Kwame doesn't reflect on me as a Detroiter

[Strong]

Some people look at Kwame's story as a reflection on Detroit and Detroiters. I say no that's one man plight and not mine even though I voted for him and know him personally.

[artds]

Yeah, well, the people of Detroit decided to re-elect him in 2005 even amidst a multitude of scandals, so he reflects on somebody. You might be able to disown him personally, but the majority of your neighbors cannot. He wouldn't have stood a chance of re-election in most communities in southeast Michigan or elsewhere, and the rest of us watched in amazement as Detroit deliberately sent a known sleaze who was caught stealing from them back to the City's highest office. Once you buy something, you own it.

[erikd]

Yeah, well, the people of Detroit decided to re-elect him in 2005 even amidst a multitude of scandals, so he reflects on somebody. You might be able to disown him personally, but the majority of your neighbors cannot. He wouldn't have stood a chance of re-election in most communities in southeast Michigan or elsewhere, and the rest of us watched in amazement as Detroit deliberately sent a known sleaze who was caught stealing from them back to the City's highest office. Once you buy something, you own it.

The Kilpatrick scandals in 2005 consisted of the Navigator lease, and the Manoogian Party, which was officially declared by the Republican state attorney general to have "no basis in fact, and was simply an urban legend."

As stated above, Kilpatrick barely won re-election, and it would not have happened without Mike Cox stepping up and declaring that most of the accusations against Kwame were completely false and baseless. Kwame was able to parlay that into a reasonable scenario where the navigator lease was just a paperwork oversight that was blown out of proportion by the same people who created an elaborate lie about a party that never happened.

[Downtown Lady]

The Kilpatrick scandals in 2005 consisted of the Navigator lease, and the Manoogian Party, which was officially declared by the Republican state attorney general to have "no basis in fact, and was simply an urban legend."

Prior to the 2005 election, one other scandal had come to light – I remember clearly that it was before the election because it specifically reinforced my decision not to vote for him.

This had to do with a foundation that he had started [[not the Civic Fund) to raise money for children, and even though hundreds of thousands had been raised, only a small portion [[something like 10%?) went to the intended purpose, while the rest went to the salaries of the employees of the foundation – his sister, his wife and Derrick Miller’s wife.

Sorry that I don’t have the specific details, but it was covered in the Free Press at the time. At that point not a lot had been brought to light, but this was the beginning of the big revelations and it was definitely before the 2005 election.

[erikd]

Yeah, well, the people of Detroit decided to re-elect him in 2005 even amidst a multitude of scandals, so he reflects on somebody. You might be able to disown him personally, but the majority of your neighbors cannot. He wouldn't have stood a chance of re-election in most communities in southeast Michigan or elsewhere, and the rest of us watched in amazement as Detroit deliberately sent a known sleaze who was caught stealing from them back to the City's highest office. Once you buy something, you own it.

The rest of America has it all over us when it comes to crooked leaders. Macomb County Sheriff Hackel was convicted of rape in April 2000, and his son was elected to replace him that November.

After Kwame was brought up on charges, Detroiters had the common sense to vote his mother out of office. What with the apple and tree and all.

And since we are discussing how the stupid Detroiters re-elected Kwame with 53% of the vote, we should also talk about the incredibly stupid 61% of Americans who re-elected Richard Nixon in a LANDSLIDE in 1972.

I think we should also discuss how 4 of the last 7 GOVERNORS of ILLINOIS were sent to prison.

But no, never mind all of those facts. Corruption only happens in Detroit. You know, because of the coloreds, and how "those people" like to elect criminals. Which white people would never do, except when it happens all the time.

[Zacha341]

Yep. Outstanding post!

...But no, never mind all of those facts. Corruption only happens in Detroit. You know, because of the coloreds, and how "those people" like to elect criminals. Which white people would never do, except when it happens all the time.

[Scottathew]

The rest of America has it all over us when it comes to crooked leaders. Macomb County Sheriff Hackel was convicted of rape in April 2000, and his son was elected to replace him that November.

I had no idea of that! I moved to Macomb County in 2006.

William Hackel served 3 years of his 15 year sentence. Just plain disgusting for a man that was convicted of rape both oral and intercourse.

[313WX]

Get over it artds. He won by a razor-thin margin [[51% to 49%, something like that). FAct of the matter is he did not represent ALL Detroiters and he most certainly didn't represent me [[only in title).

The guy's in jail for a long time now. Time to move on.

Besides, Kwame not being reelected may have over delayed Detroit's inevitable insolvency for another year or two.

[artds]

Get over it artds. He won by a razor-thin margin [[51% to 49%, something like that). FAct of the matter is he did not represent ALL Detroiters and he most certainly didn't represent me [[only in title).

The guy's in jail for a long time now. Time to move on.

Besides, Kwame not being reelected may have over delayed Detroit's inevitable insolvency for another year or two.

I never said he represented ALL Detroiters. I said he represented a MAJORITY of Detroiters. Last time I checked, 51% constituted a majority, so I'm on pretty solid ground here. And btw, he won by a margin of 53-47%, not 51-49%.

[Zacha341]

I voted for him the first time but knew better than to do so the second. No, he does not reflect me. I was busy going on about my life when some continued to defend him, soon some of the die-hard defenders began to wain. And those invitations to the hard court room seats really wore the defense thin....

Still the machinations, twists and turns some people took to justify and defend Kilpartrick taught me some things I will reference when I see it play out in other settings.

[401don]

All leaders reflect on their countries. You take the good with the bad. You don't think Hitler reflected on Germany just a little?

[canuck]

All leaders reflect on their countries. You take the good with the bad. You don't think Hitler reflected on Germany just a little?

I totally agree with you there. Detroit is not alone in this, and yet, it does reflect poorly on our judgement when we cant read the signals, ignore them, put our trust in leaders blindly because we may want to avoid the discomfort of another kind of leadership...

The ethnic or racial divisiveness in the region brought on a self-flagellating kind of culture on whites and blacks alike. The negativity is due to a lack of cohesiveness, a lack of positive friction or contact between communities if you will.

Either way, a lot of poor choices have been made in the past, it is time for the EFM to do his job correctly, and maybe the city can get back to business with fewer dodgey items on its books, and a cleaner slate on which to write history.

I also feel strongly about the come back of downtown in the overall chance of a healthy future for South East Michigan; the polite way of saying Metro Detroit.
If business and political leaders recognize the business district as its heart, and do what needs to be done to further its success, then the city will rebound because its heart will beat again. If retail, residences and offices are on the upside, then we can pretty much envisage a reconstruction of the central districts from the core. Think of Dresden; it got over Hitler.

[mwilbert]

Some people look at Kwame's story as a reflection on Detroit and Detroiters. I say no that's one man plight and not mine even though I voted for him and know him personally.

If you voted for him, especially the second time, I would say it reflects on your judgement, and even if you didn't, I think it reflects on you as a Detroiter. I think the fact the George W. Bush was elected in 2004 reflects badly on me as an American, and I didn't vote for him.

It may not be logical, but people can get credit or blame for the actions of other people in groups that they are associated with. It is just the way the human mind works.

[313WX]

If you voted for him, especially the second time, I would say it reflects on your judgement, and even if you didn't, I think it reflects on you as a Detroiter. I think the fact the George W. Bush was elected in 2004 reflects badly on me as an American, and I didn't vote for him.

It may not be logical, but people can get credit or blame for the actions of other people in groups that they are associated with. It is just the way the human mind works.

I shouldn't have to take the responsibility for decisions others make if I can't control them.

[mwilbert]

I don't think the claim is that you are responsible. The claim is that perceptions about you are likely to be affected by it. It makes Detroiters as a group look worse [[as it should) and you are presumptively associated with that group. But obviously assigning individual responsibility to group actions requires more than that.

[iheartthed]

If you voted for him, especially the second time, I would say it reflects on your judgement, and even if you didn't, I think it reflects on you as a Detroiter. I think the fact the George W. Bush was elected in 2004 reflects badly on me as an American, and I didn't vote for him.

It may not be logical, but people can get credit or blame for the actions of other people in groups that they are associated with. It is just the way the human mind works.

I don't think that people hold GWB against Americans in the same way as Kwame is held against Detroiters. There quite obviously is a racial element to it. For instance, white Americans voted for George Bush and black Americans voted against Bush. Detroiters voted against Bush. Whose policies were more destructive? Bush or Kilpatrick?

[mwilbert]

I don't think that people hold GWB against Americans in the same way as Kwame is held against Detroiters.

Well, if the people you are talking about are Americans, I think you are right, but I believe that is because they are in the group [[Americans), and people inside a group make more distinctions amongst its members than people outside it looking in. I think if you talked to people in other countries you might get a different response.

[antongast]

I don't think that people hold GWB against Americans in the same way as Kwame is held against Detroiters. There quite obviously is a racial element to it. For instance, white Americans voted for George Bush and black Americans voted against Bush. Detroiters voted against Bush. Whose policies were more destructive? Bush or Kilpatrick?

Similarly, I think white suburbanites tend to give themselves too much credit for "seeing through" Kilpatrick from the beginning. There are a lot of people in this region who spent his first term mocking his name and his fashion sense who were unsurprised when his behavior played right into their prejudices, and who think that makes them exceptionally astute political observers and judges of character.

[MidTownMs]

Similarly, I think white suburbanites tend to give themselves too much credit for "seeing through" Kilpatrick from the beginning. There are a lot of people in this region who spent his first term mocking his name and his fashion sense who were unsurprised when his behavior played right into their prejudices, and who think that makes them exceptionally astute political observers and judges of character.

I am not white or a suburbanite. Both times when KK ran for mayor I did not vote for him. I met him at a party at his mother's headquarters downtown. He had just announced he was going to be the next mayor of Detroit. I told my mother, who was also there, he looked "shady" and I would not vote for him.

[coracle]

Similarly, I think white suburbanites tend to give themselves too much credit for "seeing through" Kilpatrick from the beginning. There are a lot of people in this region who spent his first term mocking his name and his fashion sense who were unsurprised when his behavior played right into their prejudices, and who think that makes them exceptionally astute political observers and judges of character.

No matter what color they are, or where they live, or what prejudices they have, or how good they can judge character, or what lousy fashion sense they have, anybody with a brain larger than a pea could have predicted a bad outcome the second time around. Having said that I think in true American fashion the poor guy will be crucified in the end far beyond what he deserves. The people that voted for him the second time enabled him and share the responsibility. [[but I think he reflects directly on Strong)

[iheartthed]

Well, if the people you are talking about are Americans, I think you are right, but I believe that is because they are in the group [[Americans), and people inside a group make more distinctions amongst its members than people outside it looking in. I think if you talked to people in other countries you might get a different response.

I don't entirely agree. I think there is also a media component to it as well. The media narrative is tailored to be more nuanced in assessing the image of the dominant class [[i.e. white people). Plenty of foreigners knew the distinction between red states and blue states. Some probably knew it better than they understood the political process in their own country. However, there was largely no nuanced analysis of Kwame Kilpatrick's reelection or any election in Detroit. The headline was basically "dumb Detroiters re-elect crook".

Then you can look at it from the angle of "forgiveness". Kwame Kilpatrick has been out of office longer than Bush. Bush is largely unspoken of, even by international media, and despite the fact that we're very much still dealing with political fallout from his policies. Detroit voters elected the suburban favorite [[Bing) yet they still are chastised about Kilpatrick. American voters elected the international favorite [[Obama) and everyone has pretty much forgotten that the guy from Texas even exists.

To take that a degree further, how often do people still bring up Coleman Young? The man has been dead for nearly as long as he was Detroit's mayor. But the way he's still talked about you would think he was mayor less than five years ago. Can anyone name who was Michigan's governor when Young was elected? Does anyone realize that two governors have left office since he died?

[detmsp]

Kwame Kilpatrick has been out of office longer than Bush. Bush is largely unspoken of, even by international media, and despite the fact that we're very much still dealing with political fallout from his policies. Detroit voters elected the suburban favorite [[Bing) yet they still are chastised about Kilpatrick. American voters elected the international favorite [[Obama) and everyone has pretty much forgotten that the guy from Texas even exists.

You really don't get why the media might be paying more attention to Kwame than Bush? Kwame just got convicted of numerous crimes in federal court. Bush is sitting at home on his couch. Which do you think makes a more interesting piece of news?

[Wesley Mouch]

I don't think that people hold GWB against Americans in the same way as Kwame is held against Detroiters. There quite obviously is a racial element to it. For instance, white Americans voted for George Bush and black Americans voted against Bush. Detroiters voted against Bush. Whose policies were more destructive? Bush or Kilpatrick?

I don't see that Bush's policies were destructive, but for this post, let's accept it as fact.

For the nation, Bush. For Detroit, Kilpatrick.

Detroit's slide would have been nearly the same with Gore or Kerry at the national helm.

But switch old Kwame for Hendrick, Hill or most anyone, and things would likely have been better. The only question is how much better. Enough? Probably not. Better? Sure.

[Gistok]

I don't see that Bush's policies were destructive, but for this post, let's accept it as fact.

Wait.... so you think that 1 trillion dollars spent on Iraq, 4,409 US lives and 32,000 injured was not destructive?? A trillion is a thousand billions... just think of what a fraction of that could do right now in fixing the infrastructure of this country....

[Wesley Mouch]

Wait.... so you think that 1 trillion dollars spent on Iraq, 4,409 US lives and 32,000 injured was not destructive?? A trillion is a thousand billions... just think of what a fraction of that could do right now in fixing the infrastructure of this country....

Gistok. I don't frame the debate in that manner. War is ugly. And Bush's stupidity in its prosecution was ugly. All war is ugly.

The problems of urban American are also ugly, but in a completely different way. I think we've wasted 1 trillion in urban policy, killed way more than 4,409 through corruption and municipal cronyism, and we've injured far more than 32,000 through bad drug policy in the US -- taking all cities into account.

While neither Bush nor Kwame were great for their constituencies, Kwame wins the harm to Detroit award.