Support Gay Marriage? Then Skip Communion Says Detroit Archbishop and Canon Lawyer

[Lowell]

The Detroit Roman Catholic hierarchy has vocally injected itself into the gay marriage issue. According to their statement, Catholics who simply express support for gay marriage [thinking not doing] and took communion were likened to perjurers by the archbishop.

A Detroit professor and legal adviser to the Vatican [Edward Peters] says Catholics who promote gay marriage should not try to receive holy Communion, a key part of Catholic identity.

And the archbishop of Detroit, Allen Vigneron, said Sunday that Catholics who receive Communion while advocating gay marriage would "logically bring shame for a double-dealing that is not unlike perjury."
Link to Freep article

Peters went on to say, "Catholics who promote 'same-sex marriage' act contrary to" Catholic law "and should not approach for holy Communion," he wrote. "They also risk having holy Communion withheld from them ... being rebuked and/or being sanctioned."

Peters has previously said Catholic liberal Democrats like Gov. Cuomo of New York and House Minority leader Nancy Pelosi should be denied Communion because of their statements and positions seemingly taking a partisan political stance generally eschewed by the church.

I wonder if they are equally vocal in the many scandals in which the church is awash.

[Bham1982]

The Detroit Roman Catholic hierarchy has vocally injected itself into the gay marriage issue. According to their statement, Catholics who just support gay marriage [thinking not doing] and took communion were likened to perjurers by the archbishop.

As a Catholic, I don't understand these ridiculous "leaders" and their moronic opinions. It has nothing to do with Catholic teachings, and everything to do with bigotry.

Do they not see the distinction between civil recognition of marriage and religious ceremony? One can support equal rights for all under the law [[legalizing gay marriages in the civil realm), while maintaining whatever age-old standard in religious ceremonies.

The church is under no threat from gay marriage. On the other hand, they risk being thrown in the dustbin of history if they keep up this bigotry, by interjecting themseleves into civil matters of no relevance to the Church.

I support gay marriage 100% and will continue to receive communion, with a clear conscience. The issue of equal rights under the law is nonnegotiable in a civil society.

[bailey]

As a Catholic, I don't understand these ridiculous "leaders" and their moronic opinions. It has nothing to do with Catholic teachings, and everything to do with bigotry.

Do they not see the distinction between civil recognition of marriage and religious ceremony? One can support equal rights for all under the law [[legalizing gay marriages in the civil realm), while maintaining whatever age-old standard in religious ceremonies.

The church is under no threat from gay marriage. On the other hand, they risk being thrown in the dustbin of history if they keep up this bigotry, by interjecting themseleves into civil matters of no relevance to the Church.

I support gay marriage 100% and will continue to receive communion, with a clear conscience. The issue of equal rights under the law is nonnegotiable in a civil society.

I think you're missing the point of the argument, if I understand it correctly, it boils down to this.... one who claims to be catholic can not, in any fashion, support SSM.

Although I disagree with the position, I see the point. If the catholic church says gay=bad in any and all context, then yes, it's a bit like perjury to come in take communion. If you're going to have standards, what good is it not to uphold them?

Frankly, I'd like to see the church affirm and amplify this message nationwide and from every pulpit. It'll make their slide into irrelevance that much quicker.

[Bham1982]

Although I disagree with the position, I see the point. If the catholic church says gay=bad in any and all context, then yes, it's a bit like perjury to come in take communion. If you're going to have standards, what good is it not to uphold them?

To me, I still see a big distinction here, and don't understand the official Catholic position.

Even if we were to all agree that gay="bad", then I still don't see the argument against CIVIL recognition of marriage. Marriage is a contract, and this provides gay couples with the same contractural benefits as everyone else, regardless of their relative "sinfullness".

I don't see the contradition inherent in supporting equal rights for all under civil law, while denying a certain class of people certain benefits under religious law.

[bailey]

I don't see the contradition inherent in supporting equal rights for all under civil law, while denying a certain class of people certain benefits under religious law.

the problem being that the catholic church does not recognize ssm as an "equal right" in any context. That is, of course, the church's right. It's also the church's right to deny the communion to those that disagree. Again, I hope they push this measure loudly and follow through on the threat.

[iheartthed]

I think you're missing the point of the argument, if I understand it correctly, it boils down to this.... one who claims to be catholic can not, in any fashion, support SSM.

I'm not Catholic, but does the church deny communion to everyone who supports something that they perceive as sin? Like abortion rights? And divorce laws?

[DetroitPlanner]

I'm not Catholic, but does the church deny communion to everyone who supports something that they perceive as sin? Like abortion rights? And divorce laws?

They won't deny, but you're supposed to abstain due to your moral conscience. What is bizarre about this is that many cases the church takes a 'line drawn in the sand' approach that is really not needed or is not supported by their own doctrine [[or changes doctrine to fit its own justifications). The same thing was going to happen with the whole mess with 'Obamacare' and how the church run hospitals wanted to continue to suckle at the govt you know what but wanted to do their own thing.

Yes the church wanted to take the position that this law, which helps the poor and those who cannot get medical insurance, was a bad thing.

[bailey]

I'm not Catholic, but does the church deny communion to everyone who supports something that they perceive as sin? Like abortion rights? And divorce laws?

Yes there have been similar calls in the past for denial of communion to pro choice politicians and parishioners. Just about every major election year someone will spout off about it. Divorce? not so much.

Roman Catholic Bishop Michael Sheridan of Colorado Springs, who holds a Doctorate in Sacred Theology from the Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas in Rome, says that Vice President Joe Biden should know that he ought not to receive communion.

Bishop Sheridan made the point in an interview he did in October with columnist Daniel Cole of The Colorado Springs Gazette.
.....
[Sheridan] made national headlines when he spoke out against Catholic politicians on the wrong side of four non-negotiables: abortion, embryonic stem-cell research, euthanasia and same-sex marriage. You said that these politicians, and Catholics who vote for them, may not receive Communion until they have recanted and confessed. Is that still your position?"

"It’s clear to me that the Code of Canon Law, Canon 915, says that a Catholic politician who publicly espouses positions that are contrary, not just to any teachings of the Church, but to serious moral teachings, should not receive Holy Communion until they recant those positions publicly," Bishop Sheridan responded.

I don't see where the Bishop is wrong. If it's against Canon, then deny the communion. And make sure you let the world know what you are doing and why. please. thank you.

[Oldman]

"....I support gay marriage 100% and will continue to receive communion, with a clear conscience. The issue of equal rights under the law is nonnegotiable in a civil society.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, well.....

See the thing is, you're free to leave the Church if you disagree with its precepts.

No one 'makes' you be Catholic.

[Bham1982]

Yeah, well.....

See the thing is, you're free to leave the Church if you disagree with its precepts.

No one 'makes' you be Catholic.

Are you even Catholic? What "precept" are you referring to? I know of no precept that obligates the Catholic church to intervene in U.S. civil recognition of contracts between adults. The Catholic church is obviously against same-sex marriage, which is an entirely different issue and not relevant to the discussion [[because the Church does not recognize civil marriage to begin with). The issue has nothing to do with same-sex marriage, and everything to do with separation of church and state.

[TheUsualSuspect]

Are you even Catholic? What "precept" are you referring to? I know of no precept that obligates the Catholic church to intervene in U.S. civil recognition of contracts between adults. The Catholic church is obviously against same-sex marriage, which is an entirely different issue and not relevant to the discussion [[because the Church does not recognize civil marriage to begin with). The issue has nothing to do with same-sex marriage, and everything to do with separation of church and state.

Dang. I thought the entire thread and discussion was centered around the churches position on same-sex marriages [[and the relevency of accepting Holy Communion).

The separation of church and state discussion is another I enjoy discussing. Ignoring for the moment "In God we trust, One nation under God, and God bless America", do we truly want to entirely isolate God from the policy-setting and law-making process? The president calls for His blessing after darn near every public address. Must just be for show eh?

Whenever we get our collective selves in a bind, He's the first one we call upon for help.

Look. I don't want or need an intermixed church/state any more than anyone else, but to whom do we turn to determine what is right and what is wrong?

Our scientific intellect has by far surpassed our ability to discuss and make moral decisions. We are leaving our children and our grandchildren with decisions to make for which they are not equipped.

Let me give you two examples.

1. The nuclear weapon club is small, and thus far...sane. Fast forward 25 years from now. How many own the bomb then? Under what conditions do the good guys launch to prevent the bad guys from doing far more damage. And who are these good guys anyway?

2. Genetic engineering and the cloning of human beings. If we can clone a sheep, we can clone a human being. We'll be able to grow body parts for medical replacements before very long [[maybe we can do it now). Where does this process stop? Does a cloned human have a soul, or are they meat? It's a crude question, but would anyone care to answer with certainty?

How do you separate church and state when contemplating the answers to those kinds of questions? Now, I don't want the pope making those decisions for me either. I'm just saying we've got a lot of praying to do.

[Bham1982]

Dang. I thought the entire thread and discussion was centered around the churches position on same-sex marriages [[and the relevency of accepting Holy Communion).

Obviously the Catholic church doesn't recognize civil marriage. And obviously the Catholic church doesn't recognize same-sex marriage.

So what does it matter if the state recognizes contracts between Dick and Jane, Dick and Joe, or Bigfoot and Space Alien? It's of no relevance to the church. In Rome's eyes, if it isn't in the Catholic church, it isn't marriage.

The separation of church and state discussion is another I enjoy discussing. Ignoring for the moment "In God we trust, One nation under God, and God bless America", do we truly want to entirely isolate God from the policy-setting and law-making process? The president calls for His blessing after darn near every public address. Must just be for show eh?

The U.S. was founded as an anti-Papal and deeply Protestant nation, with mostly secular Founding Fathers, none of them Catholic.

The dominant religion back during our founding was Episcopal Church, and the Episcopals do perform gay marriages. Episcopals comprised the majority of our Founding Fathers.

So if you want to roll back the clock and get religion more deeply involved, looks like civil gay marriage has the official religious stamp of approval, at least here in the Episcopal U.S. And the Catholics will be sure to be suffer suspicion for their allegiance to the Pope.

[noise]

The separation of church and state discussion is another I enjoy discussing. Ignoring for the moment "In God we trust, One nation under God, and God bless America", do we truly want to entirely isolate God from the policy-setting and law-making process?

Yes. It has no place in policy-setting or law-making.

"In God We Trust" was adopted in 1956.
"Under God" was added to the Pledge in 1954.
"God Bless America" is just a patriotic song.

Whenever we get our collective selves in a bind, He's the first one we call upon for help.

I certainly do not.

Look. I don't want or need an intermixed church/state any more than anyone else, but to whom do we turn to determine what is right and what is wrong?

If you need a God for this, I wouldn't trust you to make the right decision.

Our scientific intellect has by far surpassed our ability to discuss and make moral decisions. We are leaving our children and our grandchildren with decisions to make for which they are not equipped.

Let me give you two examples.

1. The nuclear weapon club is small, and thus far...sane. Fast forward 25 years from now. How many own the bomb then? Under what conditions do the good guys launch to prevent the bad guys from doing far more damage. And who are these good guys anyway?

2. Genetic engineering and the cloning of human beings. If we can clone a sheep, we can clone a human being. We'll be able to grow body parts for medical replacements before very long [[maybe we can do it now). Where does this process stop? Does a cloned human have a soul, or are they meat? It's a crude question, but would anyone care to answer with certainty?

How do you separate church and state when contemplating the answers to those kinds of questions? Now, I don't want the pope making those decisions for me either. I'm just saying we've got a lot of praying to do.

Praying will certainly NOT answer those questions.

As an atheist, I certainly don't have a problem determining what's right or wrong. I don't need a God for that.

[gnome]

This is one Catholic who is going to Communion and in the palm of my hands will be two pins: a rainbow pin and the newer equal pin.

it will then be up to the priest to either lay the host on those pins or deny me the Sacrament.

thousands of other Catholics should do the same thing. Silently, surely, without rancor or disquiet ... Stand there with your hands outreached and force the Bullies to embarrass themselves.

[ThosWolfe]

Would Bishop Tom Gumbleton deny anyone communion? [[or would he himself be denied communion from another priest?)

[DetroitPlanner]

Would Bishop Tom Gumbleton deny anyone communion? [[or would he himself be denied communion from another priest?)

The good Bishop is long retired. He may well get denied.

They [[the archdiocese) needs to begin to ask themselves how this helps the mission of caring for people or what this may potentially do to both the collection plate and pew attendance.

Another question is why now? Is it because of the supreme court or is it the new Pope?

[Lowell]

Another question is why now? Is it because of the supreme court or is it the new Pope?

Maybe the timing is intentional. The new pope is not settled into his throne nor established his authority and positions. Could this be an attempt to create a scene that will force his hand to assert the church's stance?

[Gistok]

Maybe the timing is intentional. The new pope is not settled into his throne nor established his authority and positions. Could this be an attempt to create a scene that will force his hand to assert the church's stance?

Maybe Vigneron was bummed he didn't yet have a Cardinal Hat and couldn't vote last month.... Cardinal's Szoka and Maida are over 80.

Maybe he wanted the new Pope's attention...

[jackie5275]

Maybe the timing is intentional. The new pope is not settled into his throne nor established his authority and positions. Could this be an attempt to create a scene that will force his hand to assert the church's stance?

I don't think so. The pope has too many other things on his radar besides one lone archbishop in the US.

[Meddle]

How much longer are people going to let themselves be suckered in by these 'churches'? The Vatican has a centuries-old history of openly discriminating against a wide variety of people, not to mention a history of atrocities.

When will there be a female Cardinal?

When will they expel all of the child abusers in the Clergy and actively aid in their prosecution?

Until at least those two things happen, I can't understand why anyone, any where would be associated with them. The US and other countries should cut off diplomatic relations also.

Screw that bunch of old codgers.

And the Baptists and the Mormons ain't a whole lot better, if any. How many people have been killed over the last few centuries by them or their followers?

[jcole]

How much longer are people going to let themselves be suckered in by these 'churches'? The Vatican has a centuries-old history of openly discriminating against a wide variety of people, not to mention a history of atrocities.

When will there be a female Cardinal?

When will they expel all of the child abusers in the Clergy and actively aid in their prosecution?

Until at least those two things happen, I can't understand why anyone, any where would be associated with them. The US and other countries should cut off diplomatic relations also.

Screw that bunch of old codgers.

And the Baptists and the Mormons ain't a whole lot better, if any. How many people have been killed over the last few centuries by them or their followers?

What do you mean, when will there be a female Cardinal? When will there be a female PRIEST?? Can't be a Cardinal without being a priest first and that step hasn't been made yet. Probably won't happen with the current pope either. Both the Church and the Bible have been blaming women for the original sin for so long now, I don't see how they'll ever get past it. I think gay marriage will be accepted sooner than you will see women in the priesthood.

[Johnnny5]

I'm not gay or Catholic, but I still think the host of the party should be able to make the rules. The Catholic Church is a private religious institution, and if you don't agree with them you have every right to go elsewhere or campaign for change.

There are far more Catholics in the world that agree with the Catholic Church's stance on homosexuality, than there are that oppose it. That doesn't make it anymore right or wrong, but they are still keeping with the opinion of the majority of their members.

[Meddle]

The Catholic Church is a private religious institution,

When you're recognized as a government/country and have been actively involved in governing other countries in your past, you have certain obligations to civil rights.

[Lowell]

Have these two advocates of discrimination suddenly forgotten the past persecution of their faith in this country?

John Highham described anti-Catholicism as "the most luxuriant, tenacious tradition of paranoiac agitation in American history.

Historian Arthur Schlesinger Sr. has called Anti-Catholicism "the deepest-held bias in the history of the American people."

Anti-Catholic fears reached a peak in the nineteenth century when the Protestant population became alarmed by the influx of Catholic immigrants. Some claimed that the Catholic Church was the Whore of Babylon in the Book of Revelation. The resulting "nativist" movement, which achieved prominence in the 1840s, was whipped into a frenzy of anti-Catholicism that led to mob violence in several cities …and the Ku Klux Klan-ridden South discriminated against Catholics.
Link to wiki

Who's in the tree now and who's now chopping it down?

Branford Clarke illustration in The Ku Klux Klan In Prophecy 1925 by Bishop Alma White published by the Pillar of Fire Church in Zarephath, NJ

[gazhekwe]

One of the many reasons there are so many former Catholics. Imagine, if you think divorce should not be a sin, you think abortion should be one choice available to women, if you think that the Church should not discount other religions, you cannot take communion. Communion is the main gift Jesus gave to the church, to share his love and teachings with the world, not to divide and dominate. These decisions are made by ordinary men to further human agendas that they support. Men are not perfect in their choices, hence the many missteps in a perfect world.