The Detroit Startup Scene, and why I'm saying farewell to the Motor City [[for now)

[Guideboat]

BIR - I think that attitude reflects what he has found here. Of course people are largely responsible for their own success, but a "suck it up" environment is less conducive to success than a "how can we help you succeed" environment. The city [[government, lenders, leaders of all stripes) need to focus on nurturing nascent businesses, not intentionally or unintentionally setting up roadblocks.

[illwill]

If you read into the OP post, I think he's not happy being in Detroit because he wants to be closer to family or maybe because he hasn't found a close group of friends to connect with. It sounds more personal than professional to me. This is common for many people who move to other cities away from home and unfortunately aren't able to develop close and personal relationships. Or quite frankly miss being around family or familiar surroundings. Or maybe he just needs a change of scenery to rejuvenate him? This is common. But I don't think he should blame Detroit.

However I always hear that cities like Washington D.C., San Francisco, Chicago and New York are cities who embrace new comers from anywhere in the world. They're easy transitional cities. That's the reason they have so many foreigners, foreign businesses, foreign banks, restaurants etc...

And I've always heard the city of Detroit has a reputation for not welcoming out of towners. If you're not from "the D" then you're not one of us attitude. Maybe Detroit is hard on transplants?

[metadetroit]

I think Detroit could be an amazing place for startups......startups that want to ACTUALLY quickly make an amazing IDEA HAPPEN- without foucsing on investor or VC money.

It can theoretically be SO cheap to live and rent space in Detroit that theoretically....one could do it just living off of modest personal savings and honing their business model/product/service...

A small group could sharply focus on an idea, and make it happen ----

I'm witnessing a massively huge tech startup scene in NYC now - but it seems like the companies spend most of their time courting VC money....Grow a headcount really fast...and give their employees offices with fancy gyms and free snacks - while the core functions of those companies are often half-baked or lacking much utility.

[illwill]

I think Detroit could be an amazing place for startups......startups that want to ACTUALLY quickly make an amazing IDEA HAPPEN- without foucsing on investor or VC money

It can theoretically be SO cheap to live and rent space in Detroit that theoretically....even just living off of modest personal savings while honing it...

So a small group could sharply focus on an idea, and make it happen ----

I'm witnessing a massively huge tech startup scene in NYC now - but it seems like the companies spend most of their time courting VC money....Grow a headcount really fast...and give their employees offices with fancy gyms and free snacks - while the core functions of those companies are often half-baked or lacking much utility.

I hear you but this whole perception of other cities being super pricey and not being affordable is NOT always true. There's a huge tech spurt taking place in the Bronx which is very affordable. It may not be trendy or Brooklyn but it is affordable and it's in NYC. Chicago has the entire South and West sides that are dirt cheap. Not the Loop but you're only a train ride from the Loop. Many areas in Chicago are much cheaper than Detroit. The advantage with these cities is you're still located in the immediate region of a vibrant and bustling city.

It's always puzzled me to hear Gov. Snyder pretend as if every other big city is filled to capacity... "why be a little fish in a big pond when you can be a big fish in a little pond." The reason that argument hasn't worked is because Chicago is a city that has TONS of room for growth. Chicago is not even close to being filled to capacity. So if you're looking for the high-speed rail, mad urban grit and the allure of an old city plus affordability, other cities can offer this too. He needs a stronger argument.

Detroit will get there in time. We've made HUGE strides in recent years and we're still making positive strides.

[michimoby]

If you read into the OP post, I think he's not happy being in Detroit because he wants to be closer to family or maybe because he hasn't found a close group of friends to connect with. It sounds more personal than professional to me. This is common for many people who move to other cities away from home and unfortunately aren't able to develop close and personal relationships. Or quite frankly miss being around family or familiar surroundings. Or maybe he just needs a change of scenery to rejuvenate him? This is common. But I don't think he should blame Detroit.

However I always hear that cities like Washington D.C., San Francisco, Chicago and New York are cities who embrace new comers from anywhere in the world. They're easy transitional cities. That's the reason they have so many foreigners, foreign businesses, foreign banks, restaurants etc...

And I've always heard the city of Detroit has a reputation for not welcoming out of towners. If you're not from "the D" then you're not one of us attitude. Maybe Detroit is hard on transplants?

I'll clarify some of your points, ill: I've met some incredible, incredible people here in Detroit and have been blessed with some friendships that will last for many years to come. Trust me when I say that I'm not considering moving closer to family -- the plains of the Bible Belt aren't calling me back.

On a personal level, I've felt welcomed as an outsider - and if anything, perhaps this validates some of the concerns I've raised: that welcome mat has not been equally rolled out in Detroit by those with an economic or political position. It is being rolled out in other cities in which I have some established connections; in full disclosure, those connections were developed over the past several years while I've been here in Detroit.

Thus the decision is, primarily, professional in nature - and part of that transition involves finding and empathizing with a base of others in a similar stage of their career that can be a source of support and guidance. There is a personal element, however, in the fact that I'm single and in my 30's; finding someone compatible [[and unattached) in Detroit is....well, that's a separate thread.

On another note: I do see that my original post has proliferated beyond this forum - and as I read some of the comments in response, it saddens me that my thoughts have been interpreted by some as a digital "screw y'all" as I throw up double-barreled middle fingers with my U-Haul in tow. That would be completely hypocritical and non-reflective of my deep love for the city I've called home the past few years. And it also saddens me that my observations have been interpreted as a "guy with a bad attitude that would never work out at a startup" or someone that's "quit at mile 22"; that seems to completely invalidate and detracts from the productive - and hopefully proactive - discussion we're having here. Instead of responding to ad hominem attacks, I'd rather spend my time clarifying my perspective in order to bring us all to an understanding of what Detroit needs to do differently, if anything.

[Honky Tonk]

I'll clarify some of your points, ill: I've met some incredible, incredible people here in Detroit and have been blessed with some friendships that will last for many years to come. Trust me when I say that I'm not considering moving closer to family -- the plains of the Bible Belt aren't calling me back.

On a personal level, I've felt welcomed as an outsider - and if anything, perhaps this validates some of the concerns I've raised: that welcome mat has not been equally rolled out in Detroit by those with an economic or political position. It is being rolled out in other cities in which I have some established connections; in full disclosure, those connections were developed over the past several years while I've been here in Detroit.

Thus the decision is, primarily, professional in nature - and part of that transition involves finding and empathizing with a base of others in a similar stage of their career that can be a source of support and guidance. There is a personal element, however, in the fact that I'm single and in my 30's; finding someone compatible [[and unattached) in Detroit is....well, that's a separate thread.

On another note: I do see that my original post has proliferated beyond this forum - and as I read some of the comments in response, it saddens me that my thoughts have been interpreted by some as a digital "screw y'all" as I throw up double-barreled middle fingers with my U-Haul in tow. That would be completely hypocritical and non-reflective of my deep love for the city I've called home the past few years. And it also saddens me that my observations have been interpreted as a "guy with a bad attitude that would never work out at a startup" or someone that's "quit at mile 22"; that seems to completely invalidate and detracts from the productive - and hopefully proactive - discussion we're having here. Instead of responding to ad hominem attacks, I'd rather spend my time clarifying my perspective in order to bring us all to an understanding of what Detroit needs to do differently, if anything.

Sorry things didn't work out for you here. Trust ME when I say go set yourself up somewhere that's more conducive to your needs and wants. Detroit, or MI for that matter, aren't anywhere near as progressive as other parts of the country, or as they think they are. But enough of that stuff. How did the headboard turn out?

[corktownyuppie]

I think Detroit could be an amazing place for startups......startups that want to ACTUALLY quickly make an amazing IDEA HAPPEN- without foucsing on investor or VC money.

It can theoretically be SO cheap to live and rent space in Detroit that theoretically....one could do it just living off of modest personal savings and honing their business model/product/service...
[quote/]

Yes, in this I can start to delineate what the OP is lacking vs. what the business community is lacking. I have several clients that are running start-ups but the one thing they all have in common is that they all started the company themselves.

It sounds like moby is looking to get recruited into an executive position at a start-up that has started to get some serious VC funding...specifically it would have to be one that [[1) not only got early stage funding but [[2) is also needing to look outside its existing leadership structure to bring on additional executive talent.

The problem is that for every Instagram there are 1,000 other tech startups that don't make it to early stage funding. So OP is in tough position of not just wanting to work for a start-up, but one which has already attracted some serious money and will likely attract more.

I talked yesterday to 2 different CEOs that have successfully taken their companies to somewhat sustainable levels without outside funding. They mentioned some interesting points that I will now steal from them

[[1) Detroit/Ann Arbor would be [[or has been) a great place to start a company that was more service-based rather than pure-tech. There is enough of a generous supply of highly educated "worker bees" who have high motivation to try to grow a company. Both noted that a need for talented mid-level manager exists and is generally able to be filled. The need for top-notch executive leadership [[$100-150k+) is not present and probably won't be until they choose [[and succeed) to expand from 10-30 employees to a level of 50-75+ employees.

[[2) Detroit has some advantages in talent-base and low cost of living. You are probably more able to get more start-ups "off the ground" because funding goes a much longer way at the entry level. But the community is young. And in a community like San Francisco the increased expense in starting is more than outweighed by accelerating the iterations in the feedback loop that you can have when you're surrounded daily by entrepreneurs at various levels of their development as well as regular contact in VC.

[[3) Both agreed that 75-80% of start ups disappear within 4-5 years. One notes that OP is in tricky spot of not wanting to start the company himself while also being recruited into growing one at an executive level. Detroit has a vibrant and growing start-up community, but it's still in its early stages of development. Lots and lots of worker-bees in the pipeline. But very, very few spots where people looking to bring on another captain. He says San Fran is a place where that can and will happen. Chicago and New York are debatable but possible.

I'm witnessing a massively huge tech startup scene in NYC now - but it seems like the companies spend most of their time courting VC money....Grow a headcount really fast...and give their employees offices with fancy gyms and free snacks - while the core functions of those companies are often half-baked or lacking much utility.

Detroit is a lot of things, but it is definitely not that Det_ard built a start-up consulting firm, and I know of a few people who have successfully done it. But that sounds like a different interest than the poster.

My take is that what moby is looking for is not going to exist in great supply in Detroit for awhile [[if ever), which makes the few opportunities that do exist seem like they are politically anointed. Are they? Not sure. Could just be the natural order of things when they are in scarce supply.

[michimoby]

Sorry things didn't work out for you here. Trust ME when I say go set yourself up somewhere that's more conducive to your needs and wants. Detroit, or MI for that matter, aren't anywhere near as progressive as other parts of the country, or as they think they are. But enough of that stuff. How did the headboard turn out?

Thanks for asking - and remembering! I haven't yet worked on it, but the bed turned out great. The folks up at Reclaiming Detroit are superb.

[Honky Tonk]

Thanks for asking - and remembering! I haven't yet worked on it, but the bed turned out great. The folks up at Reclaiming Detroit are superb.

How about a pic or two before you go? It might be a valuble resource for those of us you're "abandoning".

[michimoby]

How about a pic or two before you go? It might be a valuble resource for those of us you're "abandoning".

I'll try to get a few....before I use it as a raft out in open ocean when I jump ship.

[royce]

Michimoby, I read this thread and I don't know if I'm angry or disappointed. I'm angry because it sounds like you haven't been successful in the manner that you think you should be and you're blaming Detroit. I'm disappointed because it appears that you can't find happiness here. Now, I'll be completely honest, I don't know what "deal flow" and all that VC terminology is all about. However, I get angry when I hear someone say that they want to be a consultant or that they make their living consulting. Living in Detroit, I have heard how lucrative "consultants" to city government or to the Detroit Public School system have been, taking millions to propose something that, in the end, doesn't work.

My point is this, "what is your product?" What are you trying to sell people? If it's your expertise, then maybe it's not desired because you haven't built a rich enough portfolio. You mentioned that you haven't been here very long. Also, you mentioned the lack of backers. Well, if you don't have a rich uncle that might explain a lot of things as well. If I wanted to open up a shoe store, it would be nice to have some savings and/or some friends and family to seek funds from before I went to the bank to ask for a loan. Dealing with people who know me and what I am capable of doing as a store owner would make the shoe store "venture" easier to get started. Going to the bank for a loan or to others would be harder because they don't know me. Well, you know all this.

My point is that it's never easy trying to start a business. Places like NYC, Chicago, or San Francisco may have more people with deeper pockets willing to take a chance on start-ups. In Detroit, they're probably not nearly as many.

At any rate, I just needed to express this. No ill will, Michimoby. I hope you find success wherever you go and don't forget to plug Detroit. Most experiences have some "good" in them even those from Detroit.

[michimoby]

Michimoby, I read this thread and I don't know if I'm angry or disappointed. I'm angry because it sounds like you haven't been successful in the manner that you think you should be and you're blaming Detroit. I'm disappointed because it appears that you can't find happiness here. Now, I'll be completely honest, I don't know what "deal flow" and all that VC terminology is all about. However, I get angry when I hear someone say that they want to be a consultant or that they make their living consulting. Living in Detroit, I have heard how lucrative "consultants" to city government or to the Detroit Public School system have been, taking millions to propose something that, in the end, doesn't work.

My point is this, "what is your product?" What are you trying to sell people? If it's your expertise, then maybe it's not desired because you haven't built a rich enough portfolio. You mentioned that you haven't been here very long. Also, you mentioned the lack of backers. Well, if you don't have a rich uncle that might explain a lot of things as well. If I wanted to open up a shoe store, it would be nice to have some savings and/or some friends and family to seek funds from before I went to the bank to ask for a loan. Dealing with people who know me and what I am capable of doing as a store owner would make the shoe store "venture" easier to get started. Going to the bank for a loan or to others would be harder because they don't know me. Well, you know all this.

My point is that it's never easy trying to start a business. Places like NYC, Chicago, or San Francisco may have more people with deeper pockets willing to take a chance on start-ups. In Detroit, they're probably not nearly as many.

At any rate, I just needed to express this. No ill will, Michimoby. I hope you find success wherever you go and don't forget to plug Detroit. Most experiences have some "good" in them even those from Detroit.

Royce, you bring up some excellent thoughts and I appreciate the well-wishes. Rest assured, I will be offering up my perspective on Detroit as a place with many, many challenges, but somewhere that I believe everyone should test and see whether it's a place they can grow and thrive. I gave it a shot, and it simply didn't work out for me for a variety of reasons.

Now, while I wouldn't want to neither control nor suppress your anger, it brings up a clarification that I should note: my reasons for leaving are a combination of: a) feeling like the effort to embed myself in the Detroit startup community was overtly challenging and surprising, given the city's desire [[and need) to retain talented people; b) the overwhelming support I've received by entrepreneurs and investors in other cities asking me to come join the ecosystem in their respective cities, and c) feeling like, at this moment, other cities simply fit my professional and personal needs better. b) suggests to me that it's not a lack of skills or capabilities on my end that's causing the issue; many have identified that my contributions to the business world would be an important asset to their community.

It's also entirely possible that your point is correct: my product is simply not saleable in this market. But along with my previous point above, I believe that's less about having a solid product and more about misunderstanding the market. It would be like trying to sell snowboarding pants to a retirement community in Florida.

There's a thread emanating from all this that several have brought up, and in the midst of this topic it's important to recognize: there are many, many, many resources that Metro Detroit has in order for an entrepreneur to succeed. Ann Arbor is absolutely killing it right now, for example, and particular ventures [[Glyph and Apigee are a few cases) are doing an excellent job. I'm focusing my viewpoints on Detroit: particularly, the ecosystem that finds itself seeking talent in order to grow and thrive while claiming to be the "next big thing" in tech. I did not do an effective job of narrowing my focus in my initial post, and I unfortunately hurt the feelings of some entrepreneurs - as well as took a bite out of my own credibility. Those are unfortunate repercussions I'll have to accept.

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For my sake and Det_ard's [[the resident consultants in the room), I also can understand your concern for the industry - many of my closest friends aren't really sure what I do . In many cases, it appears that their efforts are a complete sunk cost.

The benefits to hiring a consultant include things like a rapid-pace assessment of a problem and a solution, as well as deep content knowledge. But where consultants are often derided is their inability to empathize with the company culture and craft a solution that is sensitive to it. And therein lies the grand challenge with consultants: most of them don't stick around to see their recommendations implemented; many times, their ideas aren't implemented at all.

But the reason for that lack of implementation may vary: for example I advised a charter school on their entry strategy into Detroit last year, providing case studies on several neighborhoods and advising their leadership team on where they should set up shop. Well, I received a call from them about three weeks ago stating that they've decided to hold off on opening their school because the political and social climate isn't in a state with which they're comfortable at the moment. This issue was orthogonal to the focus of my engagement with them, but it nevertheless was not implemented.

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[subsidized]

for example I advised a charter school on their entry strategy into Detroit last year, providing case studies on several neighborhoods and advising their leadership team on where they should set up shop. Well, I received a call from them about three weeks ago stating that they've decided to hold off on opening their school because the political and social climate isn't in a state with which they're comfortable at the moment. This issue was orthogonal to the focus of my engagement with them, but it nevertheless was not implemented.

So let me get this right. You moved to Detroit from out of state less than a year ago and now you're advising charter schools on where they should locate here in Detroit? How well do you really know the area? Do you think maybe that your overall lack of experience with the region might have something to do with the fact that your plans are not being implemented? I'm not trying to sound negative but your attitude seems to suggest that you think you're gods gift to Detroit and folks here are to stupid to see it. In any case I wish you the best of luck in all that you do, and not that it matters but I found this Q and A with Josh Linkner and I think the response to the last question fits your current experience perfectly.

http://www.openforum.com/articles/ad...tal-superstar/

[michimoby]

So let me get this right. You moved to Detroit from out of state less than a year ago and now you're advising charter schools on where they should locate here in Detroit? How well do you really know the area? Do you think maybe that your overall lack of experience with the region might have something to do with the fact that your plans are not being implemented?

I've been actively seeking an opportunity in the startup scene for eight months; I've been in the area non-consecutively for ten years. My most recent stint here has been for six.

My client's perspective on their decision not to implement, as mentioned before, had entirely to do with their internal concerns about being able to effectively execute on their plans to launch a charter in the city. In fact, when they made the decision, I was the first person [[outside of their Board) that they called to break the news. I think that speaks well of the positive experience we had working together.

I'm not trying to sound negative but your attitude seems to suggest that you think you're gods gift to Detroit and folks here are to stupid to see it.

If a semblance of that attitude was reflected in my writing, then I did a poor job in describing my frustrations. That's my folly. In short...no, I don't believe that, I've never believed that, and anyone that knows me in person doesn't believe that I believe that. I'm no Malik Shabazz.

Let's view this through two distinctly separate, but often intermingled, perspectives: entitlement and confidence. I'm not owed anything by this city [[entitlement), but I have [[had) the confidence that what I brought to the table would be valued by those with an equivalent mission to revitalize the city economically. My frustrations with finding that my hypothesis regarding the latter wasn't as expected is the premise behind the OP.

In any case I wish you the best of luck in all that you do, and not that it matters but I found this Q and A with Josh Linkner and I think the response to the last question fits your current experience perfectly.

http://www.openforum.com/articles/ad...tal-superstar/

Thanks for the well-wishes. And Josh is absolutely right. It's a hard slog being an entrepreneur - you're always looking for ways to disrupt the market, convincing people that your product is viable and marketable and good enough to do it. And knowing Josh peripherally, he's taken his lumps as an entrepreneur but has fought the fight. He's in a respected position now, and that doesn't come through pure luck -- well, that's part of the equation, but not the largest variable.

But I would respectfully add to his viewpoint by saying this: "if your eggs aren't cooking in your current pan, move 'em to a different pan." In the past, Metro Detroit's lack of a solid entrepreneurial culture caused several companies to pack up and leave [[Mobius is a shining example of this). Having spoken with some of those companies, they were rightfully angry that the ecosystem couldn't retain and grow their businesses.

The region, I think, did a good job learning from those shortcomings, and the seeds of nominal growth you see in places like Ann Arbor are a byproduct of being kicked in the ass by those experiences. They were able to look beyond the visceral frustration those entrepreneurs had and take a good, introspective look at what was being said.

Let's apply the same scenario here: a person with the desire and capability to make a positive impact is leaving because he doesn't feel supported by the ecosystem. He's moving his eggs to a different pan. And his reasons for doing so are sprinkled with personal frustration and hurt.

And perhaps that's why I'm sticking around in this dialogue. I care very, very deeply about this city, and I want to unpack ways to ensure that what occurred in my situation doesn't repeat itself. What we may learn is that some of what I shared is reflective of my own emotional observations, but I believe there's an important element of the ecosystem that bears examining. That takes time and iteration, but I willingly want to walk through that process. Unfortunately, for my own personal and professional well-being, I cannot do that from Detroit - at least, for now.

[michimoby]

How about a pic or two before you go? It might be a valuble resource for those of us you're "abandoning".

Ask and ye shall receive, HT! See attached photo.

[mwilbert]

As in any relationship, a person and a city may just not work out, without any particular fault on either end. You move on, and hope you find another partner that works better.

And sometimes, maybe, you can get back together in a few years after you've both gone through some changes.

[omnishambles]

I have a question for the OP and it is not intended as a dig or snark. I respect that you were trying for something that at this juncture just hasn't worked out the way you wished it had.

It seems that your skills are in relation to providing relevant information to new businesses. Just to state this simply - don't those new businesses have to *exist* before you can do consulting work for them? Certain parts of Detroit definitely seem to be experiencing the beginnings of a comeback, but it also feels like very early stages. Have you considered that the lack of business might be just that - a lack of business - rather than antipathy on the part of local government/leaders? Do you think that you may have been too early for this kind of thing to get off the ground in Detroit? Do you anticipate that it may be better in a few years?

Genuinely curious, no assery intended!

[canuck]

michimoby, I wish you luck! I'm sorry if my lame-ass joke sounded like an insult. It wasnt; just wordplay on my dumbass part. I hope your new destination is more rewarding and also hope the phone rings oneday to see you back in Detroit for new ventures. It happens like that often. Your talents are probably held in high regard and the fact some projects fizzed out may be due to circumstances outweighing this. Cheers man! Also, when you find a significant other to complement your life choices, it will make things more... interesting and worthwhile.

[michimoby]

I have a question for the OP and it is not intended as a dig or snark. I respect that you were trying for something that at this juncture just hasn't worked out the way you wished it had.

It seems that your skills are in relation to providing relevant information to new businesses. Just to state this simply - don't those new businesses have to *exist* before you can do consulting work for them? Certain parts of Detroit definitely seem to be experiencing the beginnings of a comeback, but it also feels like very early stages. Have you considered that the lack of business might be just that - a lack of business - rather than antipathy on the part of local government/leaders? Do you think that you may have been too early for this kind of thing to get off the ground in Detroit? Do you anticipate that it may be better in a few years?

Genuinely curious, no assery intended!

It's a very good observation and not snarky at all. The available volume of clients to advise - and potentially join - is incredibly small in comparison to other major markets, I agree. That's part of the equation.

At the same time, I still get the sense that a lot of startups are just not quite sure what to do with the available resources. I can think of one or two others in Detroit that have been providing advisory services to startups in a similar fashion, and neither of them are completely overwhelmed with a backlog of potential clients either - they've been for more established than I have, too. In contrast, every one of my contemporaries in NYC that takes on freelance consulting work has a backlog that they simply cannot handle. Yes, it's a larger market - but it also is quite probable that they simply understand how to leverage the talent available to them.

It may take place in Detroit in the future. A couple years may be pushing it, though: what you need is a pipeline of successful entrepreneurs that then have the bandwidth to reinvest in the greater startup community. Silicon Valley didn't thrive because it had pockets of talent and cash; it did so because the effort to use those assets was cohesive, structured, transparent, and communal. But it took 40-50 years for them to get it right.