Survey: Camry more American than F-150

[Islandman]

Quote: "What did I do? Moved on in to a position in my industry that is still lucrative and has not been downsized."

Yet. What is your plan when that happens? There are armies of college grads that are having trouble getting a menial job right now, you are aware of that right? What should thousands of people do that did not have a segway afforded to them, and are simply unemployed? You do understand the fundamentals of the concept of "unemployment"? No Jobs available, etc? Not everyone can simply do something else, when there is simply nothing else to do.

Just because you were lucky and found something else in lieu of getting tossed to the curb, don't condemn others for their consequences and somehow make it their own fault.

I wasn't "lucky". I could not find a job in IT for almost 2 years after 9-11 while working in Wall Street.

What did I do? Moved back to Detroit and started going to school for other training, all the while stocking shelves at the local Meijer. Lucky me. I am not saying things are bad, and I have on unemployment many times, but as many have said above, what is happening in the auto industry did not happen overnight.

[MrCrush1914]

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo
930 thousand dollar donation collected company wide?? In ratio to the amount of money these bastards yank out of this country, it is an insult.

They do nothing for the USA compared to what the Big3 has done over the years.

Who the fuck cares how much they collected company wide.... From your bitching it sounds like they could have donated $0 and that would have been as well received by you as the "shameful" amount they actually did donate.

[Maxine1958]

Sorry I just can't let this one go.

I wasn't "lucky". I could not find a job in IT for almost 2 years after 9-11 while working in Wall Street.

What did I do? Moved back to Detroit and started going to school for other training, all the while stocking shelves at the local Meijer. Lucky me. I am not saying things are bad, and I have on unemployment many times, but as many have said above, what is happening in the auto industry did not happen overnight.

And what did you live on for those 2 years? Where did the money come from for you to go back to school? Did the income from 'stocking shelves at Meijer pay your rent, utilities, transportation and other essential living expenses? Just wondering since I may need to follow your economic plan in the near future.

[Islandman]

Sorry I just can't let this one go.



And what did you live on for those 2 years? Where did the money come from for you to go back to school? Did the income from 'stocking shelves at Meijer pay your rent, utilities, transportation and other essential living expenses? Just wondering since I may need to follow your economic plan in the near future.

G.I. Bill [[required me a sacrificing 8 years of my life) and working long hours at Meijer paid for all of my expenses. School, work, and home were very close to each other.

So, unless you spent a few years in the military, this economic plan may not work for you.

[EastsideAl]

Then buy a Ford Focus or Ford Mustang or Ford F-150. Designed in Metro Detroit, Built in Metro Detroit, Profits to HQ in Metro Detroit.

Damn man, don't rush me. I'm still working on my '87 Econoline and '98 Escort.

[EastsideAl]

Philosophically, I think we have to ask ourselves as a society how we let this happen. To a certain degree, I understand that globalization is unavoidable, but it shouldn't be this bad. You're only on the earth for a certain amount of time - hopefully working so that you and your family can have a better life. If you're constantly one step away from losing your job to foreign competition, even if you're a good worker, what kind of life is that? Also, what do you say to the line employee that's been doing the same thing for 30 years?

As someone whose father, grandfather, and great-grandfather worked in auto plants [[as did I, briefly) I agree with pretty much everything you have to say, but you're about 30 years too late.

We don't have to "philosophically" ask ourselves how this happened. We know damn well when and how it happened, it happened because we let it happen, and to some large extent encouraged it to happen. The cat was freed from this particular bag back when Ronald Reagan was elected in 1980 [[Michigan voted for him). And it escaped completely when all labor-friendly candidates were brushed aside in the 1992 primaries, and "new Democrat" free-trader Bill Clinton [[again, supported by Michigan voters) was nominated, elected, and then pushed NAFTA, etc. through.

To try to turn the clock back now and talk about "buy American" like it's 1975, when Toyota and Honda operate multiple production facilities in the U.S, when at least 10 "foreign" companies assemble cars in the U.S., when your "American" car is at least as likely to have been built outside of the U.S. as in it, and when the components in all of these cars will have come from all over the world, seems to me to be nostalgic in the extreme. And in many cases the worst sort of pseudo-patriotic near-xenophobic nostalgia for entities that could care less about you, that welcomed the order we now live under, and that are never going to turn the clock back themselves.

This nostalgia is also damaging in that it holds this area back. Like the ongoing and endless finger-pointing about 1967, the Young administration, and racial change and urban decline in Detroit, waiting for the smoky auto production-darkened skies of the '70s to return, or finger-pointing at your neighbors' American-built Toyota, is wallowing in the past. A past you will be unable to change now.

I understand our emotional connection to the auto industry, but let me tell you something folks, the auto industry has no emotional nostalgia for you. If anything, GM and Ford are just as happy to have ditched your expensive ass, and are perfectly fine with shipping as many jobs to powerless poor people in Latin America as they can, rather than creating more middle class people here in Michigan. I think that's terribly short-sighted, and I'll bet that most of you do too, but that's the "global" "free" economy we voted for. And for us to continue to wait for the auto industry to support us again is nothing short of economic and social suicide, and is part of what's strangling this area to death.

[Islandman]

Great post Al.

[darwinism]

I couldn't have said it better, EastsideAl.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "From your bitching it sounds like they could have donated $0 and that would have been as well received"

Are you implying I have a grudge against foreign companies stealing jobs here? You're right, you caught me, you're exactly right. Very perceptive, and I confess.

I will receive the whole foreign import dilemma better when our government stops fucking over the American worker and starts making it just as hard for them to do business here as it is the domestics. That's when I'll be happy about it. And I'll be bitching until it happens. These companies keep trying to Americanize themselves by using our songs from the 60's and associate themselves with all things American through sponsorships etc. The American worker is getting the short end of it.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "I understand our emotional connection to the auto industry,"

You people are so clueless it is beyond explanation. It would be wasted on you.

[ejames01]

How is opening new factories in the U.S. considered stealing jobs?

Quote: "From your bitching it sounds like they could have donated $0 and that would have been as well received"

Are you implying I have a grudge against foreign companies stealing jobs here? You're right, you caught me, you're exactly right. Very perceptive, and I confess.

I will receive the whole foreign import dilemma better when our government stops fucking over the American worker and starts making it just as hard for them to do business here as it is the domestics. That's when I'll be happy about it. And I'll be bitching until it happens. These companies keep trying to Americanize themselves by using our songs from the 60's and associate themselves with all things American through sponsorships etc. The American worker is getting the short end of it.

[darwinism]

How is opening new factories in the U.S. considered stealing jobs?

The person who made that statement probably feels the same way about East Indian doctors and Vietnamese nail salons in our community.

Fact of the matter; why don't our "American" youngsters go to medical school and become successful physicians so that they can be a primary care provider in our community? Why can't our "American" business owners open these nail salons and serve the needs of the women in our neighborhood?

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "How is opening new factories in the U.S. considered stealing jobs?"

I should have elaborated and said stealing good jobs. Those few token plants through the south are not going to continue to pay what they are as wages here drop. If the UAW comes knocking, they'll hightail it back home. Watch and see.

[Maxine1958]

G.I. Bill [[required me a sacrificing 8 years of my life) and working long hours at Meijer paid for all of my expenses. School, work, and home were very close to each other.

So, unless you spent a few years in the military, this economic plan may not work for you.

Yeah, I didn't have the honor of serving the country. Good that it worked out for you. I'll have to do more research I guess.

[Maxine1958]

The person who made that statement probably feels the same way about East Indian doctors and Vietnamese nail salons in our community.

Fact of the matter; why don't our "American" youngsters go to medical school and become successful physicians so that they can be a primary care provider in our community? Why can't our "American" business owners open these nail salons and serve the needs of the women in our neighborhood?

Can you answer those questions for me? Is it funding? Or is our entire educational system so royally messed up we are no longer able to produce doctors, nurses and business owners?

[darwinism]

By the way, why is it that all the 'Buy American' chest-thumpers always consider 'foreign' automakers to only be the Toyotas and the Hondas? How about VW, Mercedes, BMW and other European automakers?

Folks, foreign automakers aren't just Asian companies, you all know that, right?

Just making sure ethnicity doesn't get muddled up into the equation.

[darwinism]

Can you answer those questions for me? Is it funding? Or is our entire educational system so royally messed up we are no longer able to produce doctors, nurses and business owners?

Maxine1958, frankly ..... there are a variety of reasons, but for the most part, if you speak to medical school and university deans, it all comes down to drive and motivation, as well as hard-work.

Chinese and Indian college students are extremely driven, motivated and hard-working. The evidence speaks volume for itself. You don't see too many of them enjoying Spring Breaks at Daytona Beach or South Padre Island.

But first and foremost, all of us as a society needs to begin taking responsibility, instead of always playing the blame game. Pointing fingers at Asian automakers, pointing fingers at politicians, pointing fingers at the neighbor or forumer who owns a non-Big 3 vehicle ..... doesn't accomplish anything other than making yourself feel relieved that the burden isn't on your own shoulders. Well, guess what? The reality is that the burden didn't ever leave your shoulders.

[Maxine1958]

Way back when, when I was in high school, it was next to impossible for me to get any assistance to go to college. Believe me, I tried every avenue I knew of at the time. Finally, nearly depleting all hope, one admission office employee told me it would be much simpler if I weren't Caucasian. She bluntly asked me if there was any chance I could be some other race or first generation from any other country. So the issue of higher education is a sore point for me. I eventually found a place that would grant me a deferred interest loan, but only for one year. So I went to a technical/vocational school for two reasons. The obvious financial one, and the other was so that I would have some hope of gainful employment at the end of one year as opposed to maybe getting a job after four years.

I do my best to seek out American professionals when I need to hire anyone, doctors, plumbers, dry cleaners, etc. It's getting increasingly more difficult to do that. And not just because of the fees they charge. Because I can't find any Americans to hire.

Does this make me racist? Would you call me prejudiced?

[EastsideAl]

Who do you consider "American" enough for you? Is a second generation Hispanic person American? How about someone who came from, say, India as a child? Or someone who came from Lebanon as an adult and has a green card and has applied for naturalization? Are naturalized citizens good enough, or do they need to be native born? How about if they just have an accent, but you don't know where their from? Do you check their papers? How do you weed out the real Americans from the fake ones? Or is this one of those things where white folks only need apply?

Good thing your family has been in the U.S. since the beginning of time so that they didn't need to face any of these tough questions, and were obviously 100% original bona fide Americans from the start. Oh yeah, what tribe are you from?

[Maxine1958]

Yeah I guess I deserve that. What I should have said is that I am so very tired of dealing with people, professional educated people, whom I cannot understand when they speak to me. So I find it hard to believe they can fully understand and comprehend what I'm saying as well. I'll give three quick examples.

First, I took my car into a local service station. Not many of those around, but I thought I may have runover a carton and it may have wedged under my car. So I try to explain to the 'mechanic' that I would like him to look under my car to see if some thing is stuck under there. He tries to tell me [[I think) that he cannot 'put my car be fixed' because his 'elevator not working'. After three minutes of trying to explain my situation, I went home, changed my clothes and crawled under my car myself.

Second, I took some clothing to my regular dry cleaners. When I walked in and did not see the usual clerk behind the counter, my first thought was perhaps she was off that day. I tried to explain that one of my blouses had a salad dressing stain on the front and could they give it some special attention. Again, after many minutes trying to explain what I wanted, I asked if there was someone else I could speak to. I was told, 'I buy place. I run myself. No one here but me.' I took my clothes and found another dry cleaner.

Third, I am on my second 'primary care physician' in ten years. My original MD retired and the practice was taken over by a new physian who did not want to be a general MD. Even the office staff left within the first few months of the transition. Both he and the next doctor I was referred to could barely speak English and kept having me repeat many tests because my results 'fall in between guidelines. Need new test. Maybe different result.'

So after this long reply, perhaps you can understand my frustration.

Oh and the last time a friend of mine called a recommended plumber to 'snake out my drain', the man came with a box 'to put snake in'. I'd laugh, but it's not really funny anymore.

[darwinism]

"Americans" as a whole; Black, White, Asians, Hispanics, and etc. MUST STOP blaming everybody and their grandmother for every problem that this country faces. Financial meltdown => Blame China, Unemployment/Outsourcing => Blame India, Health care => Blame Democrats, War => Blame Republicans, there is always somebody to blame. How often do you ever hear somebody fess up and say "Sorry, it is my fault" ?

Look ..... if you're not happy with government policies, DO SOMETHING !! Run for office, organize a movement. Complaining, complaining and complaining doesn't help you get any closer to your well-being.

Not happy that GM, Chrysler and Ford are no longer the icons of automotive supremacy; well, brush up you resume and go work for them - Turn them around and make them into powerhouses once again. If you are unwilling to work for them, or if they aren't interested to hire you, then I guess the buck stops right there doesn't it?

[ejames01]

Ok, How is building a new factory, stealing "good jobs"? Did opening a Honda plant in Maryville, OH cause GM to close some of their plants? I don't get it.

Quote: "How is opening new factories in the U.S. considered stealing jobs?"

I should have elaborated and said stealing good jobs. Those few token plants through the south are not going to continue to pay what they are as wages here drop. If the UAW comes knocking, they'll hightail it back home. Watch and see.

[darwinism]

Yeah I guess I deserve that. What I should have said is that I am so very tired of dealing with people, professional educated people, whom I cannot understand when they speak to me. So I find it hard to believe they can fully understand and comprehend what I'm saying as well. I'll give three quick examples.

First, I took my car into a local service station. Not many of those around, but I thought I may have runover a carton and it may have wedged under my car. So I try to explain to the 'mechanic' that I would like him to look under my car to see if some thing is stuck under there. He tries to tell me [[I think) that he cannot 'put my car be fixed' because his 'elevator not working'. After three minutes of trying to explain my situation, I went home, changed my clothes and crawled under my car myself.

Second, I took some clothing to my regular dry cleaners. When I walked in and did not see the usual clerk behind the counter, my first thought was perhaps she was off that day. I tried to explain that one of my blouses had a salad dressing stain on the front and could they give it some special attention. Again, after many minutes trying to explain what I wanted, I asked if there was someone else I could speak to. I was told, 'I buy place. I run myself. No one here but me.' I took my clothes and found another dry cleaner.

Third, I am on my second 'primary care physician' in ten years. My original MD retired and the practice was taken over by a new physian who did not want to be a general MD. Even the office staff left within the first few months of the transition. Both he and the next doctor I was referred to could barely speak English and kept having me repeat many tests because my results 'fall in between guidelines. Need new test. Maybe different result.'

So after this long reply, perhaps you can understand my frustration.

Oh and the last time a friend of mine called a recommended plumber to 'snake out my drain', the man came with a box 'to put snake in'. I'd laugh, but it's not really funny anymore.

Maxine1958, I appreciate your honesty.

I believe there is a difference between being a racist, as opposed to simply being annoyed that someone is hard to understand.

You know what is truly funny? All these immigrants, whether they have an accent or not, came to America because they believe that by working hard, they will be able to own their own auto repair shop, their own dry cleaning business, their own medical practice and their own plumbing operation ..... and guess what ..... they succeed.

What's stopping a blonde hair, blue-eyed American from owning their own auto repair shop, their own dry cleaning business, their own medical practice, their own plumbing operation or their own nail salon? Absolutely nothing is stopping them. Bear in mind that we're not just talking exclusively about highly-trained professions, like lawyers, engineers and etc ..... we're talking about other low-tech occupations like plumbing, dry cleaning, Quizno's, Dunkin' Donuts and so on. Think about it, think about what is required as far as common denominators. The only common factor I can see between an MD and a gas station owner is HARD-WORK and DEDICATION. SOLID NO-NONSENSE HARD-WORK ..... 12-14 hour work days 7-days a week. It's a choice. And because of the choice they made, you are stuck with the problem of limited candidates to hire for everything ranging from a doctor to a dry cleaner. Now, you tell me whose fault that is? Reality bites, and reality is that nobody is 'stealing' jobs from anybody.

[Maxine1958]

Maxine1958, I appreciate your honesty.

I believe there is a difference between being a racist, as opposed to simply being annoyed that someone is hard to understand.

You know what is truly funny? All these immigrants, whether they have an accent or not, came to America because they believe that by working hard, they will be able to own their own auto repair shop, their own dry cleaning business, their own medical practice and their own plumbing operation ..... and guess what ..... they succeed.

What's stopping a blonde hair, blue-eyed American from owning their own auto repair shop, their own dry cleaning business, their own medical practice, their own plumbing operation or their own nail salon? Absolutely nothing is stopping them. Bear in mind that we're not just talking exclusively about highly-trained professions, like lawyers, engineers and etc ..... we're talking about other low-tech occupations like plumbing, dry cleaning, Quizno's, Dunkin' Donuts and so on. Think about it, think about what is required as far as common denominators. The only common factor I can see between an MD and a gas station owner is HARD-WORK and DEDICATION. SOLID NO-NONSENSE HARD-WORK ..... 12-14 hour work days 7-days a week. It's a choice. And because of the choice they made, you are stuck with the problem of limited candidates to hire for everything ranging from a doctor to a dry cleaner. Now, you tell me whose fault that is? Reality bites, and reality is that nobody is 'stealing' jobs from anybody.

I agree that somewhere along the line many Americans have lost the desire to work their way up the ladder. My parents owned a store. I watched them work 10-12-14+ hour days and then come home and take care of the house inside and out. I learned that if I worked hard, applied myself, that I too could be successful. And for awhile it was true. But then something changed. Somewhere in the 80's or around that time it didn't matter whether you worked harder or smarter or better than the next person, all that mattered was who would work for less.

When I see all those Dunkin Donuts, Quiznos, 7-11's and gas stations run by immigrants I too wonder why they are not run by Americans. Is it truly that simple? Have we as a nation become that lazy? My God that scares me.

[darwinism]

I agree that somewhere along the line many Americans have lost the desire to work their way up the ladder. My parents owned a store. I watched them work 10-12-14+ hour days and then come home and take care of the house inside and out. I learned that if I worked hard, applied myself, that I too could be successful. And for awhile it was true. But then something changed. Somewhere in the 80's or around that time it didn't matter whether you worked harder or smarter or better than the next person, all that mattered was who would work for less.

When I see all those Dunkin Donuts, Quiznos, 7-11's and gas stations run by immigrants I too wonder why they are not run by Americans. Is it truly that simple? Have we as a nation become that lazy? My God that scares me.

It saddens me more than anything, Maxine1958.

Just look at this thread alone, and break it down for yourself. Instead of taking responsibilities, folks here on this forum itself are blaming Toyota and Honda for the demise of GM and Chrysler. Do you see Ford pointing fingers? No, Ford took it upon itself to fix their own problems, and now they have cars that are ranked as well as Toyota and Honda. The Lincoln line is as luxurious as Lexus, Mercedes and BMW.

You brought up a good point regarding 'pricing' and 'working for less money'. Do you find that an East Indian MD charges you less money? Or a Vietnamese nail tech charges you cheaper rates? How about the price of a Subway sandwich from an immigrant-owned franchise compared to a Subway sandwich from an "American"-owned franchise? Do immigrants really work for less money, and charges lower rates, hence losing money on each and every sale due to their lower prices? Well, if that's the case, you can bet they aren't going to be in business long.

Personally, as was documented in another thread about 6-8 weeks ago, I have been successful in helping my car-shopping friends towards buying a 2009 Chevy Malibu and a 2009 Saturn Vue, as well as one who is seriously looking at the 2010 Mercury Milan, at this moment. Believe me, it wasn't difficult to decide on a domestic vehicle at all. As long as GM and Ford come out with great quality products, at comparable prices, Toyota and Honda do not have a chance. Bob Lutz have publicly admitted fault in regards to quality, on numerous occasions. So, why is it so difficult for the die-hard fans to admit inferiority? The answer is simple - Ego, and ego is at work when all they know to do is to preach "Buy American" no matter what. For me, I preach "Buy the BEST product for the money, May the BEST be American". Fortunately, my effort hasn't gone to waste as the 2009 Malibus and 2009/2010 Fusions are indeed the BEST vehicles for the money.