I-375 as a boulevard? It's not just us talking about it anymore.

[chicagoforlife]

And another thing, remove that extension of I-75 between I-75/375 and Gratiot.

[ghettopalmetto]

Then you never will. Maybe they can fill in the freeway and open a series of bicycling bars and coffee houses. That'll keep the cash flow coming.

What kind of cash flow is the 8-lane open automotive sewer generating?

These fears of people suddenly avoiding downtown, loss of business, or folks getting lost because of the loss of a short stretch of overbuilt roadway are unfounded. But then again, this is why studies are conducted--to get beyond hyperbole and scare tactics, and find FACTS.

The City of Seattle conducted a similar study in the past, regarding possible removal of the Alaskan Way Viaduct. This is what they found:

1. Reduction of roadway capacity reduces the number of auto trips [[So much for that "congestion" argument.).

2. "Spillover" traffic can be absorbed. [[In other words, traffic would be *distributed* throughout downtown, instead of funneling it all AWAY from downtown at one point.)

3. Freeway removal does not require a major shift to transit [[There goes the "We're not Chicago" argument.).

4. Freeway removal has a catalytic effect.

...and more.

Six case studies [[of actual REALITY, and not fanatical, made-up overemotional hyperbole) presented here:

http://www.seattle.gov/transportatio...%20removal.pdf

[iheartthed]

Then you never will. Maybe they can fill in the freeway and open a series of bicycling bars and coffee houses. That'll keep the
cash flow coming.

Maybe they can. At least the space would then be filled with tax paying businesses.

[marshamusic]

lol.... OK... I'll bite!

I would add to a capped park... a meandering bike path... and the addition of 3 [[currently) oddly located monuments re-planted here... the Millenium [[Cow) Bell moved from an awkward location in GCP to this spot... have the Merrill Fountain relocated here to anchor the north end... and the Polish Bicentennial gift to Detroit.. the Thaddeus Kosciouszko equestrian statue... anchor the southern terminus of this small park.... with flower beds surrounding all 3...

...and something that commemorates Hastings Street.

[Honky Tonk]

What kind of cash flow is the 8-lane open automotive sewer generating?

These fears of people suddenly avoiding downtown, loss of business, or folks getting lost because of the loss of a short stretch of overbuilt roadway are unfounded. But then again, this is why studies are conducted--to get beyond hyperbole and scare tactics, and find FACTS.

The City of Seattle conducted a similar study in the past, regarding possible removal of the Alaskan Way Viaduct. This is what they found:

1. Reduction of roadway capacity reduces the number of auto trips [[So much for that "congestion" argument.).

2. "Spillover" traffic can be absorbed. [[In other words, traffic would be *distributed* throughout downtown, instead of funneling it all AWAY from downtown at one point.)

3. Freeway removal does not require a major shift to transit [[There goes the "We're not Chicago" argument.).

4. Freeway removal has a catalytic effect.

...and more.

Six case studies [[of actual REALITY, and not fanatical, made-up overemotional hyperbole) presented here:

http://www.seattle.gov/transportatio...%20removal.pdf

Try going to an event @ Cobo Hall, Ford Field, Comerica Park, Ren-Cen, Music Hall, Hart Plaza, Millender Hotel, Tunnel to Cananda, Geektown Casino, Joe Louis Arena, and maybe you'll have answered your own question. All you'll have to do is stop and think about it for a minute. As bad and "uncool" as an "automobile sewer" is, that IS how people get to those destinations, spend their monies, and keep the lights on, as few as they may be. We're not talking about a 100 people showing up for dinner @ a restaurant.

[Eber Brock Ward]

Try going to an event @ Cobo Hall, Ford Field, Comerica Park, Ren-Cen, Music Hall, Hart Plaza, Millender Hotel, Tunnel to Cananda, Geektown Casino, Joe Louis Arena, and maybe you'll have answered your own question. All you'll have to do is stop and think about it for a minute. As bad and "uncool" as an "automobile sewer" is, that IS how people get to those destinations, spend their monies, and keep the lights on, as few as they may be. We're not talking about a 100 people showing up for dinner @ a restaurant.

If you are driving from Brighton, to use an earlier example, and already taking 50 minutes to get there, 10 minutes in traffic on 375 to exit at Lafayette, 15 minutes to park and go to the game, 3 hours at a game, 15 minutes to get to your car, and 50 minutes to get home, it is already about a 5-1/2 hour, or pretty much all day thing.

Dealing with an extra 5-10 minutes of traffic isn't going to sway anyone but the most traffic-anxiety ridden people away from attending events..

[ghettopalmetto]

Try going to an event @ Cobo Hall, Ford Field, Comerica Park, Ren-Cen, Music Hall, Hart Plaza, Millender Hotel, Tunnel to Cananda, Geektown Casino, Joe Louis Arena, and maybe you'll have answered your own question. All you'll have to do is stop and think about it for a minute. As bad and "uncool" as an "automobile sewer" is, that IS how people get to those destinations, spend their monies, and keep the lights on, as few as they may be. We're not talking about a 100 people showing up for dinner @ a restaurant.

People might have to drive on surface streets for a few blocks, just like in a real city. The horrors!

The empirical evidence suggests that there would be LESS congestion after removal of I-375, simply because that volume of traffic would distribute throughout the street grid, as opposed to the current condition, where it is almost all funnelled to the same point. It's the opposite phenomenon of induced demand.

[Honky Tonk]

If you are driving from Brighton, to use an earlier example, and already taking 50 minutes to get there, 10 minutes in traffic on 375 to exit at Lafayette, 15 minutes to park and go to the game, 3 hours at a game, 15 minutes to get to your car, and 50 minutes to get home, it is already about a 5-1/2 hour, or pretty much all day thing.

Dealing with an extra 5-10 minutes of traffic isn't going to sway anyone but the most traffic-anxiety ridden people away from attending events..

Well then have @ it. What's another billion on a crap shoot given MIs thriving economy. Once people see bike paths and coffee shops, they'll all move back to the City, and the tax $s will come pouring in. After all, a Boulevard is what people want.

[Detroitnerd]

...and something that commemorates Hastings Street.

In a way, there already are some monuments commemorating Hastings Street. Between Mack and Wilkins on the southbound service drive, there are about eight fire hydrants. They never removed them, and you can use them to figure out where the various hotels and bars were. You might say it's the best fire-protected service drive in America.

[Eber Brock Ward]

In a way, there already are some monuments commemorating Hastings Street. Between Mack and Wilkins on the southbound service drive, there are about eight fire hydrants. They never removed them, and you can use them to figure out where the various hotels and bars were. You might say it's the best fire-protected service drive in America.

Cool. I love little historical things like that. Thanks.

[marshamusic]

In a way, there already are some monuments commemorating Hastings Street. Between Mack and Wilkins on the southbound service drive, there are about eight fire hydrants. They never removed them, and you can use them to figure out where the various hotels and bars were. You might say it's the best fire-protected service drive in America.

Statues, bells, fountains as memorials in Detroit.

Hastings street and its community commemorated by fire hydrants.

Priceless.

[Gistok]

Sorry, I still don't get it. If closing this freeway is going to kill off some institutions that don't benefit residents of Detroit then close the freeway let that shit die.

Well then you might as well close all the theatres and sports venues...

Symphony? Opera? Might as well add them to your "to die" list....

[iheartthed]

Well then you might as well close all the theatres and sports venues...

Symphony? Opera? Might as well add them to your "to die" list....

I don't live in the city of Detroit so it's not my call anymore than it is yours or Bham's... However, I'm just pointing out the flaw in the "OMG, the suburbanites won't come anymore!" line of thought. That hasn't supported the city thus far and it won't in the future. So when talking about what to do with the highway maybe the focus should be on what will actually make it better for the people who live there.

[Gistok]

I don't live in the city of Detroit so it's not my call anymore than it is yours or Bham's... However, I'm just pointing out the flaw in the "OMG, the suburbanites won't come anymore!" line of thought. That hasn't supported the city thus far and it won't in the future. So when talking about what to do with the highway maybe the focus should be on what will actually make it better for the people who live there.

We just got thru arguing pointlessly over this whole short roadway a few months ago... now we're doing it again... It's really an effort in futility, since there's so little money leftover to do it anyway.

I just drove past the rebuild of the Van Dyke bridge over I-94... which is being rebuilt in a way to be compatible for the future widening of I-94 to 4 lanes. I was shocked at the width of the clear span. As other bridges over I-94 are being replaced, they too will be widened. Any way we look at the removal of I-375... whether it's needed or not... the widening of I-94 will be a higher priority... also... whether it's needed or not...

[subsidized]

I travel downtown at least three times a week and, maybe it's because I'm from the west side but I have only been on 375 once in my life. I don't even use the Lodge unless I'm going to the Joe. I either take Michigan Ave all the way down or take 94 to the John R/Woodward exit and NEVER has it taken more than ten minutes to get to Jefferson from 94. That includes gamedays and rush hour. I've heard of backups on 375 for tiger games and always thought it was stupid to bypass the rest of the city on the way to the ballpark.

[Detroitnerd]

the widening of I-94 will be a higher priority... also... whether it's needed or not...

It is so not-needed. And MDOT is just stuck in the effing STONE AGE.

Seriously? Spending $1.8 billion and a few decades to widen six miles of roadway? Who knows how much gas will cost in that far-off future when this boondoggle is completed?

[Jason]

If they could they would probably spend it on other stuff, but iirc, the I-94 stuff is federal money that's already been allocated for it. So they either spend it or they loose it.

[RickBeall]

The Man is willing to do anything to crush the hippie enclave on 4th street. [spoken in a hoarse voice followed by a sharp exhalation of air]

[RickBeall]

Originally Posted by Gistok >>lol.... OK... I'll bite!

>>I would add to a capped park... a meandering bike path... and the addition of 3 [[currently) oddly located monuments re-planted here... the Millenium [[Cow) Bell moved from an awkward location in GCP to this spot... have the Merrill Fountain relocated here to anchor the north end... and the Polish Bicentennial gift to Detroit.. the Thaddeus Kosciouszko equestrian statue... anchor the southern terminus of this small park.... with flower beds surrounding all 3...

...and something that commemorates Hastings Street.

I see a statue commemorating Joe's Record shop and a park bench, and across the sidewalk there would be a statue of John Lee Hooker. There would also we stones situated around that you could sit on. It would be natural for blues fans to go there, pull out their harmonica and jam a little bit. Maybe walk in with their guitar. It would be their way of sharing or feeling the spirit of John Lee Hooker in the back of the record shop. I think Joe's Record Shop would be the best way to remember Hastings Street because, all else fades away but Joe Von Battle's records spin on. A few feet further you could see the statue for Rev. Franklin and Aretha Franklin. It would be something for the whole black community, sanctified or not, and for everyone who loves music. Give a sermon, or play the blues. There would be a front and back to Joe's Record shop, church in front, blues in back, Joe at the recording machine in the middle, cigarette dangling from his mouth.

[Scottathew]

Nice Idea... but St. Antoine CANNOT be more than a 2 lane roadway... it's just not wide enough. And as much as I dislike the "campus" space of Blue Cross... I have a feeling Blue Cross would like a 3 lane roadway thru their green space even less.

It's already three lanes: http://goo.gl/maps/7IxQI

It would be tight though...

And yes, BCBSM wouldn't like me at all!

[marshamusic]

Originally Posted by Gistok >>lol.... OK... I'll bite!

>>I would add to a capped park... a meandering bike path... and the addition of 3 [[currently) oddly located monuments re-planted here... the Millenium [[Cow) Bell moved from an awkward location in GCP to this spot... have the Merrill Fountain relocated here to anchor the north end... and the Polish Bicentennial gift to Detroit.. the Thaddeus Kosciouszko equestrian statue... anchor the southern terminus of this small park.... with flower beds surrounding all 3...




I see a statue commemorating Joe's Record shop and a park bench, and across the sidewalk there would be a statue of John Lee Hooker. There would also we stones situated around that you could sit on. It would be natural for blues fans to go there, pull out their harmonica and jam a little bit. Maybe walk in with their guitar. It would be their way of sharing or feeling the spirit of John Lee Hooker in the back of the record shop. I think Joe's Record Shop would be the best way to remember Hastings Street because, all else fades away but Joe Von Battle's records spin on. A few feet further you could see the statue for Rev. Franklin and Aretha Franklin. It would be something for the whole black community, sanctified or not, and for everyone who loves music. Give a sermon, or play the blues. There would be a front and back to Joe's Record shop, church in front, blues in back, Joe at the recording machine in the middle, cigarette dangling from his mouth.

Aw, Bless Your Heart!

[marshamusic]

In a way, there already are some monuments commemorating Hastings Street. Between Mack and Wilkins on the southbound service drive, there are about eight fire hydrants. They never removed them, and you can use them to figure out where the various hotels and bars were. You might say it's the best fire-protected service drive in America.

....btw, I spent a long day filming for the one woman show I did last week; as it started with a video montage on Black Bottom/Hastings.

So in addition to the narration/voice-over I spent a morning on the 75 service drive at Mack, as we were showing the exact spot where my father's record business once stood. The camera pointed north so that behind me one could see the spire of St. Johosphat, just like in the pics of John Lee Hooker [[and my mother, father and others).

I mention this because I saw all of those fireplugs, incongruously still there, bereft of their former neighborhood.

Hastings was not as wide as the entire freeway across; it would have been the western service drive.Rick Bealls comparison to Jos. Campau is spot on [[mostly because it's one of the only surviving retail strips from the old days.

The stores on Hastings would have had their east side fronts facing west, where the service drive is now, and their footprint would have gone back to what is now about the middle of the freeway. This varies where you are, since closer to the Jefferson/the river Hastings ran, I think, east of where the freeway is now.

[royce]

Before we go too crazy and spend the huge amount of money to rip up and remove I-375 completely, they should at least just fix the terminus at Jefferson.

I think everyone agrees there is some value in the volume of traffic moved on the I-375 corridor down to Jefferson, regardless of its format.

I think even if they just ripped-up the Jefferson Ave interchange and reconfigured the flow of traffic in the area, they could do a lot to eliminate that huge wasted space.

Having an at-grade intersection, and a way to move traffic to the Ren Cen/GM parking lots would accomplish much of what the I-375 interchange does today. A lot of people have to go and make a turn-around on Jefferson anyways, and when leaving downtown has to use the on-ramp north of Congress.

I agree with most of your sentiments here, DTWflyer. The main reason I want to get rid of the I-375 spur has to do with making Jefferson Avenue more pedestrian friendly in front of UD Mercy between St. Antoine and the freeway. Regarding the possible boulevarding of the I-375 spur, I don't see it happening the way that it's being considered. First, there is no possible way to end the freeway at Gratiot. Cars exiting from the Fisher's eastbound lanes could not come up a new ramp to Gratiot safely, mainly because the traffic would have to stop at a Gratiot light creating a huge back up. The safest exit would have to be south of Gratiot. Now that could be the Monroe exit, the Lafayette exit, or the Larned/East Jefferson exit. For me the best spot to end the freeway heading south is at the Larned/East Jefferson exit.

[DTWflyer]

The only time there is really any sort of traffic at the Jefferson/I-375 terminous is during a highly concentrated period during the morning and evening rush hour.

However, most of the flows to/from the major parking lots is rather round-about and really doesn't take advantage of the high-speed/high capacity terminous of I-375 on to Jefferson.

A lot of the downtown traffic uses the other on/off ramps from I-375. The majority of Ren-Cen parking lots are accesses off of St. Antoine or Rivard and when using that you still have to out and wait at a traffic signal on Jefferson to get on the northbound service drive and then use the Larnard on-ramp.

[jtf1972]

How's this for a plan. Suburban communities can dictate what is best for Detroit and in turn Detroit gets to tell the suburbs how to operate. [[Hey Birmingham, get ready for the largest homeless shelter in the area and a highway plowing right through the middle of whatever neighborhood you live in!)