I-375 as a boulevard? It's not just us talking about it anymore.

[Shollin]

I used to live within a block of 94. In Harper Woods the 94 service drive [[Harper) is lined with businesses.

[Shollin]

Of Detroit's 700k population, 154,000 live and work in Detroit. Lets not sugar coat this and say hundreds of thousands.

[Gistok]

I have never said or even implied any of this. Where have I opined on the "entire point of a city"?
Downtown and Midtown are kept alive by suburban dollars. No suburbia means no DSO, DIA, Fox, Opera, DAC, Comerica, Ford, JLA, Gem, State, Music Hall, etc. In all of these venues, I bet that city residents comprise a tiny proportion of the patronage. Same goes for the vast majority of downtown restaurants. So if you want a healthy downtown/midtown, better keep Betty from Brighton as a visitor. Otherwise, downtown will look like everywhere else in Detroit [[you know, all the places where Betty from Brighton doesn't visit).

Absolutely agree on this... especially true for the docents [[ushers, etc)... if it weren't for the volunteers, mostly suburbanites, who volunteer to drive their cars down to the venues and work for free... these places could not afford to be open...

The one place that suburbanites generally shun [[for whatever reason)... is the Charles Wright African American Museum... and its' attendance is abysmal, and funding is always in short supply... without city donations.

[Gistok]

Let me get this straight. The end of I-375, at Jefferson, handles 15,000 vehicles a day. That's less than some 4-lane roads. And we're worried about *congestion* if it's demolished???

At what point does Detroit prioritize the quality of its urban streetscape ahead of traffic counts? How much more money do the state and federal governments sink into maintaining this underused boondoggle of a freeway?

Why are you just looking at the terminus end of I-375 counts?? That's where it exits the freeway [[only 2 lanes) to a traffic light...

If you want an accurate count... include the folks who pass thru the Fisher Freeway interchange... and get off the exists at 1) Madison, 2) Lafayette, 3) Larned, and 4) East Jefferson... before the freeway ends at West Jefferson.

By the time the freeway ends with those 15K... it has already bypassed much of downtown.

I-375 goes from 4 to 2 lanes during this transition...

[mwilbert]

I have never said or even implied any of this. Where have I opined on the "entire point of a city"?
Downtown and Midtown are kept alive by suburban dollars. No suburbia means no DSO, DIA, Fox, Opera, DAC, Comerica, Ford, JLA, Gem, State, Music Hall, etc. In all of these venues, I bet that city residents comprise a tiny proportion of the patronage. Same goes for the vast majority of downtown restaurants. So if you want a healthy downtown/midtown, better keep Betty from Brighton as a visitor. Otherwise, downtown will look like everywhere else in Detroit [[you know, all the places where Betty from Brighton doesn't visit).

I agree that we want people coming into the city, but which of the places you mention would be significantly harder to get to if the southern spur of I-375 didn't exist? I don't think anyone is suggesting getting rid of all the freeways that make it simple to get in and out of Detroit.

[Shollin]

I agree that we want people coming into the city, but which of the places you mention would be significantly harder to get to if the southern spur of I-375 didn't exist? I don't think anyone is suggesting getting rid of all the freeways that make it simple to get in and out of Detroit.

Greektown Casino, Comerica, Ford Field, Fox, Cobo Hall, even the Compuware building

[Gistok]

Greektown Casino, Comerica, Ford Field, Fox, Cobo Hall, even the Compuware building

And Hart Plaza, RenCen, Ford Field, Brewery Park and the Theatre District... also all points along East Jefferson... where all the old houses and office campuses house additional thousands of people...

[ghettopalmetto]

I think that this study is even being considered is a wholesale change from 15 years ago [[when MDOT was trying to extend I-375 right to the front doors of the proposed riverfront casinos). This is indicative of a change in mindset. Perhaps MDOT has finally realized they can't afford to maintain all of their overbuilt infrastructure?

In either event, I think the idea is that you can't proceed with "business as usual" and expect things to change for the better.

I find it hilarious [[in a sad way) that some think I-375 is so vital to the economic health of the region. In any city, the land adjacent to the freeways is invariably depressed and underdeveloped. In my head, I'm picturing the wasteland of empty lots and derelict properties along the I-696 Vine Street Expressway in Philadelphia, contrasted with the vibrant Center City just a few blocks to the south.

[Jason]

Sorry, but I don't buy the "supposedly" depressed property tax claim. My parents lived 4 blocks from I-94 for 50 years [[between Cadiueux and Moross). And yes the freeway was completed thru their area shortly before 1960.

Let me give you a little scenario on their property value over that period This says volumes more than anybody's cute little theories to the contrary...

1960 - 15K
1970 - 25K
1980 - 30K
1990 - 40K
2000 - 95K
2010 - 15K

I don't know how any of you can still say that the freeways depressed propety values....

This doesn't take into account inflation. The only years on that chart when the value increase kept up with inflation was from 1960 to 1970. And also from 1990 to 2000 although that year looks suspicious. To have maintained its value since 1960 the house today would have to be worth about 120k. Although that's not really related to the question, because the house has always been next to a freeway and because most houses today haven't maintained their value.

Anyway, it's not really an issue up to our own anecdotal debates, it's been studied plenty of times. Accessibility improvements increase the value but everything else about the freeway lowers the value of the properties nearby, and the bad outweighs the good.

This means that within a given area, you want to minimize freeways, while still allowing for fast travel times. And 375 is so inconsequential that it can easily be removed.

The only question, imo, is whether the bureaucracy can manage to spend more money upfront in order to save money in the long run, or if they'll get themselves stuck doing expensive and unnecessary maintenance on it for decades to come.

[Jason]

And Hart Plaza, RenCen, Ford Field, Brewery Park and the Theatre District... also all points along East Jefferson... where all the old houses and office campuses house additional thousands of people...

None of these places are affected.

Right now a driver drives south on the freeway, and either gets off at madison, monroe, or larned, or they get dumped onto jefferson. Then they drive on the service drive and do whatever turns are neccessary to get to where they're going.

With the freeway removed, they'll be dumped onto the new avenue, and instead of getting off at an exit, they'll simply turn directly onto the road they want to go to.

The new road will go a little slower, but since you're going such a short distance it will barely effect the overall travel time.

That chunk of freeway is essentially a limited access local road.

[DetroitPlanner]

Show us all a case -- any case -- where a limited-access urban roadway was boulevarded and the claims of "gridlock" materialized and persisted.

Here is the rub. If the EIS showed no change in congestion the proposed roadway change would never happen. The DOT would never approve it and the public would be in an uproar due to the huge cost. Having such a small sample and assuming that a project will be a success without studying it first is a recipie for disaster.

[Scottathew]

If Ficano wasn't building his jail I would say do the following:

I-375 it put at-grade south of Gratiot [[but still goes under Gratiot)
SB I-375 would bisect the jail site, creating new locations for businesses.
SB I-375 would align with St. Aubin [[and would now go SB, not NB as St. Aubin does today).
SB I-375 follows St. Aubin path all the way to Jefferson.

NB I-375 is a three lane road that goes from Jefferson until it submerges and becomes a freeway as it goes under Gratiot. NB I-375 would be as SW as possible at the current location of the SB service drive.

NB service drive is demolished and all buildings are now accessed from Rivard. A green space is created in the space of the former NB service drive and NB I-375 lanes.

Here's a rough sketch of what we could have done without Ficano's jail:

[Spartan]

Greektown Casino, Comerica, Ford Field, Fox, Cobo Hall, even the Compuware building

I wouldn't take 375 to any of those aside from Greektown, and maybe Cobo [[but 75 to the Lodge would work too).

That being said, I don't agree with removing 375, I don't see much benefit for it. Creating a boulevard doesn't seem all that likely to spur development, and there is plenty of land available already within the "loop." At the same time, I don't really see too many negatives to it either.

[Gistok]

If Ficano wasn't building his jail I would say do the following:

I-375 it put at-grade south of Gratiot [[but still goes under Gratiot)
SB I-375 would bisect the jail site, creating new locations for businesses.
SB I-375 would align with St. Aubin [[and would now go SB, not NB as St. Aubin does today).
SB I-375 follows St. Aubin path all the way to Jefferson.

NB I-375 is a three lane road that goes from Jefferson until it submerges and becomes a freeway as it goes under Gratiot. NB I-375 would be as SW as possible at the current location of the SB service drive.

NB service drive is demolished and all buildings are now accessed from Rivard. A green space is created in the space of the former NB service drive and NB I-375 lanes.

Here's a rough sketch of what we could have done without Ficano's jail:

Nice Idea... but St. Antoine CANNOT be more than a 2 lane roadway... it's just not wide enough. And as much as I dislike the "campus" space of Blue Cross... I have a feeling Blue Cross would like a 3 lane roadway thru their green space even less.

[RickBeall]

If we were in Pontiac and you were talking about daylighting the Clinton River under Wide Track Drive then I would be all for it. But "daylighting" an endless flow of cars is pointless. The road would be too wide to create any urban compression. It would be better to do what some have advised and cover over more of it. Make some nice bike trails that go over the expressway. Make some green. That would be sweet.

On Facebook, I saw some hoping that raising the expressway would be like re-creating old Hastings Street, but the street would be too wide. If you want to see old Hastings Street, the closest is Joseph Campau in Hamtramck; but unfortunately without all the cool old blues bars.

[marshamusic]

If we were in Pontiac and you were talking about daylighting the Clinton River under Wide Track Drive then I would be all for it. But "daylighting" an endless flow of cars is pointless. The road would be too wide to create any urban compression. It would be better to do what some have advised and cover over more of it. Make some nice bike trails that go over the expressway. Make some green. That would be sweet.

On Facebook, I saw some hoping that raising the expressway would be like re-creating old Hastings Street, but the street would be too wide. If you want to see old Hastings Street, the closest is Joseph Campau in Hamtramck. But unfortunately, without all the cool old blues bars.

What he said......

[Jason]

Earlier someone said that near where 375 hits Jefferson it carries 14,000 cars a day.

Fort Street just east of where it's on top of the lodge carries about 14,000 cars a day too. Michigan Avenue just west of 3rd carries about 27,000 per day. Woodward between Congress and Larned is about 11,000.

So I don't think you'd need a massive avenue to handle the traffic.

[RickBeall]

It would be better to count the cars at "the mouth" before they start funneling off onto various side streets. It seems like the road would have to be very wide and then narrow down ... but it still seems like change for the sake of change.

Ha ha, I want bike paths over the underground river of cars. Some quaint street lights, some benches, flower gardens, and a level path for the bike to roll over the expressway. That would make for a very pedestrian, bike friendly city.

I would let Gistok plan the whole thing.

[Gistok]

Ha ha, I want bike paths over the underground river of cars. Some quaint street lights, some benches, flower gardens, and a level path for the bike to roll over the expressway. That would make for a very pedestrian, bike friendly city.

I would let Gistok plan the whole thing.

lol.... OK... I'll bite!

I would add to a capped park... a meandering bike path... and the addition of 3 [[currently) oddly located monuments re-planted here... the Millenium [[Cow) Bell moved from an awkward location in GCP to this spot... have the Merrill Fountain relocated here to anchor the north end... and the Polish Bicentennial gift to Detroit.. the Thaddeus Kosciouszko equestrian statue... anchor the southern terminus of this small park.... with flower beds surrounding all 3...

[canuck]

You know, this is another one of those threads that gathers moss...

[DTWflyer]

Before we go too crazy and spend the huge amount of money to rip up and remove I-375 completely, they should at least just fix the terminus at Jefferson.

I think everyone agrees there is some value in the volume of traffic moved on the I-375 corridor down to Jefferson, regardless of its format.

I think even if they just ripped-up the Jefferson Ave interchange and reconfigured the flow of traffic in the area, they could do a lot to eliminate that huge wasted space.

Having an at-grade intersection, and a way to move traffic to the Ren Cen/GM parking lots would accomplish much of what the I-375 interchange does today. A lot of people have to go and make a turn-around on Jefferson anyways, and when leaving downtown has to use the on-ramp north of Congress.

[iheartthed]

I have never said or even implied any of this. Where have I opined on the "entire point of a city"?
Downtown and Midtown are kept alive by suburban dollars. No suburbia means no DSO, DIA, Fox, Opera, DAC, Comerica, Ford, JLA, Gem, State, Music Hall, etc. In all of these venues, I bet that city residents comprise a tiny proportion of the patronage. Same goes for the vast majority of downtown restaurants. So if you want a healthy downtown/midtown, better keep Betty from Brighton as a visitor. Otherwise, downtown will look like everywhere else in Detroit [[you know, all the places where Betty from Brighton doesn't visit).

Sorry, I still don't get it. If closing this freeway is going to kill off some institutions that don't benefit residents of Detroit then close the freeway let that shit die.

[canuck]

This is the US. Europe is irrelevant. Europe also has socialized health care and restrictive gun laws.

Sounds like hell on earth, they probably have to deal with poorer fast food choices, too many transit options and outdated architecture.
Europeans, You're a pain in the...

[Honky Tonk]

Sorry, I still don't get it. If closing this freeway is going to kill off some institutions that don't benefit residents of Detroit then close the freeway let that shit die.

Then you never will. Maybe they can fill in the freeway and open a series of bicycling bars and coffee houses. That'll keep the cash flow coming.

[chicagoforlife]

I've never been a fan of urban expressways and have commented on Detroit's expressway system several times. I for one don't like how close I-75 comes to downtown, I don't like either the Lodge or I-375. Downtown Detroit is bordered by expressways on three sides and a river on the other and that just takes away from areas that could be developed.

Remove I-375, the Lodge south of I-75 and maybe some of it a little north of it to like say Grand River Avenue or MLK Blvd.

Then make I-75 go into a tunnel between Brush and Grand River, also not in this area but certainly in Detroit make I-94 run through a tunnel between either 2nd or 3rd and Beaubien.

I flatout can't stand expressways in an urban area.