I-375 as a boulevard? It's not just us talking about it anymore.

[marshamusic]

I know, I know. It's been talked about to death already, but it's still a good idea and it's not just us Detroit slappys doing the talking anymore.

The state is considering raising a portion of I-375 between Gratiot and Jefferson in hopes of sparking new development. Nothing is official yet as at this point they are just tossing out ideas. Money is tight and officials don't want to spend more than it would cost to repair the road as it sits now. One interesting idea included having the private sector invest in the project, and in return receiving a portion of the newly freed up land to develop.

Read more at Crains: http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...65-a-boulevard

You know, in the recent thread/s about the freeway, I don't remember that the discussion was about "raising" the freeway - that is, having more street level traffic. Shoot, that sounds worse than it is already.

I thought we had talked about a possible closing off of the freeway altogether, south of the Fisher.

Btw, someone in that tread, last month, talked about how desolate - or something like that - the walk is from Lafayette Park across to Downtown. Though many challenged that view, because of course, it isn't exactly empty, I agree, just didn't post it then. I think it's the expanse of freeway that contributes to that feeling.

[subsidized]

You know, in the recent thread/s about the freeway, I don't remember that the discussion was about "raising" the freeway - that is, having more street level traffic. Shoot, that sounds worse than it is already.

I thought we had talked about a possible closing off of the freeway altogether, south of the Fisher.

Btw, someone in that tread, last month, talked about how desolate - or something like that - the walk is from Lafayette Park across to Downtown. Though many challenged that view, because of course, it isn't exactly empty, I agree, just didn't post it then. I think it's the expanse of freeway that contributes to that feeling.

I should clarify that when I said "raising a portion of I-375" what I meant was they plan to eliminate the freeway altogether and replace it with a surface street.

[marshamusic]

I should clarify that when I said "raising a portion of I-375" what I meant was they plan to eliminate the freeway altogether and replace it with a surface street.

Yes, I get what you're saying now, I just hadn't understood that in the previous discussion. But don't you think a surface street would be worse?

[Detroitnerd]

But don't you think a surface street would be worse?

In what way? Auto congestion?

[Bham1982]

Considering that raw land downtown is almost worthless, the relative advantages of returning land to the tax rolls are quite dubious. Heck, it would probably cost the taxpayers money, because whatever would be built would require "taxpayer participation" [[i.e. deep subsidies and assumption of all risk).

[Detroitnerd]

Considering that raw land downtown is almost worthless

Yeah. It's like, "There are totally no delicious chickens in this coop. All there are is this pile of worthless, cost-causing eggs. Who want to be stuck with the electric bill to keep these things warm?"

[marshamusic]

In what way? Auto congestion?

Yeah. Seem like lanes of cars - and often heavy traffic - wouldn't do much to connect Downtown with the east side of the freeway, especially Lafayette Park.

[Wheels]

This would at the very least give Detroit much more room to walk!

[Honky Tonk]

Yeah. Seem like lanes of cars - and often heavy traffic - wouldn't do much to connect Downtown with the east side of the freeway, especially Lafayette Park.

Of course it wouldn't. Not only that, if it takes you even longer to get from the freeway to the Ren-Cen, Cobo, MIllender,Hart, don't you think people will get a bit dissuaded from coming to or doing business in those places? Oh wait, I forgot, they can park 3 miles away, and take the choo-choo in. That'll work great for the weekend siteseers, I'm not so sure if you'e trying to make a meeting.

[Detroitnerd]

A lot of the time, when they change the infrastructure by taking a freeway down and putting in a smaller road, people say that traffic is going to be gridlocked. Surprisingly, when the infrastructure is changed, drivers often find other ways to get where they used to, and the warned-of gridlock doesn't materialize.

As for busy thoroughfares not bridging together two sides of it, we should look at the psychology of walking. If you're at Comerica Park and you want to walk to Lafayette Coney Island, it's 1/2 mile. It's a leisurely walk with plenty to look at and lots of distractions. It will take 10 minutes and fly by. Now how about walking from, say, Greektown to the Thai restaurant by Lafayette Towers? You will walk by the parking lot on Lafayette, over the freeway, along the blind street that hides the townhouses, along a seldom-traveled piece of sidewalk. You will navigate a lot of curb cuts and probably see more cars than people. It will take 10 minutes, but it will feel a lot longer than 10 minutes.

[marshamusic]

A lot of the time, when they change the infrastructure by taking a freeway down and putting in a smaller road, people say that traffic is going to be gridlocked. Surprisingly, when the infrastructure is changed, drivers often find other ways to get where they used to, and the warned-of gridlock doesn't materialize.

As for busy thoroughfares not bridging together two sides of it, we should look at the psychology of walking. If you're at Comerica Park and you want to walk to Lafayette Coney Island, it's 1/2 mile. It's a leisurely walk with plenty to look at and lots of distractions. It will take 10 minutes and fly by. Now how about walking from, say, Greektown to the Thai restaurant by Lafayette Towers? You will walk by the parking lot on Lafayette, over the freeway, along the blind street that hides the townhouses, along a seldom-traveled piece of sidewalk. You will navigate a lot of curb cuts and probably see more cars than people. It will take 10 minutes, but it will feel a lot longer than 10 minutes.

That's exactly what I was trying to say above, about walking. In good weather, I generally walk to work, from LP to downtown. For some reason [[which you've illustrated above) it is such a trudge, until the casino, and really, until Randolph.

[Wesley Mouch]

A lot of the time, when they change the infrastructure by taking a freeway down and putting in a smaller road, people say that traffic is going to be gridlocked. Surprisingly, when the infrastructure is changed, drivers often find other ways to get where they used to, and the warned-of gridlock doesn't materialize.
...snip...

Right you are. Traffic engineers usually have their heads up their nose. But they're engineers. That's to be expected. Other forms of bureaucratic life need to keep them under control. Getting somewhere fast isn't always to goal, as you point out. There's more to life.

For 375 that dead ends -- making it a softer end is so obviously good. You don't want everyone being dumped on Jefferson or to Monroe.

On the other hand, I'm all in favor of improving the I75 up I96, east on I94 run to be six lanes each direction. If you do that, you could close the Fisher as well. We do want people to be able to get through Detroit when that's their goal -- but no reason to do so near downtown.

[DetroitPlanner]

A lot of the time, when they change the infrastructure by taking a freeway down and putting in a smaller road, people say that traffic is going to be gridlocked. Surprisingly, when the infrastructure is changed, drivers often find other ways to get where they used to, and the warned-of gridlock doesn't materialize.

I wonder what you mean by 'a lot of the time'? This has only happened in a few circumstances. I do agree that people will self adjust. Look what happens when they close down a freeway for construction. It is relative chaos for a few days, but then traffic gets back to normal.

The question to be asked is would an at grade roadway operate as well as one not at grade? Well the that would depend on where people are going to and from: the traffic generators, places like the Ren Cen, Blue Cross, Greektown Casino. If these folks actually get better access with more alternative routes, then it could work pretty well in mitigating traffic. It may result in longer commutes for those at the end of the circuit [[RenCen), but a much better flow from say Frank Murphy.

[Detroitnerd]

I wonder what you mean by 'a lot of the time'? This has only happened in a few circumstances. I do agree that people will self adjust. Look what happens when they close down a freeway for construction. It is relative chaos for a few days, but then traffic gets back to normal.

Looking at the cases of the Embarcadero in San Francisco and the West Side Highway in Manhattan, the "gridlock never materialized." We are to the point where several other urban freeways have been boulevarded, and I believe there are enough instances to say "a lot of the time." In fact, I think it's fairly conservative.

Show us all a case -- any case -- where a limited-access urban roadway was boulevarded and the claims of "gridlock" materialized and persisted.

[iheartthed]

Of course it wouldn't. Not only that, if it takes you even longer to get from the freeway to the Ren-Cen, Cobo, MIllender,Hart, don't you think people will get a bit dissuaded from coming to or doing business in those places?

No, I don't. I have yet to see an instance where removing a freeway has killed off a downtown. However, I have seen plenty of examples of the opposite.

[southen]

the current service drives would still be there no? im sure they could design it to keep feeder lanes into those service drives to help alleviate any congestion. as for walking from LP i dont think an extra traffic light is going to deter people from walking or add much time to the walk.

[Detroitnerd]

I think if there's anything we've learned about "easing congestion," it's that it really only increases the throughput of cars. And deters pedestrians.

[marshamusic]

I'm shifting the Overton window here, brah. Shit, let's make it a bike path.

Now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout....

[marshamusic]

Won't putting the cars on the service increase noise levels? That means a LOT to us in Lafayette Park.

[Detroitnerd]

It's interesting to watch a whole generational shift at work. Previous generations wanted to unleash the car in the city. The new consensus is that we should "tame" the car in the city. We'll see how that plays out here ...

[marshamusic]

It's interesting to watch a whole generational shift at work. Previous generations wanted to unleash the car in the city. The new consensus is that we should "tame" the car in the city. We'll see how that plays out here ...

I know, this change in consciousness is really amazing.

[Shollin]

I don't see this shift. All the fastest growing regions in the US are car orientend. I only see it from people who are in declining older cities who want to restore some sort of golden age.

[Detroitnerd]

I don't see this shift. All the fastest growing regions in the US are car orientend. I only see it from people who are in declining older cities who want to restore some sort of golden age.

[Brian1979]

The land dedicated to urban freeways is an open faucet leaking money from the city. Instead of property tax revenue, new businesses, vitality, and population growth, these highways consume land, depress land values, and give nothing back except a marginally shorter car ride for [[usually non-resident) commuters.

[Bham1982]

I think if there's anything we've learned about "easing congestion," it's that it really only increases the throughput of cars. And deters pedestrians.

Detroit should do everything in its power to facilitate the movement of cars into its core. After all, if you restrict cars into the core, visitors aren't going to be riding their bikes or taking the subway from Brighton. A healthy core means an accessible core.