Whole Foods CEO, On Opening Detroit Store: 'We're Going After Elitism, Racism'

[Bham1982]

Here you go with the faulty stats again. It is not the smallest Whole Foods in the world. And you're comparing the largest Whole Foods in Manhattan with the first WF in Detroit.

What store is smaller? When it was announced, WF said it was the smallest store.

The smallest WF stores are generally twice the size of this WF.

And I brought up the Manhattan point because some were claiming that urban locations tend to be smaller than suburban locations because of lack of space. Obviously no place is more cramped than Manhattan, yet the stores seem to be bigger, not smaller, which would lead me to believe that relative size is positively correlated with demand, not negatively correlated with urbanity.

[iheartthed]

What store is smaller? When it was announced, WF said it was the smallest store.

The smallest WF stores are generally twice the size of this WF.

And I brought up the Manhattan point because some were claiming that urban locations tend to be smaller than suburban locations because of lack of space. Obviously no place is more cramped than Manhattan, yet the stores seem to be bigger, not smaller, which would lead me to believe that relative size is positively correlated with demand, not negatively correlated with urbanity.

This past quarter alone they opened a 17,000 square foot store in Brookline, MA [[Boston), and another 25,000 square foot in Indiana.

[TexasT]

What store is smaller? When it was announced, WF said it was the smallest store.

The smallest WF stores are generally twice the size of this WF.

And I brought up the Manhattan point because some were claiming that urban locations tend to be smaller than suburban locations because of lack of space. Obviously no place is more cramped than Manhattan, yet the stores seem to be bigger, not smaller, which would lead me to believe that relative size is positively correlated with demand, not negatively correlated with urbanity.

You are rehashing old arguments that you've already been proven wrong on. Yawn. I'd rather bump the old ones than go through this again.

[TexasT]

Bullshit. Two stores out of 10 million people, both in the hood, neither downtown.

South Evanston is crap. So is the South Side of Chicago. For whatever reason, idiot politicans in Chicagoland thought it was a good use of taxpayer subsidies to put chain stores in areas without market demand.

Now let's go to your original claim. You said that all downtown stores receive subsidies.

I was just in a brand new WalMart Fresh in East Lakeview two weeks ago. Could you point me to the taxpayer dollars used in the opening? I was also in a new Plum Market in Old Town during the same trip. Could you point to the subsidy?

Who said all downtown stores received subsidies? You claimed I did and I did no such thing. You said NONE do and I quickly negated that with a link to a subsidized grocer in a trendy neighborhood in Chicago.

There has already been a lot of discussion about the new Mariano’s grocery store proposed for the corner of Halsted and Monroe streets — most of which centers around $7 million the city is giving the project from our real estate taxes.

Link

Same with Houston, where two stores have been given money to open up in the Heights.

Evanston and Hyde Park are the hood? Thanks for negating your entire opinion in one fell swoop, although you did that when you said West Loop was the ghetto as well. I guess one tiny sliver of Lakeview counts as "not the hood"?

The Walmart in ELV didn't seek incentives, which media pointed out as odd, but it did so so that it didn't have to meet hte city's demands:

There’s also a debate within cities about whether they should use their planning and zoning regulations to block the store. In many urban markets, Walmart isn’t seeking tax incentives, making it difficult for city leaders to make demands. That’s a stark departure from what big-box stores have historically done in the suburbs, where they often play jurisdictions off one another to see who will offer a lucrative package of tax abatements and incentives.

http://www.governing.com/topics/econ...ban-debut.html

[bailey]

This past quarter alone they opened a 17,000 square foot store in Brookline, MA [[Boston), and another 25,000 square foot in Indiana.

Except the Brookline was a purchase of another store, and it would appear that the corporate strategy is to return to larger stores overall.

AUSTIN, Texas — Whole Foods Market here said Tuesday that improving results at larger stores between five and eight years old may prompt it to consider opening stores of mixed sizes going forward.
Locations that Whole Foods opened between 2007 and 2009 “are still comping strongly as they get older,” John Mackey, chairman and co-chief executive officer, told analysts, “and they have higher long-term potential than smaller stores because they offer more parking, less spoilage and greater efficiencies. Many of those stores [of 40,000 square feet to 45,000 square feet] opened when the economy dipped, but sales are up and they are performing well enough that we’re considering opening some bigger flagship stores in certain markets.”
Whole Foods has been focusing on stores of 30,000 to 35,000 square feet in the last few years as it has entered smaller markets, “but we’re now shifting back up to a range of 35,000 to 45,000 square feet,” David Lannon, executive vice president, operations, pointed out.

The company may also seek to acquire smaller stores, as it did when it purchased six Johnnies Foodmaster locations in the Boston area last year. It reopened the first one, in Brookline, Mass., under the Whole Foods banner a month ago — at 16,000 square feet, the smallest Whole Foods in the U.S. — “and it’s off to a good start and doing better than expected,” Lannon said, “and we’re bullish on replicating that strategy.”

Read More: http://supermarketnews.com/natural-f...#ixzz2UhWum6NE

[Eber Brock Ward]

Who said all downtown stores received subsidies? You claimed I did and I did no such thing. You said NONE do and I quickly negated that with a link to a subsidized grocer in a trendy neighborhood in Chicago.

Exactly. Typical Bham trying to move the goalposts.

Professional troll. Best to just bump old threads from this point out.

[Bham1982]

This past quarter alone they opened a 17,000 square foot store in Brookline, MA [[Boston), and another 25,000 square foot in Indiana.

Wow, so maybe they are trying to build smaller locations. The Brookline store, would be slightly smaller than the Detroit store.

Traditionally WF has only built 30,000+ stores. At one point they were only doing 40,000-50,000+ stores, but that stopped with the recession.

[DetroitPlanner]

What store is smaller? When it was announced, WF said it was the smallest store.

The smallest WF stores are generally twice the size of this WF.

And I brought up the Manhattan point because some were claiming that urban locations tend to be smaller than suburban locations because of lack of space. Obviously no place is more cramped than Manhattan, yet the stores seem to be bigger, not smaller, which would lead me to believe that relative size is positively correlated with demand, not negatively correlated with urbanity.

My sister lives in Laguna Beach CA, her Whole Foods is tiny! Can't be more than 10,000 sq ft. Never been iin it, but have been past it several times. Yeah I am sure they are there for liberal reasons too... the liberal spending of money in a market of people who are willing to overpay for a name.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=whole+...12,145.32,,0,0

[gnome]

I picture you people rubbing your hands in demonic glee when you make some silly point over your internet foes.

what a bunch of weenies. Organic, naturally.

[Bham1982]

Who said all downtown stores received subsidies? You claimed I did and I did no such thing. You said NONE do and I quickly negated that with a link to a subsidized grocer in a trendy neighborhood in Chicago.

You claimed that all urban groceries require subsidies, which is obviously not true. I responded that almost all don't receive subsidies, which is also obviously true. I never claimed that this was the first store in the history of the planet to receive a subsidy.

Evanston and Hyde Park are the hood? Thanks for negating your entire opinion in one fell swoop, although you did that when you said West Loop was the ghetto as well. I guess one tiny sliver of Lakeview counts as "not the hood"?

South Evanston is high poverty, and has no nice grocery stores. Same goes for the South Side of Chicago, and the West Side of Chicago. Hyde Park is an island in a sea of poverty.

So your only examples are high poverty zones with no nice groceries. Granted, whether or not it's the "hood" is a value judgement, but there's no disputing the neighborhood demographics.

And the subsidy kind of confirms the point. If it wasn't a high poverty zone, the city wouldn't have to bribe/beg a store to open.

The Walmart in ELV didn't seek incentives, which media pointed out as odd, but it did so so that it didn't have to meet hte city's demands.

But it isn't odd, because, again, grocery stores don't receive subsidies, which is the whole point. 99% of grocery stores don't receive subsidies, whether in Chicago, Detroit, or wherever. There are tons of grocery stores all over downtown Chicago and other urban cores, and they didn't open because of taxpayer subsidies.

[iheartthed]

Wow, so maybe they are trying to build smaller locations. The Brookline store, would be slightly smaller than the Detroit store.

Traditionally WF has only built 30,000+ stores. At one point they were only doing 40,000-50,000+ stores, but that stopped with the recession.

Yes, every store that they opened in the last quarter was less than 35,000 square feet. Seems to be more strategy than anything specific about the Detroit market. I believe the WF opening this fall in Brooklyn will be about the same size as Detroit's [[minus the greenhouse on the roof).

[Bham1982]

I believe the WF opening this fall in Brooklyn will be about the same size as Detroit's [[minus the greenhouse on the roof).

The Park Slope, Brooklyn WF will actually be 52,000 sq. ft., plus a 20,000 sq. ft. greenhouse. The Detroit WF will only be 20,000 sq. ft.

The Williamsburg Brooklyn WF will be 40,000 sq. ft.

So both Brooklyn stores will be significantly larger.

[Honky Tonk]

I picture you people rubbing your hands in demonic glee when you make some silly point over your internet foes.

what a bunch of weenies. Organic, naturally.

Good thought.....

[bailey]

Yes, every store that they opened in the last quarter was less than 35,000 square feet. Seems to be more strategy than anything specific about the Detroit market. I believe the WF opening this fall in Brooklyn will be about the same size as Detroit's [[minus the greenhouse on the roof).

from the article I posted above, smaller stores is apparently not their strategy going forward. http://supermarketnews.com/natural-f...#ixzz2UhWum6NE

Whole Foods has been focusing on stores of 30,000 to 35,000 square feet in the last few years as it has entered smaller markets, “but we’re now shifting back up to a range of 35,000 to 45,000 square feet,” David Lannon, executive vice president, operations, pointed out.

[drjeff]

The Park Slope, Brooklyn WF will actually be 52,000 sq. ft., plus a 20,000 sq. ft. greenhouse. The Detroit WF will only be 20,000 sq. ft.

The Williamsburg Brooklyn WF will be 40,000 sq. ft.

So both Brooklyn stores will be significantly larger.

And what is the population of Brooklyn compared to the population of central Detroit? This arguing about the size of the store is really asinine. WHO CARES!

[TexasT]

You claimed that all urban groceries require subsidies, which is obviously not true. I responded that almost all don't receive subsidies, which is also obviously true. I never claimed that this was the first store in the history of the planet to receive a subsidy.

Wrong and wrong. You said:

But there's no way in hell the local Chicago yuppie-zone grocery store receives tax subsidies to open.

to which I responded:



And then you did the usual, claiming West Loop is ghetto as you did with Hyde Park and Evanston, to which I linked several articles proclaiming West Loop as a trendy magnet for young professionals [[just FYI so we don't have to do the song and dance again).

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...-Downtown-real



That's the thread. Please show where I stated all urban groceries require subsidies.

[iheartthed]

The Park Slope, Brooklyn WF will actually be 52,000 sq. ft., plus a 20,000 sq. ft. greenhouse. The Detroit WF will only be 20,000 sq. ft.

The Williamsburg Brooklyn WF will be 40,000 sq. ft.

So both Brooklyn stores will be significantly larger.

Brooklyn also has 2.5 million residents compared to Detroit's 700,000.

[Bham1982]

Wrong and wrong.
.

All wrong.

Again, the West Side of Chicago is the hood. Please show me one store in Chicago that isn't in a high-poverty zone, and which required taxpayer subsidies to open.

Just one. Gold Coast, Lincoln Park, Streeterville, River North, Lakeview, Old Town, etc. There are dozens and dozens of supermarkets, and I bet not one received taxpayer subsidies to open.

And then you did the usual, claiming West Loop is ghetto as you did with Hyde Park and Evanston, to which I linked several articles proclaiming West Loop as a trendy magnet for young professionals [[just FYI so we don't have to do the song and dance again).

Well that proves it, I guess. Let's ignore the Census stats that show the West Side is high poverty and low income, and just take your word for it that it's a "trendy magnet for young professionals". In fact, so trendy that no grocery store would dare open absent taxpayer subsides!

That's the thread. Please show where I stated all urban groceries require subsidies.

"every city I've ever lived in [[Houston and Chicago included) gave incentives to bring grocery stores to the city."

" Just is what it is; what goes on in suburbs isn't always what works in cities."

"the RULE is subsidization, with the exception to the rule being non-subsidized development."

You keep claiming this, but still haven't come up with one store not in a high-poverty hood. It's pretty obvious this is a very rare occasion if there isn't one single store in a prosperous area, especially in Chicago, which has a rep. for being crazy pro-development, and is infamous for giving out TIF subsidies like candy.

[Bham1982]

Brooklyn also has 2.5 million residents compared to Detroit's 700,000.

I agree with you. I'm just responding to folks that claim that Detroit's WF is small and subsidized because that's just how urban supermarket economics works. Urban grocery stores aren't generally small, and they aren't generally subsidized.

[iheartthed]

Also, speaking of the Gowanus, Brooklyn Whole Foods, it also is the beneficiary of tax credits. It has also taken nearly a decade to get built. Detroit's store moved with lightning speed by comparison:

Two weeks ago, contractors working for Whole Foods finished excavating toxic soil and removing three underground oil tanks. The area was then capped with two feet of clean soil.

Initially, the state Department of Environmental Conservation had expected the clean-up to be done in conjunction with the construction of a grocery store, but Whole Foods backed out of the store even as it made good on the remediation.


Still, the contractor in charge of the clean-up, John Bogdanski, said that there were tax incentives for Whole Foods to build on the property.


“The [clean-up] tax credits pay over the course of 10 years,” Bogdanski told Community Board 6 when the clean-up began. “If the site is sold, those tax credits move with the land [to the new owner].”


The clean-up was carried out as part of a state program that encourages developers to voluntarily decontaminate toxic sites by doling out tax incentives.


This entire process began in 2005 when Whole Foods announced plans to build on the site, which suffered the toxic consequences of a lumberyard, an auto repair shop, and an oil company dating back to the late 1800s.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/b...XhmKPoyAqapiaK

[bailey]

And what is the population of Brooklyn compared to the population of central Detroit? This arguing about the size of the store is really asinine. WHO CARES!

Well, because we're paying the cost to open it. If the market can not support anything more than the smallest store they've built in the entire chain [[they operate others that are smaller, but the were taken over by WF, not built) especially in light of the CEO's strident statement about the motivation behind it's construction, what level of commitment to the market can we expect and what will be the return on the investment?

look, for me the real the issue is not the size, or the subsidy itself... it's the CEO's absolutely ridiculous statement about the opening of the store that just stuck in my craw because it was so obviously a lie.

I'd preferred a more honest statement from him. "Hey, if you want my "halo" brand, you need to pay us for it because we sure as shit aren't going to take any risk setting up in your irrelevant rustbelt city. If you give us enough in bribes we MIGHT build a place almost as big as the green house we're going to slap on the roof of our store in a real city. Certainly nothing approaching what we'd build anywhere we'd expect to make any money....like your tony [[well, "tony" by flyover country standards) suburbs. And no, don't even ask about rehabbing an empty building... do you know where those places ARE? They're closed for a reason! This is all for show really, any losses we take will mostly be made up in free advertising and "good will". Thanks for the 4.5 million in seed money [[which, coincidentally is ALMOST, but not quite my annual comp). We'll make sure to stay open at least 7 years so we don't have to pay any of that back... after that, well, we'll see....you know...capitalism and all that."

[bailey]

Also, speaking of the Gowanus, Brooklyn Whole Foods, it also is the beneficiary of tax credits. It has also taken nearly a decade to get built. Detroit's store moved with lightning speed by comparison:

was the Detroit site a hazmat site? I thought it was a parking lot?

[Bham1982]

Also, speaking of the Gowanus, Brooklyn Whole Foods, it also is the beneficiary of tax credits. It has also taken nearly a decade to get built. Detroit's store moved with lightning speed by comparison:

Ok, but the grocery store isn't receiving subsidies.

There are NY State tax credits associated with remediation of polluted land. The Gowanus WF sits in a Superfund site, so it qualifies for certain tax credits.

It has nothing to do with subsidies for opening a supermarket, though. If they built a condo tower or amusement park, or did absolutely nothing, they would get the same tax credits for the [[very expensive cleanup of) the remediated land.

[Bham1982]

look, for me the real the issue is not the size, or the subsidy itself... it's the CEO's absolutely ridiculous statement about the opening of the store that just stuck in my craw because it was so obviously a lie.

Yes, this is the main point. WF is obviously welcome to build wherever they want. The size and subsidy can be debated, but the comment is absurd.

They picked the whitest and most affluent possible location in the city, also sitting very obviously on the I-75 onramp for DMC staff, and claims it's a vehicle to "fight racism and classism". WF is virulently anti-union, very class-aware marketing, and overwhelmingly locates in rich white areas [[current MI locations- Birmingham/Troy, Rochester Hills, Ann Arbor and West Bloomfield).

Founder & CEO is a Libertarian, BTW.

[michimoby]

On a side note...Brooklyn's getting two Whole Foods?

Well, if I didn't already have my awesome local grocer off the Graham L stop, I'd go there for my flaxseed and yoga pant-laden female watching...