Support Gay Marriage? Then Skip Communion Says Detroit Archbishop and Canon Lawyer

[Zozo]

The Golden Rule tends to do the trick.

That's a rather childish moral position.

[Zozo]

I was born and raised Catholic, spent 11 years being taught by nuns and generally distrust the hierarchy of the church in recent years. I spent a lot of time in churches, singing in choirs and on my knees praying over the years, but I can't get past what the church has condoned when it comes to pedophiles, Nazis and other poor choices.
And now, I will follow my own advice and get back to the question of gay marriage. The church has no standing in government to offer an opinion as to whether or not it should be legal; they do have standing to tell The Faithful what it is that they approve of.

The Catholic Church and Nazis?

[EastsideAl]

Since you are an atheist, can you explain how atheists make moral decisions? For example, can you explain ethically if things like racism, pedophilia, or sodomy are morally right or wrong?

This type of question is wholly insulting to non-believers. I would do just as well to ask you why you need to depend on an unseen supernatural imaginary friend and a book of bronze age fables [[and, in the case of Catholics, an old celibate man in a dress in Rome) to tell you right from wrong.

Anyway, I would hardly use the history of the Roman Catholic church, or Christianity in general for that matter, as any font of guidance on the morality of racism, pedophilia, or sodomy.

[old guy]

This type of question is wholly insulting to non-believers. I would do just as well to ask you why you need to depend on an unseen supernatural imaginary friend and a book of bronze age fables [[and, in the case of Catholics, an old celibate man in a dress in Rome) to tell you right from wrong.

Anyway, I would hardly use the history of the Roman Catholic church, or Christianity in general for that matter, as any font of guidance on the morality of racism, pedophilia, or sodomy.

Well stated. I find Zozo's question hard to fathom.

[jackie5275]

Here we go again. Trying to hide bigotry by confusing the issue further.

You are talking about two different issues, none of which are relevant to the discussion. The first is the Catholic Sacrament of Marriage [[which is obviously considered valid in the Church, and where you need two witnesses and the Catholic ceremony).

The second is the Catholic position on Christian or other religious marriage outside of the Catholic Church [[which is considered valid on a case-by-case basis but is NOT a sacrament and for which the Church does NOT have a uniform position; there is no Jew- yes, Mormon- no, or anything like that).

The third issue [[and the only relevant one as it pertains to the same-sex marriage debate) is that of civil law. The Catholic church does NOT recognize civil marriage for ANYONE. Therefore, they have no standing in any debate on how civil authorities grant contractural rights for consenting adults. It isn't marriage to begin with [[per Catholic edict).

So, again, why is the Catholic church entering the discussion on this civil matter? It has no relevance to their formal definition of marriage.

First of all, I'm not a bigot. Nor am I trying to hide any alleged bigotry you think I have. Second, I was only trying to CORRECT you. You stated in earlier posts that a marriage in a non-Catholic church is viewed by the Catholic Church as non-existent. I corrected you by saying the Church does recognize a marriage in a non-Catholic church as being a legitimate marriage & how it does that. You then do some back pedalling of your own in this post by repeating me in your own words. You should attend some RCIA classes to get a refresher on where the Church stands with marriage in & out of the Church. Also, for your oft repeated question as to why this is relevant to the Church, please see my post #111 for my answer to that question.

[Bham1982]

First of all, I'm not a bigot. Nor am I trying to hide any alleged bigotry you think I have.

Then what is your reasoning for support of a religious entity interfering in civil contracts? It has nothing to do with marriage, as it isn't marriage according to the Church.

Second, I was only trying to CORRECT you. You stated in earlier posts that a marriage in a non-Catholic church is viewed by the Catholic Church as non-existent. I corrected you by saying the Church does recognize a marriage in a non-Catholic church as being a legitimate marriage & how it does that.

No, this is wrong. There is no blanket policy of Catholic recognition of non-Catholic marriages. Generally speaking, they aren't recognized. They are never, ever recognized for the Sacrament of Marriage, which is what we were discussing.

You then do some back pedalling of your own in this post by repeating me in your own words. You should attend some RCIA classes to get a refresher on where the Church stands with marriage in & out of the Church. Also, for your oft repeated question as to why this is relevant to the Church, please see my post #111 for my answer to that question.

Well since you're the Catholic authority, why don't you show me some cites for your crazy ideas. Please show me some evidence that the Catholic church has an official policy of recognizing marriages outside the Catholic church.

And no, you don't answer anything in Post 111. You claim that changes to civil law will somehow compel the Catholic church to marry gay couples, which is completely nonsensical. Does civil law currently force the Catholic church to marry people it doesn't want to marry? Of course not.

[jackie5275]

Then what is your reasoning for support of a religious entity interfering in civil contracts? It has nothing to do with marriage, as it isn't marriage according to the Church.

I never indicated I support this or not. I don't know where or how you jumped to this conclusion. The Church isn't interfering with it. There is just one archbishop, who happens to be the one in our area, who is saying that if you support gay marriage, you should refrain from taking Communion. There has been no direct action by the Church as a whole to interfere with it, only reject it.

QUOTE=Bham1982;380310]
No, this is wrong. There is no blanket policy of Catholic recognition of non-Catholic marriages. Generally speaking, they aren't recognized. They are never, ever recognized for the Sacrament of Marriage, which is what we were discussing.



Well since you're the Catholic authority, why don't you show me some cites for your crazy ideas. Please show me some evidence that the Catholic church has an official policy of recognizing marriages outside the Catholic church.
[/QUOTE]

Read Canon Law 1124-1129 and the Apostolic Letter of Pope Paul 6th from October, 1970 where they address marriages outside of the Catholic Church. If that doesn't convince you then you provide to me the cite where there is a blanket policy that says the Church doesn't recognize them.

[noise]

That's a rather childish moral position.

Perhaps, but it sure beats a fairy tale full of intolerance.

[noise]

Well stated. I find Zozo's question hard to fathom.

It's based on a false and flawed belief that morality was spawned as edict.

[TheUsualSuspect]

I suppose it was inevitable that what had been a fairly civil and tolerant discussion would degrade. I had enjoyed the discourse up until this last page.

The religion bone is a sensitive one.

Believer or non-believer...I wish you all peace.

C

[poobert]

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...=2013304240117

It makes me wonder what the hell I'm still doing in the Catholic Church when I agree with the Episcopalian bishop.

[sumas]

I certainly support gay couples to have equal benefits and rights.

As to the Catholic church, my husband and I have now been married 38 going on 39 years and yes priests contend we are not married in the eyes of god. I am amused since apparently our kids are bastards.

[noise]

I suppose it was inevitable that what had been a fairly civil and tolerant discussion would degrade. I had enjoyed the discourse up until this last page.

The religion bone is a sensitive one.

Believer or non-believer...I wish you all peace.

C

It's a difficult situation in that religion often tries to dictate, through the government & law, what everyone else should do and/or think. On the other hand, at least from an atheists' perspective, I don't care what you do. If you don't want an abortion or a gay marriage, don't get one. But your religion certainly shouldn't do anything to affect me.

As such, hard feelings are difficult to avoid.

[EastsideAl]

If you don't want an abortion or a gay marriage, don't get one.

This is really the bottom line, and the reason why these discussions tend to degenerate. I think it's really hard for the rest of us to understand why this simple concept seems so damn difficult for Catholics and evangelical Christians.

And, although I admit that I've never understood their position on matters of civil law in a free and pluralistic society, I guess from their perspective it's hard for them to understand why it isn't self-evident to the rest of us that we should bend to their superior God-informed will on matters of "morality".

[belleislerunner]

I don't understand what all the fuss is about. A religious organization, or any organization, has the ability to choose its values and beliefs. We, as citizens, have the right to join any organization we choose. If, over time, we no longer agree with the views/beliefs of an organization, we have the right/option to leave and join an organization that supports our views. To censor or attempt to villify any organization for views that differ from one's own is just indicating you don't believe in freedom of speech/expression.

[Bham1982]

ITo censor or attempt to villify any organization for views that differ from one's own is just indicating you don't believe in freedom of speech/expression.

Wait, so criticism of the Catholic church when they try and impose their will on civil law "means you don't believe in freedom of speech/expression"? Huh?

To me, that is the embodiment of "freedom of speech/expression". The Catholic Church is trying to intrude upon civil law, and people are speaking up.

They're exercising their free speech, and trying to keep civil institutions separate from the duplicitious whims of religious authorities. Most Catholics I know don't agree with the official Church position, and I assume the vast majority of non-Catholics feel the same.

It has nothing to do with gay marriage and everything to do with intrusion on the civil matters of no relevance to the church or the Catholic sacrament of marriage.

[TheUsualSuspect]

On the other hand, at least from an atheists' perspective, I don't care what you do. If you don't want an abortion or a gay marriage, don't get one. But your religion certainly shouldn't do anything to affect me.

I've enjoyed reading you Noise, and I appreciate your perspective.

I've purposefully avoided avoided mention of pro-choice/pro-life issue in this thread knowing how passionate those discussions can become.

Let me step into something that I'll probably later regret, but know that it's simply my opinion and my observation. You're as unlikely to change my opinion as I am to change yours.

Even without my catholic contamination, my engineering contamination leads me to believe, and believe deeply, that life begins at conception. From where I sit, abortion is the termination of a life. It may not be a viable, self-sustaining life, but it's life and a gift.

For a variety of reasons, some medical, some financial, some out of pure convenience, the life can be legally terminated. Ended with what appears to me to be a pretty brutal medical procedure.

But the matter was addressed and determined in the courts. We've legalized what in the minds of some, myself included, is murder.

We watched in horror as a deranged teenager methodically slaughtered a school full of kindergarteners. We continue to watch closer to home in Detroit as kids are killed for their clothes, their jackets, their freaking cell phones.

And we ask ourselves why.

IMO, the medical procedure known as abortion has eroded the appreciation for the human life. If potential mothers and their doctors can extinguish life in numbers which dwarf what we see in the daily newspaper...why does it surprise and outrage us when a screwed up kid with a gun decides to take a few more in an elementary school?

The child victims managed to make it out the body of their mother, and were cared for such that they breathed air for 4 or 5 years.

We grieve and feel outrage for them because they were like us. Air-breathers, capable of lifting a fork to feed themselves.

Inside the mothers womb, in a place which should be revered as sacred...or at least safe, they are a piece of tissue to be surgically terminated.

We've become so cerebral, so intelligent, so sophisticated as a species that we've created a legalized mechanism for the termination of our own progeny. Then we stare in amazement and ask ourselves "how can this happen" when another human with a gun, or with a bomb takes it upon themselves to do something I view as very similar.

I HAVE to believe in God, if only to hope for an explanation or an understanding of why these things happen, when my time on earth is done.

[belleislerunner]

I'm all about being allowed to criticize views. Like Voltaire stated "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend till my death your right to state it."

I realize you may not agree with the church's views on any given topic. But will you defend their right to hold those views?

[southen]

I've enjoyed reading you Noise, and I appreciate your perspective.

I've purposefully avoided avoided mention of pro-choice/pro-life issue in this thread knowing how passionate those discussions can become.

Let me step into something that I'll probably later regret, but know that it's simply my opinion and my observation. You're as unlikely to change my opinion as I am to change yours.

Even without my catholic contamination, my engineering contamination leads me to believe, and believe deeply, that life begins at conception. From where I sit, abortion is the termination of a life. It may not be a viable, self-sustaining life, but it's life and a gift.

For a variety of reasons, some medical, some financial, some out of pure convenience, the life can be legally terminated. Ended with what appears to me to be a pretty brutal medical procedure.

But the matter was addressed and determined in the courts. We've legalized what in the minds of some, myself included, is murder.

We watched in horror as a deranged teenager methodically slaughtered a school full of kindergarteners. We continue to watch closer to home in Detroit as kids are killed for their clothes, their jackets, their freaking cell phones.

And we ask ourselves why.

IMO, the medical procedure known as abortion has eroded the appreciation for the human life. If potential mothers and their doctors can extinguish life in numbers which dwarf what we see in the daily newspaper...why does it surprise and outrage us when a screwed up kid with a gun decides to take a few more in an elementary school?

The child victims managed to make it out the body of their mother, and were cared for such that they breathed air for 4 or 5 years.

We grieve and feel outrage for them because they were like us. Air-breathers, capable of lifting a fork to feed themselves.

Inside the mothers womb, in a place which should be revered as sacred...or at least safe, they are a piece of tissue to be surgically terminated.

We've become so cerebral, so intelligent, so sophisticated as a species that we've created a legalized mechanism for the termination of our own progeny. Then we stare in amazement and ask ourselves "how can this happen" when another human with a gun, or with a bomb takes it upon themselves to do something I view as very similar.

I HAVE to believe in God, if only to hope for an explanation or an understanding of why these things happen, when my time on earth is done.

we should ban guys from masturbating then... just think of how many potential lives are killed there on a daily basis. holy cow.

you dont HAVE to believe in god. you choose to because the unknown clearly worries you and you cant grasp a world based on chance and randomness. not everything happens for a reason. people dying of gruesome deaths serves no purpose and i shake my head every time someone comments on a mass shooting by saying "god had a plan" for the victims. to be perfectly honest, any god that allows innocent young kids to die horrible deaths doesnt deserve my respect.

religion and faith should be a very personal thing. im happy to discuss why im an atheist, but you will never find me out there saying everyone should be or taking away the freedoms of others based on the teachings of ancient texts. to paraphrase bill maher. "do we hold onto anything from the bronze age like we do religion?"

[TheUsualSuspect]

See southen, the masturbation analogy doesn't fit. The male sperm is 1/2 of the equation. I view the fertilized egg as as the life, not a potential life. It's the point at which the two cells, sperm and egg, meet and mingle that I call life.

Science and humanity mostly agrees, shifting the line 6 months into the 9 month gestation period, when the cellular body is largely developed and capable of living outside the womb viably. Before that period, it's a mass of cells and unprotected, after that period...it's darn near a baby. We place the line where we are comfortable placing the line.

I guess you are right though. I do CHOOSE to belief in God. The more I see the world through scientific eyes, the more architecture and design, and order I see.

You might remember the concept of entropy. Left by themselves, things tend to randomness and disorder, rather than to order. The earth, it's place in the solar system, the protective atmosphere, water, and the variety of species which have thrived on her...well...I don't see how that can possibly have happened randomly. Too many pieces fit together perfectly to have been a happy accident.

I don't argue well enough to sway formed opinions, so I just say what I believe.

I observe, I ask questions, I reason and I look for answers where they are none. I raised my kids to do the same, and they have the same problem with church and religion as many of you. They've got the same arguments [["How can God let this or that happen?).

I've got far more questions than I have answers.

[EastsideAl]

I understand the argument of the anti- folks in the abortion debate. Simply put, they believe that someone [[the fetus) is being hurt, and that the rights of others do not outweigh that perceived injury. I may disagree, and disagree vehemently, but at least their position makes logical sense.

The position of the Catholic church and others on the gay marriage issue, however, make no logical sense to me at all. How in the world does it affect Catholics, any other religion, or the rights of anyone else, if, say, 2 non-religious women are married in a civil ceremony? And why the big effort to tell the rest of us non-Catholics what we should believe and who non-Catholics should love or have sexual relations with?

Still, this can be ignored by most of us. But even worse, and with much deeper implications for civil society and the church's role within it, is the sort of bullying and intimidation now being used by the archbishop and the church hierarchy against free expression, people's consciences, and our pluralistic society in order to silence their own members in their role as citizens.

And yet they wonder why people are leaving their organization in droves...

[TheUsualSuspect]

I understand the argument of the anti- folks in the abortion debate. Simply put, they believe that someone [[the fetus) is being hurt, and that the rights of others do not outweigh that perceived injury.
And yet they wonder why people are leaving their organization in droves...

Holy smokes Al..."hurt" and "injury" to the fetus? Those are awfully gentle words to describe what really happens during the medical procedure.

I don't think they wonder why people leave. Our modern western culture has changed how we view church and what we expect from it.

The Catholic church doesn't exist to please the masses [[clearly). She is slow to change, which is sometimes a blessing and sometimes a curse.

[noise]

I've enjoyed reading you Noise, and I appreciate your perspective.

I've purposefully avoided avoided mention of pro-choice/pro-life issue in this thread knowing how passionate those discussions can become.

Let me step into something that I'll probably later regret, but know that it's simply my opinion and my observation. You're as unlikely to change my opinion as I am to change yours.

Even without my catholic contamination, my engineering contamination leads me to believe, and believe deeply, that life begins at conception. From where I sit, abortion is the termination of a life. It may not be a viable, self-sustaining life, but it's life and a gift.

For a variety of reasons, some medical, some financial, some out of pure convenience, the life can be legally terminated. Ended with what appears to me to be a pretty brutal medical procedure.

But the matter was addressed and determined in the courts. We've legalized what in the minds of some, myself included, is murder.

We watched in horror as a deranged teenager methodically slaughtered a school full of kindergarteners. We continue to watch closer to home in Detroit as kids are killed for their clothes, their jackets, their freaking cell phones.

And we ask ourselves why.

IMO, the medical procedure known as abortion has eroded the appreciation for the human life. If potential mothers and their doctors can extinguish life in numbers which dwarf what we see in the daily newspaper...why does it surprise and outrage us when a screwed up kid with a gun decides to take a few more in an elementary school?

The child victims managed to make it out the body of their mother, and were cared for such that they breathed air for 4 or 5 years.

We grieve and feel outrage for them because they were like us. Air-breathers, capable of lifting a fork to feed themselves.

Inside the mothers womb, in a place which should be revered as sacred...or at least safe, they are a piece of tissue to be surgically terminated.

We've become so cerebral, so intelligent, so sophisticated as a species that we've created a legalized mechanism for the termination of our own progeny. Then we stare in amazement and ask ourselves "how can this happen" when another human with a gun, or with a bomb takes it upon themselves to do something I view as very similar.

I HAVE to believe in God, if only to hope for an explanation or an understanding of why these things happen, when my time on earth is done.

Thank you and likewise. While we may not agree, at least we can respect the differing opinion.

Apologies for the brief response. It's late and I don't want to type something regretful.

[noise]

I'm all about being allowed to criticize views. Like Voltaire stated "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend till my death your right to state it."

I realize you may not agree with the church's views on any given topic. But will you defend their right to hold those views?

I think the problem is that no church has kept their views within their own doors. Conceptually, I agree with what you've asked.

[southen]

See southen, the masturbation analogy doesn't fit. The male sperm is 1/2 of the equation. I view the fertilized egg as as the life, not a potential life. It's the point at which the two cells, sperm and egg, meet and mingle that I call life.

Science and humanity mostly agrees, shifting the line 6 months into the 9 month gestation period, when the cellular body is largely developed and capable of living outside the womb viably. Before that period, it's a mass of cells and unprotected, after that period...it's darn near a baby. We place the line where we are comfortable placing the line.

I guess you are right though. I do CHOOSE to belief in God. The more I see the world through scientific eyes, the more architecture and design, and order I see.

You might remember the concept of entropy. Left by themselves, things tend to randomness and disorder, rather than to order. The earth, it's place in the solar system, the protective atmosphere, water, and the variety of species which have thrived on her...well...I don't see how that can possibly have happened randomly. Too many pieces fit together perfectly to have been a happy accident.

I don't argue well enough to sway formed opinions, so I just say what I believe.

I observe, I ask questions, I reason and I look for answers where they are none. I raised my kids to do the same, and they have the same problem with church and religion as many of you. They've got the same arguments [["How can God let this or that happen?).

I've got far more questions than I have answers.

the only problem is that i view the sperm as life and because of that im going to try and dictate what everyone else can do with their sperm. the exception of course will be severe blue balls... do you at all see what im trying to get at? this life you are protecting is still part of the woman's body and couldnt live on its own. it is not your place or the place of any organization to tell her what she can or cannot do to her body just because you dont like it. i dont like abortion, i think it should be very rare, but who am i to tell someone they cant get one? i have enough respect for others on the issue to allow them to make their own decisions and now have my personal faith dictate what everyone else does.

are you implying that through architecture and design, as well as other manmade things im assuming, you see order, thus an influence from god? does god also get some credit for the crappy things or is that "just a part of his plan"?

so if there is life on other planets, microscopic life, is that god as well or some amount of truth to earth just having the right mix of things for life to form? since you are bringing up science i suppose i have to ask if you believe in evolution, or is it only certain aspects of science that you adhere to?

answers are out there. i find many people dive deeper into religion when they dont like the answer to their question. its far easier to grasp and get through life if you think there is a plan for you and an afterlife than it is to think that this is it and in the end you are worm food. i think it would be fantastic if there was a heaven, but ive asked plenty of questions as well and came up with logical, not faith based, answers.