I-375 as a boulevard? It's not just us talking about it anymore.

[Lowell]

If I am going to spend money I and the public don't have, I favor covering it from Grand River to Brush - much like 696 is in Oak Park. It would be the best of both worlds.

[antongast]

Detroit should do everything in its power to facilitate the movement of cars into its core. After all, if you restrict cars into the core, visitors aren't going to be riding their bikes or taking the subway from Brighton. A healthy core means an accessible core.

I seriously don't give a flying fuck if anyone from Brighton ever comes to Detroit or not. I just don't. If they don't want to come here, they shouldn't.

[ghettopalmetto]

Let me get this straight. The end of I-375, at Jefferson, handles 15,000 vehicles a day. That's less than some 4-lane roads. And we're worried about *congestion* if it's demolished???

At what point does Detroit prioritize the quality of its urban streetscape ahead of traffic counts? How much more money do the state and federal governments sink into maintaining this underused boondoggle of a freeway?

[ghettopalmetto]

Detroit should do everything in its power to facilitate the movement of cars into its core. After all, if you restrict cars into the core, visitors aren't going to be riding their bikes or taking the subway from Brighton. A healthy core means an accessible core.

That's been the de facto policy of MDOT for at least the past 60 years. How has that worked out? Would you say Detroit is better off than its peers because of it?

Move people, not cars.

[Shollin]

That's been the de facto policy of MDOT for at least the past 60 years. How has that worked out? Would you say Detroit is better off than its peers because of it?

Move people, not cars.

Every single one of Detroit's peers has freeways leading in, out and around downtown. Only Detroit uses it as an excuse and self destructed.

[Bham1982]

That's been the de facto policy of MDOT for at least the past 60 years. How has that worked out? Would you say Detroit is better off than its peers because of it?

Move people, not cars.

People in Michigan move about in cars. They aren't biking from Brighton. No Metro to Macomb Township. So no cars, no people.

[antongast]

People in Michigan move about in cars. They aren't biking from Brighton. No Metro to Macomb Township. So no cars, no people.

You realize that people actually live in Detroit, right?

[antongast]

Every single one of Detroit's peers has freeways leading in, out and around downtown. Only Detroit uses it as an excuse and self destructed.

European cities generally don't have them, and get along perfectly well without them. American cities are increasingly trying to get rid of them. Downtown freeways aren't the only thing wrong with Detroit, but I don't think they're a net asset, and they're indisputably unnecessary.

[Bham1982]

You realize that people actually live in Detroit, right?

I thought we were talking about downtown. You think city residents sustain Comerica, Ford Field, DIA, DSO, fancy restaurants, etc.? I would be surprised if 5% of DSO patronage were from city residents.

[antongast]

I thought we were talking about downtown. You think city residents sustain Comerica, Ford Field, DIA, DSO, fancy restaurants, etc.? I would be surprised if 5% of DSO patronage were from city residents.

If you're taking 375 to the DIA or DSO, you're hopelessly lost. Maybe if there weren't freeways taking you right up to the front door of every place you wanted to go in the city, you'd actually learn your way around.

[Bham1982]

If you're taking 375 to the DIA or DSO, you're hopelessly lost. Maybe if there weren't freeways taking you right up to the front door of every place you wanted to go in the city, you'd actually learn your way around.

Ok, then strictly downtown, which significant cultural, sports, or civic entity is primarily [[or even significantly) sustained by city residents?

[antongast]

Ok, then strictly downtown, which significant cultural, sports, or civic entity is primarily [[or even significantly) sustained by city residents?

Hart Plaza.

[Bham1982]

Hart Plaza.

Why? How often are there events at Hart Plaza, and how many of them are primarily attended by city residents?

[Zug]

If I am going to spend money I and the public don't have, I favor covering it from Grand River to Brush - much like 696 is in Oak Park. It would be the best of both worlds.

I also have this hope.

I think the city could benefit from a converted 375 too. Honestly, the regular traffic on a surface street could be more beneficial than getting people to Jefferson faster. I do see some of the benefits of keeping the freeway...but I don't think it's "needed." It's more of a luxury for commuters.

[Shollin]

European cities generally don't have them, and get along perfectly well without them. American cities are increasingly trying to get rid of them. Downtown freeways aren't the only thing wrong with Detroit, but I don't think they're a net asset, and they're indisputably unnecessary.

Your rebuttal is Europe? Really?

[ghettopalmetto]

See, this is what I don't understand about Bham, and people like him. Young Padawan will put down the City of Detroit and its residents, point out all the flaws, and think that the entire point of a city is to house entertainment venues where he can piss away his money with his nose turned in the air.

Yet, attempt to make one TINY stitch of progress to improve the situation, and he'll bemoan it every step of the way [[while crying that his suburban fiefdom needs more tax-funded roads, schools, police, etc, because that's where "the people" live). How many people LIVE and WORK in Detroit, vis-a-vis drive in from Brighton, huh?

So, Bham, I ask you... What is wrong with MDOT studying a reasonable proposition, that just may save money for the state in the long-run, and perhaps make one small part of Detroit less of an automotive sewer? Are you afraid of facts and objective data?

But, I suppose it's easier to maintain the charade that "everyone" wants to live in vinyl Potemkin villages, and make excuses that "Detroit isn't Chicago".

[Jason]

I don't think it matters where people are coming from. There are freeways coming from all directions to get you downtown. The section of freeway being talked about moves you around within downtown.

All this change would mean is that someone would spend the last .5 miles of their car trip on a surface street instead of the freeway.

It would also mean a more pedestrian friendly environment, more land for development [[or honestly even just parking lots would be more worthwhile), and in the long term it would be much cheaper because of how expensive freeways are to maintain.

[ghettopalmetto]

Your rebuttal is Europe? Really?

I take it you don't have a passport.

[Shollin]

I take it you don't have a passport.

This is the US. Europe is irrelevant. Europe also has socialized health care and restrictive gun laws.

[ghettopalmetto]

This is the US. Europe is irrelevant. Europe also has socialized health care and restrictive gun laws.

On the whole, Europeans are better educated too, but that's beside the point.

You have all the answers and aren't interested in learning anything that might challenge your limited ideas. Got it.

If that's the case, maybe you can explain why cities like Gdansk and Warszawa--which were bombed to smithereens during World War II--are more intact than Detroit?

[Shollin]

On the whole, Europeans are better educated too, but that's beside the point.

You have all the answers and aren't interested in learning anything that might challenge your limited ideas. Got it.

If that's the case, maybe you can explain why cities like Gdansk and Warszawa--which were bombed to smithereens during World War II--are more intact than Detroit?

What Europeans want and what Americans want are two different things. These are two different cultures and has no relevance on Detroit or anywhere in the US. Americans want their cars. Even in New York, less than half of the city's workforce uses public transit. 2 of the top 10 slowest growing metro regions are New York and Chicago which have the 2 largest transit systems. The fastest growing areas such as Houston, Dallas, and San Antonio, are anything but transit oriented.

[Honky Tonk]

On the whole, Europeans are better educated too, but that's beside the point.

You have all the answers and aren't interested in learning anything that might challenge your limited ideas. Got it.

If that's the case, maybe you can explain why cities like Gdansk and Warszawa--which were bombed to smithereens during World War II--are more intact than Detroit?

I think know that one. Because people there give a damn, that's why. Because life, history, pride, have meaning and value.

[Bham1982]

See, this is what I don't understand about Bham, and people like him. Young Padawan will put down the City of Detroit and its residents, point out all the flaws, and think that the entire point of a city is to house entertainment venues where he can piss away his money with his nose turned in the air.

I have never said or even implied any of this. Where have I opined on the "entire point of a city"?

Yet, attempt to make one TINY stitch of progress to improve the situation, and he'll bemoan it every step of the way [[while crying that his suburban fiefdom needs more tax-funded roads, schools, police, etc, because that's where "the people" live). How many people LIVE and WORK in Detroit, vis-a-vis drive in from Brighton, huh?

Downtown and Midtown are kept alive by suburban dollars. No suburbia means no DSO, DIA, Fox, Opera, DAC, Comerica, Ford, JLA, Gem, State, Music Hall, etc. In all of these venues, I bet that city residents comprise a tiny proportion of the patronage. Same goes for the vast majority of downtown restaurants. So if you want a healthy downtown/midtown, better keep Betty from Brighton as a visitor. Otherwise, downtown will look like everywhere else in Detroit [[you know, all the places where Betty from Brighton doesn't visit).

[Gistok]

Sorry, but I don't buy the "supposedly" depressed property tax claim. My parents lived 4 blocks from I-94 for 50 years [[between Cadiueux and Moross). And yes the freeway was completed thru their area shortly before 1960.

Let me give you a little scenario on their property value over that period This says volumes more than anybody's cute little theories to the contrary...

1960 - 15K
1970 - 25K
1980 - 30K
1990 - 40K
2000 - 95K
2010 - 15K

I don't know how any of you can still say that the freeways depressed propety values....

And all the talk about comparing American cities to Europe is also a bunch of crap... I was born in Europe... and yes have a passport and been back about 20 times... Europeans pay nearly 1/2 of their income to taxes... and in doing so... European countries-states-provinces-cities... pay to have their cities maintained.. pay to have historic preservation done... pay to have infrastructure improvements [[that would put America to shame).. and pay to take care of the indigent poor.

America doesn't have any of that with any degree of respectibility.... so just because their freeways don't go into towns is irrelevent as to why European cities are better maintained.

[ghettopalmetto]

I have never said or even implied any of this. Where have I opined on the "entire point of a city"?
Downtown and Midtown are kept alive by suburban dollars. No suburbia means no DSO, DIA, Fox, Opera, DAC, Comerica, Ford, JLA, Gem, State, Music Hall, etc. In all of these venues, I bet that city residents comprise a tiny proportion of the patronage. Same goes for the vast majority of downtown restaurants. So if you want a healthy downtown/midtown, better keep Betty from Brighton as a visitor. Otherwise, downtown will look like everywhere else in Detroit [[you know, all the places where Betty from Brighton doesn't visit).

It's a bit self-righteous to hold the City of Detroit hostage for your own selfish reasons, isn't it? The hundreds of thousands of people who live and work in the city--they don't matter to you, do they?

Sorry, man. The folks who live in Brighton CHOSE to live in Brighton. They have their own city government. Detroit needs to work for Detroiters first.

You still never responded why you fear MDOT studying removal of this short stretch of freeway. After all, this is the same MDOT that pumped hundreds of millions of dollars into building I-96, I-275, M-14, and U.S. 23 that makes it possible for folks to live in the paradise of Brighton.