IS the current "revitalization" of Greater Downtown real?

[Bham1982]

Chicago approves $7 million subsidy for Mariano's

Yes, and this doesn't happen in the yuppie neighborhoods. This is the West Side of Chicago, which is crap. It doesn't happen in Lincoln Park, Lakeview, Gold Coast, etc.

And, again, Chicago isn't representative of "all cities". It's a very big outlier, with a very pro-development, pro-TIF subsidy culture. This is completely alien to the experiences in most major cities.

In more successful large cities, it's the developer who has to give back to the city. You can't get anything built in cities like NYC, SF, LA, Boston, and DC without promising affordable housing, limits on size and density, transit improvements, and other givebacks.

[TexasT]

Yes, and this doesn't happen in the yuppie neighborhoods. This is the West Side of Chicago, which is crap. It doesn't happen in Lincoln Park, Lakeview, Gold Coast, etc.

And, again, Chicago isn't representative of "all cities". It's a very big outlier, with a very pro-development, pro-TIF subsidy culture. This is completely alien to the experiences in most major cities.

In more successful large cities, it's the developer who has to give back to the city. You can't get anything built in cities like NYC, SF, LA, Boston, and DC without promising affordable housing, limits on size and density, transit improvements, and other givebacks.

Another bham post, another moving the goal posts..[[and West Loop is extremely yuppified, since it sounds like you are unfamiliar with it. One of Chicago's hottest newer restaurants, Girl & The Goat - owned by the Top Chef winner, is there and I really recommend it FYI! Blackbird, continually rated as one of the best restaurants in the country is also in the West Loop on Restaurant Row, fyi.).

You are about 0/4 on your statements like this [[you just got utterly owned on that last one). I'm not even going to try to disprove you anymore...

[Bham1982]

You are about 0/4 on your statements like this [[you just got utterly owned on that last one). I'm not even going to try to disprove you anymore...

The claim was that every city is the same as Detroit [[in other words, all cities have to use subsidies to revitalize their downtowns).

The evidence given was a subsidized grocery store on the West Side of Chicago.

So we don't yet have a downtown example, and we don't have any reason to believe that Chicago is representative of other cities. But I'm supposed to believe that "every city subsidizes development in its downtown" because "one city subsidizes a store in the ghetto".

If you can't understand why the given example was stupid, I can't help you.

[Eber Brock Ward]

The claim was that every city is the same as Detroit [[in other words, all cities have to use subsidies to revitalize their downtowns).

The evidence given was a subsidized grocery store on the West Side of Chicago.

So we don't yet have a downtown example, and we don't have any reason to believe that Chicago is representative of other cities. But I'm supposed to believe that "every city subsidizes development in its downtown" because "one city subsidizes a store in the ghetto".

If you can't understand why the given example was stupid, I can't help you.

Here, you never responded last time: http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...411#post370411

And I think there's a third thread out there where I started rattling off projects in Chicago when you tried to pull that "subsidy" crap again.

Like I wrote earlier, when you bring the deal team together on one of these deals, the subsidy question is not generally one of "will we subsidy?" but, rather, "what type of subsidy package can we put together?"

Just stop. It's the same old canard about subsidies and it's disproven every time. Hone your argument, if you're going with the subsidies line. You either need to drop it or acknowledge that, yes, there are subsidies for many projects in Detroit's downtown, but that's the case with just about any substantial project in other major cities.

[Bham1982]

Here, you never responded last time: http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...411#post370411

And I think there's a third thread out there where I started rattling off projects in Chicago when you tried to pull that "subsidy" crap again.

You're having a hard time following the conversation.

Again, the claim was that all cities do this, for all their projects downtown.

You keep citing one city, and projects not downtown, so completely irrelevent to the conversation. I never said struggling, poor neighborhoods should never receive govt. assistance.

Chicago is an outlier, TIF subsidies are outliers, and even Chicago is nothing like Detroit. They aren't subsidizing grocery stores, restaurants, etc. downtown and in the yuppie areas.

Yes, they have used TIF subsides in marginal areas like the West Side [[and no, this is not a desirable area; if it were a desirable area, obviously they wouldn't be spending $7 million for a place to buy grocieries).

Like I wrote earlier, when you bring the deal team together on one of these deals, the subsidy question is not generally one of "will we subsidy?" but, rather, "what type of subsidy package can we put together?"

And that's exactly why downtown Detroit isn't revitalized. There's no market yet. In prosperous cities, the question isn't "What will govt. provide the developers", it's "What will developers provide the govt."

Just stop. It's the same old canard about subsidies and it's disproven every time.

What is disproven every time? What are you even talking about?

If an area needs massive grants to stay afloat, it isn't revitalizing. I could build superluxury condos in River Rouge, given the proper subsidies. It doesn't mean River Rouge is revitalized just because the govt. pays someone to build something.

[Eber Brock Ward]

You're having a hard time following the conversation.

Again, the claim was that all cities do this, for all their projects downtown.

You keep citing one city, and projects not downtown, so completely irrelevent to the conversation. I never said struggling, poor neighborhoods should never receive govt. assistance.

Chicago is an outlier, TIF subsidies are outliers, and even Chicago is nothing like Detroit. They aren't subsidizing grocery stores, restaurants, etc. downtown and in the yuppie areas.

Yes, they have used TIF subsides in marginal areas like the West Side [[and no, this is not a desirable area; if it were a desirable area, obviously they wouldn't be spending $7 million for a place to buy grocieries).



And that's exactly why downtown Detroit isn't revitalized. There's no market yet. In prosperous cities, the question isn't "What will govt. provide the developers", it's "What will developers provide the govt."



What is disproven every time? What are you even talking about?

If an area needs massive grants to stay afloat, it isn't revitalizing. I could build superluxury condos in River Rouge, given the proper subsidies. It doesn't mean River Rouge is revitalized just because the govt. pays someone to build something.

Wait what the fuck? I posted links to NYTimes articles about the subsidies for projects in Manhattan and you're talking about Chicago and "one city"? Even better when it's another example of you getting owned on the same point weeks ago?

Awesome.

Do you bother to read or do you just pick a few things from your same tired script and repost them?

[TexasT]

Just stop. It's the same old canard about subsidies and it's disproven every time. Hone your argument, if you're going with the subsidies line. You either need to drop it or acknowledge that, yes, there are subsidies for many projects in Detroit's downtown, but that's the case with just about any substantial project in other major cities.

Meh. Every ridiculous claim of his can be dashed with a link to an obvious counterexample [[see above). It's tiring. He can do his own Googling or just continue to be wrong.

The man thinks the West Loop, one of the trendiest neighborhoods in Chicago, "full of spacious lofts, cozy cafes and popular nightspots," described by the Tribune as "a magnet for young professionals," and home to some of the most celebrated restaurants in Chicago [[Avec, Blackbird, Girl & Goat, Nia) is in the ghetto. He may know less about Chicago than he does about Houston and that's saying something.

[Eber Brock Ward]

Meh. Every ridiculous claim of his has been dashed with a link to an obvious counterexample [[see above). It's tiring. He can do his own Googling or just continue to be wrong.

The man thinks the West Loop, one of the trendiest growing neighborhoods, home to some of the most celebrated restaurants in Chicago [[Avec, Blackbird, Girl & Goat, Nia) is in the ghetto. He may know less about Chicago than he does about Houston and that's saying something.

Fixed for you.

And Bham, if you are too lazy to read what I actually post [[like the NY one above, where you starting going off about Chicago), it's not worth my time to find the links to disprove your points.

[Danny]

Thanks to DanGilbert, Downtown Detroit will be filling up with more exotic retail. MikeIllitch and Peter Karmanos should have done these years ago.

[nain rouge]

Downtown and Midtown are definitely the most inviting they've ever been in decades I think that's promising, but for me, the real sign that the revitalization is legit will be when neighborhoods like Woodbridge truly turn around. Then we'll have some critical mass.

[jaytheory]

Downtown and Midtown are definitely the most inviting they've ever been in decades I think that's promising, but for me, the real sign that the revitalization is legit will be when neighborhoods like Woodbridge truly turn around. Then we'll have some critical mass.

your right that neighborhood improvement will be the lynchpin to the whole thing. but I would say from what i understand, Woodbridge is tremendously better than what it was in the 80's and 90's.

[daveyarm]

"Most of the new people in the area around the CBD are only there because of tax incentives, meaning once those dry up, who knows what is going to happen once they have to pay a higher premium to live or own there."

The person who wrote this apparently doesn't understand the nature of Downtown living. Very, very few people purchase in the CBD area – – – it is largely rentals. True, Blue Cross, Compuware, Quicken and others have offered cash bonuses for moving downtown, but tax incentives in the CBD area are rare.