EFM Roy Roberts Steps Down...

[antongast]

Why are profits at the 'expense' of anyone in your mind. Is it not possible for 'profits' to simply be the fair reward for wise investment?

Profits are money. Money comes from somewhere. In the case of publicly-funded educational institutions, "somewhere" is all of our pockets. Either you deduct money from actually educating children to cover the cost of the profits, or you raise taxes to cover the cost of the profits. If you want to get rich off "wise investments," go hit up Wall Street.

[Wesley Mouch]

Profits are money. Money comes from somewhere. In the case of publicly-funded educational institutions, "somewhere" is all of our pockets. Either you deduct money from actually educating children to cover the cost of the profits, or you raise taxes to cover the cost of the profits. If you want to get rich off "wise investments," go hit up Wall Street.

Wow. You really think its that simple -- that corporations just 'deduct' it from your pockets? And if there were no profits, you'd have heaven-on-earth? Command economies haven't done very well. But why not keep trying it since the schools are doing so well.

[Detroitnerd]

Wow. You really think its that simple -- that corporations just 'deduct' it from your pockets? And if there were no profits, you'd have heaven-on-earth? Command economies haven't done very well. But why not keep trying it since the schools are doing so well.

False choice. Since when was the red brick schoolhouse part of a "command economy"?

[Bham1982]

But why not keep trying it since the schools are doing so well.

Charter school performance is actually lower than that of DPS perfomance, yet we keep closing public schools and replacing them with charters.

And most Michigan charters are for-profit, and receive little scruitiny, yet they receive the exact same amount of state taxpayer funding as the publics. Go figure.

[Wesley Mouch]

Charter school performance is actually lower than that of DPS perfomance, yet we keep closing public schools and replacing them with charters.

And most Michigan charters are for-profit, and receive little scruitiny, yet they receive the exact same amount of state taxpayer funding as the publics. Go figure.

Hammie, consider theses ideas with respect to your statistical point:

1) Education isn't a simple measurement of a static item. Its possible that public schools are improving. Could this be because of competition? I don't know -- but it fits my view of the world where bureaucracies change little unless they have to.

2) The whole idea of charters is to allow innovation and freedom. One should expect that charters are a group won't do much differently than schools in general. But what really matters is whether there are individual schools that are doing better. The entire educational world should then be learning from success, and improving itself.

3) Don't put too much weigh on simple statistics created by someone with a vested interest. You can just as easily find other studies.

[Detroitnerd]

Hammie, consider theses ideas with respect to your statistical point:

1) Education isn't a simple measurement of a static item. Its possible that public schools are improving. Could this be because of competition? I don't know -- but it fits my view of the world where bureaucracies change little unless they have to.

In other words, "I don't have any facts to back up my preconceptions, but I can couch them in such a way to where they fit my preconceptions."

2) The whole idea of charters is to allow innovation and freedom.

Riiiiiggghht. This reminds me of the loosening of regulations on financial institutions, investment banking and "innovative" financial products. That worked out super-well, right?

One should expect that charters are a group won't do much differently than schools in general. But what really matters is whether there are individual schools that are doing better. The entire educational world should then be learning from success, and improving itself.

What is this silly double-talk? What matters is that there are individual schools doing better? There are ALWAYS individual schools that are doing better, under any system. Frankly, charter schools perform so poorly, the lesson the educational world should learn is: Don't privatize public education!

3) Don't put too much weigh on simple statistics created by someone with a vested interest. You can just as easily find other studies.

Speaking of vested interests, you must be aware of the many instances of charter schools falsifying test scores, graduating unqualified pupils, and being unresponsive and unaccountable to the very public they purport to serve.

Frankly, when Bham and I agree on something, it would seem to me the argument is a strong one.

[Wesley Mouch]

I do have my preconceived notions on what works and what doesn't. What we have doesn't work. So let's allow those with new ideas to come in. Conservatives like you who argue against anything new really do make innovation impossible. And the result are the schools that we have in our urban centers.

To argue against innovation because it fails here and there is dangerous. Do you only support things that never fail? Most good things come out of failures. We need to manage our failures -- not to stop failing.

Falsified test scores are not solely owned by charter schools. But you selectively argue so. Bad logic. Again, you choose to see charter cheating as failure, but ignore the Atlanta 2011 scandal? But let's allow that cheating only occurs in charters. Again -- so what. Doesn't mean the idea is bad. Perhaps 1 out of 3 charters deliver quality education -- better that public schools. Why become a reactionary and argue against someone that delivers good to students -- just to favor the current broken system?

I want healthy schools. Don't care how. And don't care who loses their jobs.

Facts? You want I should quote facts? One look at DPS's graduation rates should be fact enough for you to see that something needs to be done. Let go of your hold on the past and try something new.

[Bham1982]

To argue against innovation because it fails here and there is dangerous.

Why do you assume that charters are necessarily innovative? They're basically free of oversight and accountability, but there's nothing inherently innovative about charters per se.

The other major difference between charters and publics is that one is for-profit, and the other isn't.

[Detroitnerd]

I do have my preconceived notions on what works and what doesn't. What we have doesn't work. So let's allow those with new ideas to come in. Conservatives like you who argue against anything new really do make innovation impossible. And the result are the schools that we have in our urban centers.

To argue against innovation because it fails here and there is dangerous. Do you only support things that never fail? Most good things come out of failures. We need to manage our failures -- not to stop failing.

Falsified test scores are not solely owned by charter schools. But you selectively argue so. Bad logic. Again, you choose to see charter cheating as failure, but ignore the Atlanta 2011 scandal? But let's allow that cheating only occurs in charters. Again -- so what. Doesn't mean the idea is bad. Perhaps 1 out of 3 charters deliver quality education -- better that public schools. Why become a reactionary and argue against someone that delivers good to students -- just to favor the current broken system?

I want healthy schools. Don't care how. And don't care who loses their jobs.

Facts? You want I should quote facts? One look at DPS's graduation rates should be fact enough for you to see that something needs to be done. Let go of your hold on the past and try something new.

Nice little speech. Comical, in fact. Full of childish equivocation, rhetorical pussyfooting, faulty reasoning, buffoonish grandstanding and amateur straw-manning.

It reminds me a bit of that speech from Animal House:

"You can't hold a whole fraternity responsible for the actions of a few sick, perverted individuals. For if you do, then you have to blame the entire fraternity system. And if the entire fraternity system is guilty, then is this not an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, Greg! Is this not an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do what you want to us -- but I am not going to stand here and listen to you bad-mouth the United States of America!"

[jt1]

3) Don't put too much weigh on simple statistics created by someone with a vested interest. You can just as easily find other studies.

Funny, because 'simple statistics' like test scores were Engler's rationale for taking over DPS back when enrollment was high and there was a couple hundred million dollar surplus.