of 2,000 folks surrounded by 150,000 much less affluent folks in Pontiac, Waterford, and Keego."

If Orchard Lake is surrounded by anything, it's surrounded by West Bloomfield. Next you'll entertain us with tales of the gangs of Sylvan Lake or the gangs of Walled Lake.

**Newdetroit** · May-31-13, 08:31 PM

Orchard Lake is one of the most affluent areas! Secondly, people from the hood of Pontiac never come to Orchard Lake and it is further away than Bloomfield hills and Bloomfield township etc. The people who come to St. Mary's Fair generally are from West Bloomfield, Farmington Hills, Keego Harbor, Commerce Township, Bloomfield and Birmingham areas. All upper middle class areas [[except keego harbor) I have overheard people saying that these gangs are the result of the influx of Detroiters who have moved into West Bloomfield and Farmington Hills during the last decade as this is a recent phenomenon. .....not people from Pontiac.

**aj3647** · May-31-13, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by Newdetroit

Secondly, people from the hood of Pontiac never come to Orchard Lake and it is further away than Bloomfield hills and Bloomfield township etc. The people who come to St. Mary's Fair generally are from West Bloomfield, Farmington Hills, Keego Harbor, Commerce Township, Bloomfield and Birmingham areas. All upper middle class areas [[except keego harbor) I have overheard people saying that these gangs are the result of the influx of Detroiters who have moved into West Bloomfield and Farmington Hills during the last decade as this is a recent phenomenon. .....not people from Pontiac.

And you know all of this because you did an exhaustive survey of the festival attendees and asked them where they lived?

**Newdetroit** · June-01-13, 03:02 AM

Originally Posted by aj3647

And you know all of this because you did an exhaustive survey of the festival attendees and asked them where they lived?

No, I spoke to people who knew which high school most of the trouble makers went to. West Bloomfield High, Harrison, and North Farmington. Also, most of the people referred to in the "gangs" are black youth. I have lived in the area for 40 years and have attended this festival for the last 25 years. Pontiac has historically had a large black population for the last 25 years. It has only been in the last 5 years that more black youths are attending this fair. So I highly doubt the Pontiac black youth just found out about it and decided to start coming to the fair.

From 2000 to 2010, the black population of Farmington Hills grew from 7% to 18% and in West Bloomfield grew from 5% to 12%. During the same period, attendance of black youths increased at the fair. These two cities will become the next Oak Park and Southfield in the next 20 years as more whites will move.