Mackinaw Policy Conference

[DetroitPlanner]

So quick to worry about charters. Always looking hard for something to beat them up with.

There's a difference. If a charter fails to educate, they are gone. If the DPS fails to educate, they just get more money. So you see the difference? Government directly run schools => certified to protect against nepotism and bureaucratic stupidity/favoritism. Charter schools => anything goes and let the parents decide if they're good.

Charter schools in themselves are hardly the answer to poor schools. In many ways they can be seen as a drain of resources from the public schools. Many of the problems school districts are experiencing comes from a loss of students to charters. They have built an infrastructure to take care of x number of kids only to see that they now have empty schools. Charters also increase the amount parents have to drive to get their kids to schools. No buses!

We have set up a school system that is a lot like DDOT and SMART operating on the same route but serving different passengers. It duplicative and wasteful.

[Wesley Mouch]

Charter schools in themselves are hardly the answer to poor schools. In many ways they can be seen as a drain of resources from the public schools. Many of the problems school districts are experiencing comes from a loss of students to charters. They have built an infrastructure to take care of x number of kids only to see that they now have empty schools. Charters also increase the amount parents have to drive to get their kids to schools. No buses!

We have set up a school system that is a lot like DDOT and SMART operating on the same route but serving different passengers. It duplicative and wasteful.

They may or may not be the answer. I do understand your logic. They are certainly a stress on public schools.

The counter-argument is that public schools were their own drain on public resources. Per pupil spending by public schools has skyrocketed. Quality has not. Simply increasing funding to public schools didn't work. Parents in wealthier areas just buy education for the children. Parents in poorer areas have fewer choices. Ms. Rhee didn't want to support Charters, but she also couldn't bring herself to tell parents that they have no choice but to send their kids to schools that weren't delivering results.

DDOT and SMART are two public monopolies serving what is one region. You might choose to look instead at Delta vs. Southwest.

I do not believe that the problems with urban schools today are mainly the result of defunding in favor of charters.

[Novine]

"I'm glad the attendees heard her talk, I hope with an open mind. Not hate because she is willing to hurt a few adults in the pursuit of education for children."

No mention of the cheating scandals during Rhee's tenure? Using student performance as the basis for raises or firings? Who could imagine that might turn out badly...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...rhee-included/

[DetroitPlanner]

Parents in wealthier areas just buy education for the children. Parents in poorer areas have fewer choices. Ms. Rhee didn't want to support Charters, but she also couldn't bring herself to tell parents that they have no choice but to send their kids to schools that weren't delivering results.

The difference is mostly a social one, not a geographic one. A child with parents who are active in their education will excell. Major issues that the poor areas have are that too many parents are dis-engaged. This disengagement may be due to working too many hours or in other cases a lack of caring.

[Wesley Mouch]

"I'm glad the attendees heard her talk, I hope with an open mind. Not hate because she is willing to hurt a few adults in the pursuit of education for children."

No mention of the cheating scandals during Rhee's tenure? Using student performance as the basis for raises or firings? Who could imagine that might turn out badly...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...rhee-included/

I knew there were accusations. I don't see that they have much substance. Read your article, and have read others. Lots of accusations by people with vested interests. Do you put weight in birthers, too? A lot of the quotations were from people with vested interests. Randi Weingarten? She think the most important thing she can do is look into cheating in Washington DC? What a surprise. No, there's no politics at play here are there.

All said, cheating in testing environments is a valid issue. Doesn't mean testing is a bad idea.

[mwilbert]

There's a difference. If a charter fails to educate, they are gone.

This is simply not true. Some charters do get closed, but there are many charters that continue to exist despite more-or-less total academic failure. Check out [[for example) Covenant House East in Detroit. Casa Richard [[another Detroit charter) actually improved substantially last year, but it should have been closed years ago if remaining open were dependent upon educational success.

[Wesley Mouch]

MW, I thought charter attendance was voluntary. AFAIK, remaining open only works if the parents don't make another choice. Maybe as bad as these academies are, the parents like it better than DPS?

[mwilbert]

MW, I thought charter attendance was voluntary. AFAIK, remaining open only works if the parents don't make another choice. Maybe as bad as these academies are, the parents like it better than DPS?

It is true that charters can't remain open if no one chooses them, but that isn't the same thing at all. Most parents [[and I'm not only talking Detroit parents here) have a limited ability to figure out which schools are the right ones academically for their kids. Parents may also have other priorities, like a convenient location or school hours or keeping their kids away from a particularly undesirable gang.

[Wesley Mouch]

It is true that charters can't remain open if no one chooses them, but that isn't the same thing at all. Most parents [[and I'm not only talking Detroit parents here) have a limited ability to figure out which schools are the right ones academically for their kids. Parents may also have other priorities, like a convenient location or school hours or keeping their kids away from a particularly undesirable gang.

Valid concerns.

So we're faced with two choices. Kill Charters because parents can make imperfect decisions and remove parental choice. Or get the best information we can out to parents -- and let them make an informed decision of what's best for them and their children.

[mwilbert]

Valid concerns.

So we're faced with two choices. Kill Charters because parents can make imperfect decisions and remove parental choice. Or get the best information we can out to parents -- and let them make an informed decision of what's best for them and their children.

I'm not against charters, I just don't believe that bad charters get shut down promptly or that most parents make good decisions, that most parents are capable of using information effectively, or that they necessarily have goals that are in alignment with what the general public might think are the goals of public education.

As I have stated many times on this forum, I don't think the DPS should exist at all. I don't really believe in vouchers in general, for the reasons I just mentioned as well as some others, but if there was ever a district that should be voucherized, DPS is it.

[Novine]

"So we're faced with two choices. Kill Charters because parents can make imperfect decisions and remove parental choice. Or get the best information we can out to parents -- and let them make an informed decision of what's best for them and their children."

Or how about this novel idea, the organizations that are supposed to be overseeing the charters actually provide some oversight. Also, since they are spending taxpayer dollars, provide some transparency and oversight into the operations of those spending the tax dollars.

"All said, cheating in testing environments is a valid issue. Doesn't mean testing is a bad idea."

Who said testing was a bad idea? Tying teacher pay and bonuses to student performance on testing has led to cheating scandals in multiple school district. That's a sign that the incentive structure that Rhee advocates for is causing serious problems in those districts. No wonder Rhee doesn't want to talk about the possibility of cheating in DC schools.

[Danny]

That conference at the Grand Hotel in Mackinaw Island is means nothing for me and the State of Michigan. Just polticians TALK, TALK, TALK and not implementing plans.

[Wesley Mouch]

"So we're faced with two choices. Kill Charters because parents can make imperfect decisions and remove parental choice. Or get the best information we can out to parents -- and let them make an informed decision of what's best for them and their children."

Or how about this novel idea, the organizations that are supposed to be overseeing the charters actually provide some oversight. Also, since they are spending taxpayer dollars, provide some transparency and oversight into the operations of those spending the tax dollars.

Since the parents are taxpayers, just give parents transparency. Oversight by bureaucrats doesn't impress me much.

"All said, cheating in testing environments is a valid issue. Doesn't mean testing is a bad idea."

Who said testing was a bad idea? Tying teacher pay and bonuses to student performance on testing has led to cheating scandals in multiple school district. That's a sign that the incentive structure that Rhee advocates for is causing serious problems in those districts. No wonder Rhee doesn't want to talk about the possibility of cheating in DC schools.

Just because a few errant teachers and administrators acted criminally isn't reason to stop rewarding the best teachers, and getting rid of the worst. Just because teachers are afraid that some will get unfairly dismissed, isn't reason to let substandard teachers stay on the job and impeding education.

I don't know if Rhee intentionally ran from a scandal. But what I do know is that teacher's unions use any scandal as an excuse to stop reform. Needed reform. For goodness sake, they're against MORE money for teachers, unless its unconditional and applied to all teachers, including those who suck. Whose side are they on? Children? I'm not seeing it.

[Novine]

"Since the parents are taxpayers, just give parents transparency. Oversight by bureaucrats doesn't impress me much.'

Not good enough. All of us who pay taxes should be assured that, not just the parents of the students, especially since those without kids in the education system are paying the majority of the taxes.

[noise]

Aw geez, poor little officials, they only get to go to Mackinac and not Monaco, and they don't even FLY! [[I wonder if their arms get tired?) Where can I send some money? Maybe we could start a "Snyders Kids" telethon?

Did you miss the point that this is an inexpensive gathering?

[Honky Tonk]

Did you miss the point that this is an inexpensive gathering?

Sorry mon, but that's all relative.

[noise]

Sorry mon, but that's all relative.

Right, and when related to the larger budget I'm sure you'd find it to be minuscule.

The politicians from the UP would probably find it more expensive to meet in Detroit. I'm sure the hotel offers a conference rate, like every other hotel everywhere.