Our Day of Financial Reckoning Is Now Upon Us

[coracle]

I have nothing to lose in this...you ASS U ME that I am with some imaginary 'other side' when I am merely calling out what I see.

My derivative names have gone on for a decade on this forum. Please catch up, I've been childish way before this current debacle. But please, I prefer the term Impetuous.

but you don't have to capitalize it to capitalize on it

I didn't imagine you were on your side so you haven't lost anything, only that you were "...merely calling out what I see"; which I thought was childish; and you confirm that indeed it has been your way for a decade - so I was right! What is your point? Just to call me a childish name?

[Danny]

I don't like those data figures in Kevyn Orr's plan to keep Detroit city government from financial collapse. If he needs to cut the mayor, city counsil and its unions paycheck, that's fine wioth me.

[Johnnny5]

So what's your magic solution then?

I'm sure I'll be drummed out in a chorus off boos, but I think Detroit should sell off works from the DIA if that's what it takes to get the city back to a place where it can prosper again.

Use the cash to pay off debts, put more cops on the street, buy much needed equipment for the fire department, tear down every dangerous vacant building and keep the promises to those who spent their entire lives working for the City of Detroit.

As far as I can tell the lawyers for those on the losing end of a bankruptcy are going to be coming after these assets either way.

[daddeeo]

DIA isn't going anywhere. To suggest them selling assets to pay for city isn't going to happen. They are like the zoo... separate.

[Wesley Mouch]

Progressive is one thing. And Snydely ain't it.

Going back on his word, stuffing legislation down the populace's collective throat using legislative tricks, and performing secret meetings does not make one progressive. It makes one a slimey Snydemaster. He is a sneaky, untrustworthy scammer...likely on the Koch brother's payroll.

Obama went back on his word to close Gitmo.
Obama stuffed healthcare down our throats using legislative tricks.
Obama has held secret meetings on Bengazi.
I disagree with President Obama on most everything.

But...

I respect him as President.

I am glad he has moved us closer to basic health care for all.

Snyder's not perfect. And politics today are ugly.

[Wesley Mouch]

Maybe if you call him "Snydely" again he will magically be out of office?

Or maybe he'll keep being the first *major* political force that this city's had for its good in a long time, after being pillaged by its own politicians and unions.

EBW = brilliant.

Simply put. Surprised how few see this -- and instead remain firmly entrenched in their conservative views and approaches.

[mwilbert]

DIA isn't going anywhere. To suggest them selling assets to pay for city isn't going to happen. They are like the zoo... separate.

I am not sure that you are correct. My single biggest worry about bankruptcy is that the creditors of the city will be able to reach the DIA collection. I agree that for practical purposes they are separate, but whether that is true legally is very questionable.

[313WX]

I am not sure that you are correct. My single biggest worry about bankruptcy is that the creditors of the city will be able to reach the DIA collection. I agree that for practical purposes they are separate, but whether that is true legally is very questionable.

It's laid out clearly in black and white that assets can't be touched in a bankruptcy.

On the other hand, with PA 436, first thing tomorrow Orr can theoretically say "Ok, we're selling off this Van Gogh painting for $100 Million Dollars!!!" and it's a done deal once the first buyer comes along. It's the same with Belle Isle and DWSD.

[detmsp]

I'm sure I'll be drummed out in a chorus off boos, but I think Detroit should sell off works from the DIA if that's what it takes to get the city back to a place where it can prosper again.

Use the cash to pay off debts, put more cops on the street, buy much needed equipment for the fire department, tear down every dangerous vacant building and keep the promises to those who spent their entire lives working for the City of Detroit.

As far as I can tell the lawyers for those on the losing end of a bankruptcy are going to be coming after these assets either way.

Can't pay the bills? Pawn some shit and get some quick cash! What a great plan. Maybe you haven't been paying attention, but this is what Detroit has been doing for years... how's that workin out?

[Danny]

Black home rule in Detroit has officially ended 1975-2013.

Dan Gilbert on Detroit's development.

"Having my business in Downtown Detroit is like having to terraform Mars."

[rex]

So what's your magic solution then?

Clearly a money tree.

[Johnnny5]

Can't pay the bills? Pawn some shit and get some quick cash! What a great plan. Maybe you haven't been paying attention, but this is what Detroit has been doing for years... how's that workin out?

Yeah, that's how life works when you're flat broke and lack the means to pay your debts. I think it's preferable if the alternative is going to be severe cuts to police, fire and to the city employees healthcare and pensions. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but the lives of the people working for and living in Detroit are far more valuable to me than the paintings in the DIA.

[mwilbert]

It's laid out clearly in black and white that assets can't be touched in a bankruptcy.

Not exactly. What it says is that the courts can't force the sale of assets, but a bankruptcy is a negotiation.

[iheartthed]

Not exactly. What it says is that the courts can't force the sale of assets, but a bankruptcy is a negotiation.

Yup. A Detroit bankruptcy would test many of the untested provisions of municipal bankruptcy laws...

[bailey]

Can't pay the bills? Pawn some shit and get some quick cash! What a great plan. Maybe you haven't been paying attention, but this is what Detroit has been doing for years... how's that workin out?

I think perhaps you're the one that hasn't been paying attention, Detroit for years has been borrowing and floating bonds to pay the bills. Selling assets has been blocked each time it is raised.

[gnome]

It's laid out clearly in black and white that assets can't be touched in a bankruptcy.

On the other hand, with PA 436, first thing tomorrow Orr can theoretically say "Ok, we're selling off this Van Gogh painting for $100 Million Dollars!!!" and it's a done deal once the first buyer comes along. It's the same with Belle Isle and DWSD.

All works of art are owned by the Founders Society, not the Detroit Institute of Arts. The Founders Society is not part of Detroit City government.

Now, the City does own the building and if I read things correctly, Orr could sell off the building, but if that was the case I would not be surprised if the Founders bought the building for a fraction of what is owed on it.

So, your wish for a quick little ebay listing on a couple of Monets and Manets ain't gonna find you a big pocket of money.

[bailey]

All works of art are owned by the Founders Society, not the Detroit Institute of Arts. The Founders Society is not part of Detroit City government.

I've heard this both ways. However, this is from the FAQs in the pro DIA millage website artisforeveryone.com from last year.

Who owns the art?
Under the current operating agreement, the collection is owned by the City of Detroit.

Can the city of Detroit sell the art?
Detroit Mayor Dave Bing has provided written assurance, acknowledging that any sale of art is expressly prohibited by the operating agreement between the city and the museum, and the city has no intention of selling art. Should that position ever change, the DIA has consulted legal counsel and would block any attempted sale through legal action.

IF it's no longer the city making the decision...then IHD has a very good point about litigating into uncharted waters.

[Packman41]

...<snip>...I think Detroit should sell off works from the DIA if that's what it takes to get the city back to a place where it can prosper again..

That would be some VERY short-sighted thinking.

Anyone that touches the assets of the DIA can kiss the future of Detroit goodbye. Those assets were donated by the benefactors largely for the use and enjoyment of the people of the region and not just Detroit residents.

Selling off those assets would kill the idea of a regional rescue. Detroit “leaders” allowed this financial mess to occur over the past 50 years. That financial mismanagement accelerated within the last 10 years along with crippling corruption.

Now the talk seems to be that Detroit can only be lifted up out of its own quagmire through regional help. That is, the successful outstate municipalities will be asked to help out Detroit, probably through more State revenue sharing. Those outstate residents are already asking why they are being punished with more taxes to pay for the self-inflicted screw-ups of Detroit.

If Detroit starts to sell the DIA assets you will lose ANY remaining outstate support.

The City of Detroit can no longer go to the bond market and kick the debt can down the road.

Likewise, the City of Detroit cannot expect to use the DIA assets and continue with business as usual.

[compn]

that was a pretty fast report.
you know how long it takes for these departments to even print off a book? a report?
how many creditors and bank reports? banking hours? outsourced bank call centers?
well, to be fair, it says hes still reviewing things.

reading the report now, heres the quick plan:
changing the streetlights to a new ownership and cutting 40,000 lights.
stop running the cities own [[money losing) electrical grid / power re-sale business.
putting a cap on recreational facilities budget.
detroit water/sewage mismanagement, dysfunction and "inability to raise rates". dun dun dunnnnnn!

oh wow. says right there, pa 436 suspends the duty to bargain. union can either go along with this or its over for them. here comes the union busting. 2013 style.

[Johnnny5]

That would be some VERY short-sighted thinking.

I'm not so sure it really matters if it's "short sighted" or not. If it comes down to Detroit reneging on it's debts and obligations to current and former employees it may not have a choice.

[compn]

so hows pontiac doing with its financial manager?

[Gistok]

I'm not so sure it really matters if it's "short sighted" or not. If it comes down to Detroit reneging on it's debts and obligations to current and former employees it may not have a choice.

You way underestimate the litigation powers of the DIA's monied donors... any artwork would take YEARS of litigation before a single item hits the auction block... if ever...

[Wesley Mouch]

that was a pretty fast report.
you know how long it takes for these departments to even print off a book? a report?
how many creditors and bank reports? banking hours? outsourced bank call centers?
well, to be fair, it says hes still reviewing things.

reading the report now, heres the quick plan:
changing the streetlights to a new ownership and cutting 40,000 lights.
stop running the cities own [[money losing) electrical grid / power re-sale business.
putting a cap on recreational facilities budget.
detroit water/sewage mismanagement, dysfunction and "inability to raise rates". dun dun dunnnnnn!

oh wow. says right there, pa 436 suspends the duty to bargain. union can either go along with this or its over for them. here comes the union busting. 2013 style.

Time: An auditor mostly needs only a check register, a deposit register, copies of contracts, lists of assets. Reports from dysfunctional departments probably are of little use and mostly filled with propaganda and distorted views of the finances with curious transactions round and round and round.

Union busting: Really very much needed. There's no place in the public sector for Unions. That said, I don't think there's any interest in busting unions -- except for where they impede reform. Its absurd to think that you send an EFM to Detroit to bust unions. But it certainly is a pleasant side effect.

[Hermod]

Union busting: Really very much needed. There's no place in the public sector for Unions. That said, I don't think there's any interest in busting unions -- except for where they impede reform. Its absurd to think that you send an EFM to Detroit to bust unions. But it certainly is a pleasant side effect.

Franklin D. Roosevelt on public unions:

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=15445

The desire of Government employees for fair and adequate pay, reasonable hours of work, safe and suitable working conditions, development of opportunities for advancement, facilities for fair and impartial consideration and review of grievances, and other objectives of a proper employee relations policy, is basically no different from that of employees in private industry. Organization on their part to present their views on such matters is both natural and logical, but meticulous attention should be paid to the special relationships and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the Government.


All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management. The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress. Accordingly, administrative officials and employees alike are governed and guided, and in many instances restricted, by laws which establish policies, procedures, or rules in personnel matters.

[313WX]

Not exactly. What it says is that the courts can't force the sale of assets, but a bankruptcy is a negotiation.

A bankruptcy is a re-organization of debt, not a negotiation. What happens is the city essentially comes up with a debt payment plan where the creditors would accept pennies on the dollar for their investments and the judge imposes it. The question is whether or not the creditors would want anything to do with Detroit if that were to happen. Then of course there's the question of how disastrous it would be for the state of Michigan's and the surrounding suburbs' credit worthiness.