Is Detroit Safe or Not? What parts?—Trying to understand the hype

[jmc247]

Hi All,

We need help figuring out what parts of Detroit we should move to.

Detroit has a lot of supporters and a lot of nay-sayers.

Some people offering advice on it are pretty clearly just afraid of big cities [[or people who don’t look like them!), and others are 20-somethings who think being held up at gun-point just makes for a great story.

We’re in between, and we’re having trouble figuring out what the deal is with Detroit, where we’re moving this summer, though we have never visited. Now when I say “safe” I understand that this is partly a matter of luck, acting smart, and being reasonable like any other city, but we know that what part of a city you live in makes a difference.

We’ve lived in Philadelphia [[West Philly, Manayunk, South Philly, Center City) and for the last 7 years in Oakland California [[Piedmont Ave/Temescal, Emeryville) so we’re pretty comfortable with urban life. We like urban life. We don’t mind being hassled for change or seeing a little graffiti. We don’t leave valuables in our car [[which isn’t a brand new Lexus) or take walks at 3AM, and we lock our windows; no big deal.

What we’re concerned about is getting shot, mugged, home-invaded, or other crimes that are way beyond “nuisance.”

So, really, what’s the deal? What parts of Detroit should we consider? We want to be near some cafes and bars and restaurants and in a diverse area, but we also have a 1 year old so safety is really key. We’ve heard that Corktown, Midtown, and Downtown are all pretty safe, and sometimes the same for Hamtramck, Woodbridge, and New Center. Would you move your young family there?

Why are some of the houses [[like in Hamtramck for instance) so darn cheap? Is it just a supply/demand thing or are the $30,000 houses only in neighborhoods you really can’t drive through without asking to be target practice?

And are the burbs that much better? We’ve also been looking at Plymouth, Royal Oak, Ferndale, and maybe as far as Ann Arbor for a nice town-center kind of suburb where you can walk to some things.

We’d really appreciate any guidance, especially from anyone who’s also familiar with Philadelphia or Oakland [[California) and can give us neighborhood-to-neighborhood comparisons.

Looking forward to joining you all in Detroit!

JC

[Eber Brock Ward]

JC, check out Woodbridge, especially since you have formed babby.

There is an active moms' club in the neighborhood, and what's great is they're not Stepford Moms but cool, interesting people. If you plan on living here for at least a few years, there will be other kids in the neighborhood to play with, and Midtown and Corktown and all of the cafes, bars, restaurants and all of that stuff are a quick bike ride away, for when you want to do more adult things.

When my wife and I moved out here from another major city, we felt that we were compromising on "fun" and "city" a bit moving into a neighborhood with single-family homes, but we've found that most everything is an easy bike ride or <$8 cab ride away, and also believe that it'll be a *far* better fit in a few years with babby in our future.

Good luck!

[Bham1982]

No offense, but how could someone [[with children, no less) move to a city sight-unseen?

And I don't understand the more specific questions. I mean, Hamtramck or Plymouth? For real? They're completely opposite communities. Why not compare Manhattan to Nome, Alaska? Plymouth is ultra-sprawly exurban stuff; Hamtramck is a decayed [[though not really ghetto or dangerous) immigrant entry point.

Maybe make a list of priorities. If you value diversity, what does this mean? Same goes with urbanity. What does it mean to you? You have a one-year old. I assume you prefer parks/open space, schooling options, and other nearby parents.

I can't imagine the Detroit city proper is a super popular place for young families with children and options in life [[parks? schools?) but there are probably people in your situation living there who are doing fine.

[jmc247]

Thanks for your candor. We know what we value, but we don’t know Detroit.

We’re not intending to move sight unseen; we’ve coming to visit and want to know what you who know the city better than we feel about it. We’re moving for a job, not just for the heck of it, and are concerned about the exact things you are talking about.

I threw the suburbs in for those who felt that there is no place in the city they would want to live [[including you, maybe?), for their opinion. One can compare anything to anything, as you [[quite helpfully!) just did in comparing Plymouth and Hamtramck. It’s great to know how different you feel these places are.

Also, if we live in Detroit Public Schools area, we’d be planning on private school.

Again, thanks!

[Wesley Mouch]

...snip...Also, if we live in Detroit Public Schools area, we’d be planning on private school.

Good decision. DPS is in turmoil.

Bear in mind that school districts in Michigan are not the same as civic boundaries. Oak Park schools cover part of adjacent Ferndale. I do believe the Detroit School District does match City boundaries -- anyone know otherwise?

[expatriate]

You didn't mention that I noticed where you were commuting to. If the commute is in downtown Detroit then Grosse Pointe is only about 7 miles away. It is a leafy 1920s-30s suburb that has great amenities. If your commute is "downtown" you don't have the sun in your eyes on either the morning or evening commute.

[Hermod]

No offense, but how could someone [[with children, no less) move to a city sight-unseen?

Try being in the Army. Pack everything in the car. Drive to new city/station. Throw the wife and kids into an efficiency motel room. Go report for duty. Wangle a day off to go looking for an apartment/house to rent. See post transportation as to when you can get your household goods delivered/dumped.

[illwill]

Bham1982,

I completely agree with you 100%. I'm kind of puzzled by reading post about people moving ANYWHERE sight-unseen. Even if it's the next town over. And they're willing to take advice from people they've never met.

My advice is do yourself a favor and take a short trip and see the area first hand before you move to a place. That's common sense.

I don't get it...

[jmc247]

illWill, See the response to Bham. You're right, it is common sense, and of course we're visiting. That doesn't stop us from asking for peoples' thoughts about where we should look when we do. It also makes sense not to judge an area only by a few hours visit, and to seek out the advice of those more familiar with it. Thanks for your thoughts!

[Danny]

How can Woodbrigde be safe! No ghettohood in Detroit is safe.

[Zacha341]

Yes, to some extent I agree Danny. One block south of 12 street and you're toast for stepping out of Woodbridge; a few blocks north along Trumbull and you have that 'hell' known as Ferry Pk Street/ Linwood etc. And Grand River and say Warren, let's not even go there... horrid.

I grew up all of these areas, went to Murray-Wright HS, live on Commonwealth before I left there area, so this is not stuff I am googling...

I can only present areas that are 'safer' in the city appose to areas that are just 'done'. No area is really safe.... nope. Woodbridge and Midtown does have WSU policing and that is a big plus but there have still be some problems.

How can Woodbrigde be safe! No ghettohood in Detroit is safe.

[Honky Tonk]

One block south of 12 street and you're toast for Woodbridge, a few blocks north along Trumbull...

Both 12th Street and Trumbull run North and South.

[Gistok]

If you like Ferndale and Royal Oak [[both of which need a car)... you might want to include St. Clair Shores into your list... nice housing stock [[especially nearer Lake St. Clair)... a cheaper price than Royal Oak, and you get the bonus of waterfront parks and 2 freeways nearby.

[rutlev]

Here in Corktown, we have several new families, lots of small tykes and expectant mothers. We have a couple of nice parks, Murphy Playlot across from Mudgies [[that Greg adopted and keeps up). There's Holy Trinity elementary school. Some families do drive their children to Waldorf and/or Friends. I'm thinking in the next 4-5 years the public school system will have improved and families can once again consider public education. It's coming.
There will be a demand for quality education that will have to be met and the teachers that live in the neighborhood here are a promise of good things to come.

[poobert]

Here in Corktown, we have several new families, lots of small tykes and expectant mothers. We have a couple of nice parks, Murphy Playlot across from Mudgies [[that Greg adopted and keeps up). There's Holy Trinity elementary school. Some families do drive their children to Waldorf and/or Friends. I'm thinking in the next 4-5 years the public school system will have improved and families can once again consider public education. It's coming.
There will be a demand for quality education that will have to be met and the teachers that live in the neighborhood here are a promise of good things to come.

I'd second Corktown. When I lived there, it had always had young families and kids. Since then, the neighborhood has gotten better, even.

You value urban life and have experience with it. It's not rocket science, though people here are acting all coy and baffled. People here are going to try to drag you through the mud, kicking and screaming, to Bloomfarmingham Hillsdale Oak. Understand that while Detroit is indeed very dangerous and sucky in many ways, this is an extremely suburban-centric region. To many people, going to - let alone living in - the city is unheard of. If you like urban living, I can tell you you will likely be unhappy in the suburbs. Makes sense, right? I can't really understand why someone who says they like urban living and lived in Oakland and Philly would get responses like "St. Clair Shores" [[a perfectly nice but also perfectly non-descript post-war 1960's - 1970's suburb), but, that's Metro Detroit.


Also, there are many other nice neighborhoods in the city [[I live in one) but they have a very suburban [[though pre-WWII) feel, which is probably not what you're looking for.

[TexasT]

Also, there are many other nice neighborhoods in the city [[I live in one) but they have a very suburban [[though pre-WWII) feel, which is probably not what you're looking for.

Yeah, Palmer Woods and perhaps Indian Village and Grandmont-Rosedale probably fall into those that category, although those three are really nice neighborhoods.

Midtown and Downtown are almost all lofts/condos/apartments, so while the most fun and very safe, you're not going to find single-family homes.

Sounds like Woodbridge or Corktown are his best bets. Neighborhoods of homes built in the early 1900s, family friendly, relatively safe, biking/walking distance to bars/restaurants/entertainment [[I bike/walk from Woodbridge to Midtown when it's warm enough but Corktown is better for entertainment as it has the whole Michigan strip within close walking distance). Both have easy freeway access making his commute to Dearborn a breeze. FWIW, OP, Woodbridge is running $80K to $120K right now. I don't know Corktown as well, but we got outbid on a house there last summer with an offer of $130K.

I'd move to Corktown just to be within walking distance of Le Petit Zinc.

[Bham1982]

You value urban life and have experience with it. It's not rocket science, though people here are acting all coy and baffled. People here are going to try to drag you through the mud, kicking and screaming, to Bloomfarmingham Hillsdale Oak. Understand that while Detroit is indeed very dangerous and sucky in many ways, this is an extremely suburban-centric region. To many people, going to - let alone living in - the city is unheard of. If you like urban living, I can tell you you will likely be unhappy in the suburbs.

This isn't directed specifically at you, because I've seen many people do it on DYes, but I don't get the conflating of "urban" with "slum" or "ghetto".

Pretty much nothing your writing about has anything to do with "urban" life, but rather has to do with people's perceptions re. high concentrations of lower income people in a metropolitan setting [[i.e. ghetto or whatever term you want to apply).

Detroit [[the city) isn't urban. It just isn't. If you were to take the 1,000 largest cities in the world, Detroit would be like #994 on the urban-o-scale [[and all the bottom 20 would be U.S. cities). The difference between Corktown and St. Clair Shores, in the grand scheme of things [[speaking strictly urbanity) is rather slight. In both cases, you have a little single family house, on a little yard, with one or two cars, and offstreet parking, and all the retail is separated from the residential, and you could walk if you wanted to, but that isn't the primary mode of neighborhood circulation.

The real reason people have issues with the city proper isn't in any way related to relative urbanity. They don't have the same issues with San Francisco, NYC, or whatever random city in Europe, yet those places are all vastly more urban.

[poobert]

This isn't directed specifically at you, because I've seen many people do it on DYes, but I don't get the conflating of "urban" with "slum" or "ghetto".

Pretty much nothing your writing about has anything to do with "urban" life, but rather has to do with people's perceptions re. high concentrations of lower income people in a metropolitan setting [[i.e. ghetto or whatever term you want to apply).

Detroit [[the city) isn't urban. It just isn't. If you were to take the 1,000 largest cities in the world, Detroit would be like #994 on the urban-o-scale [[and all the bottom 20 would be U.S. cities). The difference between Corktown and St. Clair Shores, in the grand scheme of things [[speaking strictly urbanity) is rather slight. In both cases, you have a little single family house, on a little yard, with one or two cars, and offstreet parking, and all the retail is separated from the residential, and you could walk if you wanted to, but that isn't the primary mode of neighborhood circulation.

The real reason people have issues with the city proper isn't in any way related to relative urbanity. They don't have the same issues with San Francisco, NYC, or whatever random city in Europe, yet those places are all vastly more urban.

I know you're an expert on all things everything, but for starters, and finishers, Corktown doesn't have driveways.

[TexasT]

This isn't directed specifically at you, because I've seen many people do it on DYes, but I don't get the conflating of "urban" with "slum" or "ghetto".

Pretty much nothing your writing about has anything to do with "urban" life, but rather has to do with people's perceptions re. high concentrations of lower income people in a metropolitan setting [[i.e. ghetto or whatever term you want to apply).

Detroit [[the city) isn't urban. It just isn't. If you were to take the 1,000 largest cities in the world, Detroit would be like #994 on the urban-o-scale [[and all the bottom 20 would be U.S. cities). The difference between Corktown and St. Clair Shores, in the grand scheme of things [[speaking strictly urbanity) is rather slight. In both cases, you have a little single family house, on a little yard, with one or two cars, and offstreet parking, and all the retail is separated from the residential, and you could walk if you wanted to, but that isn't the primary mode of neighborhood circulation.

The real reason people have issues with the city proper isn't in any way related to relative urbanity. They don't have the same issues with San Francisco, NYC, or whatever random city in Europe, yet those places are all vastly more urban.

The neighborhoods aren't "urban" of course, but Detroit certainly is. It's about proximity to things a real city offers. Culture, sports, entertainment, dining, diversity of people and cultures, events, etc. Sorry, you don't get those in St. Clair Shores to the extent you do living near downtown Detroit, where I can catch an off-Broadway show at the Fisher or Fox, go to a pro football, baseball or hockey game, see Van Gogh's "Bedroom in Arles" at the DIA on loan from the Louvre, catch a wide variety of local music acts, buy some kiszka from Srodeck's Polish deli in Hamtramck or fresh tortillas from Los Galanes in Mexicantown or fried saganaki in Greektown, or buy my vegetables fresh from the farmer in the largest farmers market in the country at Eastern Market and my meats fresh from the butcher in Gratiot Central Market, attend the Hoedown, Jazzfest, EMF, and Blues Fest, or run into the wide variety of people I've met from all over the country with such differences in opinions and mindsets [[which is extremely hard to find in the suburbs) - I can do all of that within 5 minutes of my house [[maybe 10 min to get to Hamtramk) and a $5-10 cab ride back home after I've had a few drinks at Rodin or Roast or Motor City Wine or Sugar Shack or wherever I go for the night. But really, it's about the variety of people and opinions that I meet - I like the interactions I get here in Detroit - and the OP indicates that diversity is important to him as well.

Yes, you can drive from the suburbs down to do these things but you don't do them as often when it's such a pain and I like to be out 3-5 nights a week doing these things. That's just what my life is like. If these things are valuable to you - and I get that they aren't to some people - then living in the city, specifically near downtown, is a must. I couldn't replicate my Chicago-lifestyle [[that I loved) in Birmingham; I can in Detroit. Detroit isn't Chicago or NYC or San Fran, no, but after living in Chicago for years, I'm pretty damn satisfied here. It's not the most urban, but it still has a lot of remnants left from its heyday when it was one of the top cities in the country that are still going strong today. If you enjoy your life in Oakland and Philly, you'll be just fine with the level of urban that Detroit supplies. If you've lived in a major city, you get it - sometimes I'm unsure if suburbanites understand what people who are drawn to the city are actually attracted to.

My firm has an office in Birmingham that I sometimes work out of. My in-laws lived in Plymouth and are now in Northville. I have spent a decent amount of time in these areas - they are nice yes, but I'd be miserable if I lived there. Just depends on what you like.

[p69rrh51]

The neighborhoods aren't "urban" of course, but Detroit certainly is. It's about proximity to things a real city offers. Culture, sports, entertainment, dining, diversity of people and cultures, events, etc. Sorry, you don't get those in St. Clair Shores to the extent you do living near downtown Detroit, where I can catch an off-Broadway show at the Fisher or Fox, go to a pro football, baseball or hockey game, see Van Gogh's "Bedroom in Arles" at the DIA on loan from the Louvre, catch a wide variety of local music acts, buy some kiszka from Srodeck's Polish deli in Hamtramck or fresh tortillas from Los Galanes in Mexicantown or fried saganaki in Greektown, or buy my vegetables fresh from the farmer in the largest farmers market in the country at Eastern Market and my meats fresh from the butcher in Gratiot Central Market, attend the Hoedown, Jazzfest, EMF, and Blues Fest, or run into the wide variety of people I've met from all over the country with such differences in opinions and mindsets [[which is extremely hard to find in the suburbs) - I can do all of that within 5 minutes of my house [[maybe 10 min to get to Hamtramk) and a $5-10 cab ride back home after I've had a few drinks at Rodin or Roast or Motor City Wine or Sugar Shack or wherever I go for the night.

Yes, you can drive from the suburbs down to do these things but you don't do them as often when it's such a pain and I like to be out 3-5 nights a week doing these things. That's just what my life is like. If these things are valuable to you - and I get that they aren't to some people - then living in the city, specifically near downtown, is a must. I couldn't replicate my Chicago-lifestyle [[that I loved) in Birmingham; I can in Detroit. Detroit isn't Chicago or NYC or San Fran, no, but after living in Chicago for years, I'm pretty damn satisfied here. It's not the most urban, but it still has a lot of remnants left from its heyday when it was one of the top cities in the country that are still going strong today. If you enjoy your life in Oakland and Philly, you'll be just fine with the level of urban that Detroit supplies. If you've lived in a major city, you get it.

My firm has an office in Birmingham that I sometimes work out of. My in-laws lived in Plymouth and are now in Northville. I have spent a decent amount of time in these areas - they are nice yes, but I'd be miserable if I lived there. Just depends on what you like.

TexasT that also depends on the burb you live in and how much you are willing to travel. I have lived for 51 years on the eastside 75% of that time in Grosse Pointe. What you describe I have been doing since I received my driver's license, and for most of the long time GP residents I know its no big deal to go downtown. In fact many would rather go downtown than to some of the popular burbs. I can also get my feather bowling/Belgian Rabbit/Mussels/Belgian Ale fix at the Cadieux Cafe. The Cafe is walking distance from my home. There are plenty of great places to find food and entertainment all over the metro area.

[Bham1982]

The neighborhoods aren't "urban" of course, but Detroit certainly is. It's about proximity to things a real city offers. Culture, sports, entertainment, dining, diversity of people and cultures, events, etc.

When you use this definition of "urban", then I agree. That's definitely Detroit's appeal. I wouldn't define urban in that manner [[to me, urbanity is related to density, walkability, and certain housing typologies, rather than concentrations of restaurants, sports, or other amenities) but I see what you mean.

I'm still not sure that Detroit offers most of these amenities relative to the suburbs [[culture, yes, sports, yes, dining probably no, diversity definitely no), but I can see the general argument. Using this definition of urban, I do think you run into problems. West Los Angeles would be urban, and downtown Los Angeles probably wouldn't. The Woodward Corridor in Oakland County may be urban, and Northeast or Northwest Detroit probably wouldn't.

I still wish that people wouldn't conflate "urban" with the Detroit issues we frequently discuss, though. An area doesn't have elevated crime because it's urban. Vienna isn't dangerous because it's urban, and Inkster isn't safe because it's suburban. Traditional definitions of urbanity aren't related to the issues that stigmatize Detroit.

[Chicago48]

Ex-Detroiter, now in Chicago for 20 years. Can you get ahold of a RE agent who can show you around the city? Midtown is decent, lots of entertainment, clubs...the Wayne State U and Medical Center are within walking distance of hospitals, the symphony, restaurants.
Other than that try Birmingham, Bloomfield, Royal Oak.

[Johnnny5]

Where is the job you are relocating to? In Detroit proper or the suburbs?

[jmc247]

Where is the job you are relocating to? In Detroit proper or the suburbs?

Hi Johnnny5--it's in the Dearborn area, but what I saw of Dearborn was not very appealing when I interviewed: lots of big roads and nothing much you could walk or bike to; lots of chain restaurants and car dealerships and not a lot of cafes or independent places. So we might live in there for a while if we don't fall in love with something else, but were looking elsewhere to start. This does mean that some places we've heard are nice, like Ann Arbor, Grosse Point, and Birmingham, would make for a pretty long commute.

[Gistok]

Hi Johnnny5--it's in the Dearborn area, but what I saw of Dearborn was not very appealing when I interviewed: lots of big roads and nothing much you could walk or bike to; lots of chain restaurants and car dealerships and not a lot of cafes or independent places. So we might live in there for a while if we don't fall in love with something else, but were looking elsewhere to start. This does mean that some places we've heard are nice, like Ann Arbor, Grosse Point, and Birmingham, would make for a pretty long commute.

Interstingly enough Grosse Pointe isn't all that far away... but it is some distance from a freeway. I live in St.Clair Shores, just north of GP, and even though it's farther... the commute is about the same, since the freeway is nearby. I used to work in Ann Arbor, and Dearborn was always the halfway point of my 1 hour commute.

But you will have a problem in finding a "walkable" area... most that do have one... you pay much more for housing for that convenience.