Survey: Camry more American than F-150

[EastsideAl]

This is what a global economy looks like folks. And if we're going to organize to stop the worst excesses of this, and to extract some of the surplus of production for working people, then it will have to be done on a muti-national basis. Being provincial and hating workers overseas out of some notion of protecting turf is a strategy that's growing ever more outmoded by the minute, and will not effect any meaningful change. It is, in fact, playing right into the globalizers hands.

[EastsideAl]

I think you'll find the air quality will be very acceptable. Like it is in most third world countries.

You really don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about, do you? Have you ever been to one of these "third world countries" you're talking about? Third world cities are some of the most polluted places on Earth, and in large measure because they are where we in the "first world" have located many of our dirtiest industries.

Oh, and I grew up in Detroit in the 1960s and '70s, so I really don't need a lecture from you about what things were like then.

[mjs]

Sstashmoo, I realize you hate to cite what you refer to or base your opinions on data so I won't even dare ask what would make you say "they are stealing our intellectual property at an alarming rate". For the rest of you, there are issues with certain country's lax enforcement of intellectual property laws, but they do have laws, the US, Japan, and Europe do confiscate goods that violate IP rights and sentence offenders, and through organizations such as the UN and WIPO, there is pressure on the laxer countries to ensure these issues remain relatively minor. Illegal downloads by Americans is a much larger concern in the IP world. A brief google search will bring you to a great many articles on the topic. Unfortunately, its a complex issue that requires a great detail of explanation so none of them are short. I just caution you to be careful in giving creedence to a short generalization by someone such as Sstashmoo that has no education in intellectual property and has no wishes to ever gain any.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "For the rest of you, there are issues with certain country's lax enforcement of intellectual property laws, but they do have laws,"

That's like saying we have drug laws, and they can be bought on every corner. MJS, that is hardly enforced at all. Unfortunately, most small businesses don't have the capital to fight it anyway. That's the running joke about protection articles. You have it, now let's see you defend it. Scare letters from attorneys is as far as it ever gets. If you were an Attorney, you'd know that.

Quote: "Unfortunately, its a complex issue"

Maybe for you it is. I've seen a multitude of people put out of business due to our unfair trade policies and loss of intellectual property. I'm on the front lines so to speak.

Quote: "I just caution you to be careful in giving creedence to a short generalization by someone such as Sstashmoo that has no education in intellectual property and has no wishes to ever gain any."

These people sure get pissed when you prove them wrong. Out come the personal insults.

[Islandman]

Quote: "Adapt to the new rules in a global economy or lose."

Said the fly to the spider.

Some people need a piano to fall on them it seems. Can you not see what is going on here in the US? Do you not realize it is going to get worse? Could I interest you in a bridge?

Some people think they can catch a piano it seems. You should have been yapping about this 30 years ago, but my guess is that you weren't even born, not that it matters. Of course I realize it's going to get worse, but like with everything, you have to adapt.

Bitching about the car someone buys is is so micro-level to this issue it's hilarious. Until our lawmakers change the rules [[look like that's never going to happen) this is the way it is. Too many rich people on the small end of the pie are making money on this; international markets anyone?

[mjs]

Lets look at the sky is falling will never happen worst case scenario. We shut down every plant owned by the big three and replace all of these vehicle sales with foreign made vehicles made overseas. Lets even simplify the numbers and pretend that the big three make all their vehicles domestically and the dealerships don't add to the cost. Since the big three have 44% of the $107 billion auto market, thats a $47 billion swing in the trade defecit.

Now, the Prius that some hate so much gets 47 mpg and the closest domestic midsize gets 23 to 27 mpg depending on what manufacturer you wish to use. Even using the 27 mpg Saturn Hybrid which GM won't make anymore, the Prius uses 42% less fuel. A 42% reduction in the $319 billion we spend on gasoline and oil reduces our trade deficit by $136 billion and that doesn't even include the military we maintain and foreign aid we provide to keep our enormous energy needs fed. I think we could do worse than follow the National Park Service's example on how to improve the environment while cutting the trade deficit where it needs it the most. We can just get the other American industrial facilities to offset those emmisions through tighter cap and trade restrictions because there are much much more of these facilities than Buy American thinks.

Besides, BA only imagined these Prius's. The big three say they can't be made and we are the best in the world and the only reason anyone manufactures products over seas is cheap labor and we invent everything in the world before its stolen from us so logic says they can't exist.

[mjs]

Actually, Sstashmoo, I'm still a registered Patent Attorney with the United States Patent and Trademark Office so I know you are completely wrong in your assessment of IP law enforcement. A great number of people make their living enforcing IP law both civilly and criminally so trust me when I say it goes well beyond warning letters. The warning letters are to lay the foundation to collect three times the loss when the complainant proves that the violation was intentional.

I read the articles and opinions so, I know that its actually a complex issue to everyone even if you lack the knowledge to even understand how or why its complex. Sometimes third world governments are a little busy with other issues to provide the enforcement resources and the loss estimates that developed countries can.

I'm the last person to say we shouldn't slam buyers and sellers of Wolex watches and DVDs with adhesive labels.

[Maxine1958]

Globalization and global economy are not lies; these are concepts. These concepts are not a temporary condition, and are not going away. Our own capitalistic system encourages these concepts, unfortunately it does not differentiate on sides.

Adapt to the new rules in a global economy or lose.

My industry adapted to the new rules in a global economy and lost 90% of US job positions.

Thank you for your support.

[Sstashmoo]

With our current situation we are on a dead end street. No amount of sooth saying and rationalizing it is going to change that. There is no future for the American worker in any of your hypothesis.

Where was I "30 years ago"? Saying the same thing I'm saying right now. .

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "My industry adapted to the new rules in a global economy and lost 90% of US job positions."

If I had a nickel....

[drjeff]

Now, the Prius that some hate so much gets 47 mpg and the closest domestic midsize gets 23 to 27 mpg depending on what manufacturer you wish to use. Even using the 27 mpg Saturn Hybrid which GM won't make anymore, the Prius uses 42% less fuel.

The new Ford Fusion hybrid gets 42 mpg. That's better than any other true midsize hybrid. The Prius only qualifies as a midsize because of it's bubble shape, with a lot of unusable volume under the roof and a tiny trunk. The Fusion is a real midsize car that looks great, has ample room and storage space, has much better technology and features inside, and gets great gas mileage.

[Buy American]

With our current situation we are on a dead end street. No amount of sooth saying and rationalizing it is going to change that. There is no future for the American worker in any of your hypothesis.

Where was I "30 years ago"? Saying the same thing I'm saying right now. .

Cheers to you Sstashmoo....

[EastsideAl]

The new Ford Fusion hybrid gets 42 mpg.

And it's built in the good ol' USA state of Sonora...

Unlike the Prius, which will be built beginning in 2010 by those dastardly foreigners in Blue Springs Mississippi.

Nothing against the Fusion Hybrid, especially since I've been a Ford driver from way back, but this just again points out the futility of any nationalistic notion of "buying American" in our present economy. The auto companies themselves have certainly already left it behind.

As with many other things, we really need to move on in this region ...

[mjs]

Oh, I thought we were referring to the vehicles that BA saw and whether the Feds should have bought them when they actually needed them. Ok, lets pretend that when they needed vehicles in 2008 or whenever, they had a choice between a mexican made 2010 Fusion Hybrid with 41/36 mpg and the third generation 2010 Prius with 51/48 mpg. Now the numbers are only 24% to 33% savings which if applied to all vehicles would reduce the trade deficit by $77 billion to $105 billion. And we still have that pesky problem of so much of our international influence and deficit spending going to ensure we keep getting our low low cost oil.

Anyone else notice that even though Ford and GM took the early lead on the solar panel research, only Toyota actually put the lessons to use on a production vehicle. More can do versus can't do.

http://www.toyota.com/prius-hybrid/

[mjs]

By the way, before you go predicting my future and declaring that my unwillingness to crucify other consumers means I don't care about America, consider these facts. I own a Michigan assembled G6, one of the most American made vehicles out there, which GM is incidently cutting. I work for an American owned international company that supplies American automobile manufacturers as well as foreign auto manufacturers and other customers. The entire facility has been laid off despite having improved our quality, customer satisfaction, profits, and market share. We weren't laid off because we are being cheated or because some politician did or didn't do whatever, but because both the domestic and international markets took a dump in every sector at a time that the autos were in the down part of their never ending cycle of ups and downs. We didn't get our gains over our competitors by crying about the way things are, but rather by finding solutions. The only fear I have for our future is that there might be too many folks that couldn't wait it out and we'll get too many with a big three can't do entitlement attitude when we return.

[Islandman]

My industry adapted to the new rules in a global economy and lost 90% of US job positions.

Thank you for your support.

Now I think we are getting somewhere. The industry that you are in adapted to a global economy, whereas people in your industry working in the US did not see the writing on the wall called globalization.

Plenty of the jobs in my field have moved overseas too.

What did I do? Moved on in to a position in my industry that is still lucrative and has not been downsized. I'm sure it's not going to be the last time I will have to do this. What didn't I do? Bitch about the fact so many IT jobs are moving to India, and blame my fellow citizens for my woes because of their purchasing choices by supporting companies that use overseas tech support.

I am obviously not happy about this happening to anyone, but when people keep thinking that their jobs were going to be around forever, they have no one to blame but themselves.

[Maxine1958]

Gosh Islandman, I wish I lived on that island too. Where the sun shines everyday and eveyone is able to learn a new trade, find a new job, and keep their financial heads above water. Tell me more about that wonderful place.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "What did I do? Moved on in to a position in my industry that is still lucrative and has not been downsized."

Yet. What is your plan when that happens? There are armies of college grads that are having trouble getting a menial job right now, you are aware of that right? What should thousands of people do that did not have a segway afforded to them, and are simply unemployed? You do understand the fundamentals of the concept of "unemployment"? No Jobs available, etc? Not everyone can simply do something else, when there is simply nothing else to do.

Just because you were lucky and found something else in lieu of getting tossed to the curb, don't condemn others for their consequences and somehow make it their own fault.

[mjs]

I think the next line suggest what he's going to do. "I'm sure it's not going to be the last time I will have to do this." He will get another job and training if need be.

High unemployment is part of a recession and we are most certainly in a recession as we have been in the past and will be in the future. Even isolationist economies can experience high unemployment. Take 1930s America for example. It might suprise you to learn that even your most beloved countries are seeing high unemployment. But don't fear. We will come back as we always have from every other recession. Hopefully, we'll come back faster than the time the government tried to isolate and borrow its way out.

[wazootyman]

Nothing against the Fusion Hybrid, especially since I've been a Ford driver from way back, but this just again points out the futility of any nationalistic notion of "buying American" in our present economy. The auto companies themselves have certainly already left it behind.

Okay, so final assembly occurs in Mexico. It's hard to find exact figures, but as of 2007, Ford employed almost 40,000 in Michigan alone. I can't find a breakdown of white collar vs. blue collar [[implying perhaps engineering/support versus assembly line that may not be involved in the Fusion). In any case, what do you suppose they do in those dozens of buildings spread about Rotunda & Oakwood Drive? Cook up Taco recipes?

As with many other things, we really need to move on in this region ...

That's the 'ol can-do spirit. Let 'em smart Japanese do all the hard work, we'll just get some Southerners to put 'em together and all is well.

Please.

You're forgetting the vast wealth the industry has bought this region. To date, Metro Detroit has the highest concentration of engineers in the United States. Forget that 80% of the world's automotive R&D occurs here [[source: Wayne County's website). Yeah, let's just toss everything away everything we've accomplished because it has gotten tough out there...

What do you propose that the so-called new economy should bring to Detroit to better this country? Stock trading? Hotel management? Blogging?

What did I do? Moved on in to a position in my industry that is still lucrative and has not been downsized. I'm sure it's not going to be the last time I will have to do this.

Philosophically, I think we have to ask ourselves as a society how we let this happen. To a certain degree, I understand that globalization is unavoidable, but it shouldn't be this bad. You're only on the earth for a certain amount of time - hopefully working so that you and your family can have a better life. If you're constantly one step away from losing your job to foreign competition, even if you're a good worker, what kind of life is that? Also, what do you say to the line employee that's been doing the same thing for 30 years? Go back to school? I don't think it's that easy to just take a 180 when you're almost near retirement age. I'm an electrical engineer, on my third job since I graduated in 2004, and I'm anticipating change looming again. I keep ahead best I can [[constantly learning, picking up side IT consulting jobs), but I still am far from comfortable about the future.

[Sstashmoo]

Wazootyman wrote: If you're constantly one step away from losing your job to foreign competition, even if you're a good worker, what kind of life is that?

Excellent question and I'll bet it doesn't get answered. Who wants to live not knowing if this week will be their last? Very unsettling existence. And what bank wants to get involved long term with someone whom is continually changing jobs? And may wind up unemployed in the process. You are exactly right, that is not the way of life we want in this country.

[Patrick]

If you're constantly one step away from losing your job to foreign competition, even if you're a good worker, what kind of life is that?

How dare you ask that question!!! How dare you question the free will and Horatio Algers of this country!!!!! Don't you know??? Just pull yourself up by the bootstraps!!

[East Detroit]

Nothing against the Fusion Hybrid, especially since I've been a Ford driver from way back, but ...

Then buy a Ford Focus or Ford Mustang or Ford F-150. Designed in Metro Detroit, Built in Metro Detroit, Profits to HQ in Metro Detroit.

[reddog289]

East Detroit, You are right on.

[ejames01]

Why is everyone so obsessed with the profits of companies that they do not work for? Try working harder for the organization that is actually paying you.