Metro Detroit now smaller than Phoenix?

[chicagoforlife]

Detroit as a whole is around 5000 people per square mile. I'd imagine it's more dense than that in Midtown and Downtown where the line will be servicing, but I'd be really curious to see some numbers.

Wiki puts Midtown at 7000 people per square in 2010, but the population has increased since then.

I looked at downtown's density and it's about half that of midtown's. Then I combined midtown and downtown and got a density of about 5,700. If there was 15,700 instead it would have a population of almost 55,000 people between midtown and downtown combined compared to about 20,000 currently. And that is just 3.5 square miles of a 139 square mile city LOL.

[TexasT]

I looked at downtown's density and it's about half that of midtown's. Then I combined midtown and downtown and got a density of about 5,700. If there was 15,700 instead it would have a population of almost 55,000 people between midtown and downtown combined compared to about 20,000 currently. And that is just 3.5 square miles of a 139 square mile city LOL.

I don't find it surprising that Downtown has fewer residents per square mile than Midtown, which is way more residential although with the Broderick, Whitney, Ashley and whatever Gilbert is planning will hopefully start to change the mix of downtown a bit.

[chicagoforlife]

I don't find it surprising that Downtown has fewer residents per square mile than Midtown, which is way more residential although with the Broderick, Whitney, Ashley and whatever Gilbert is planning will hopefully start to change the mix of downtown a bit.

I just wish Detroit would ditch the surface parking lots. This is the downtown area of a large city not the suburbs.

[TexasT]

I just wish Detroit would ditch the surface parking lots. This is the downtown area of a large city not the suburbs.

It's similar to my hometown of Houston, which is also trying to grow its central business district. Tons of surface lots there too. It just takes time. You can't just "ditch" surface lots with the snap of fingers. Even Chicago has several - I worked at Wacker & Randolph and there were surface lots just behind my building. Cross the river on the west side of the loop and there are plenty there.

[iheartthed]

I looked at downtown's density and it's about half that of midtown's. Then I combined midtown and downtown and got a density of about 5,700. If there was 15,700 instead it would have a population of almost 55,000 people between midtown and downtown combined compared to about 20,000 currently. And that is just 3.5 square miles of a 139 square mile city LOL.

The most densely populated neighborhoods in Detroit are located near Hamtramck and in southwest Detroit.

[nain rouge]

And to get Detroit back to 7,000 to 8,000 people per square mile you will need to introduce rail before that happens because I don't see it happening without at least some form of rail. And I think Detroit could function as a city of about 1.4 or 1.5 million people just fine, they also need to restore city services before anyone will give Detroit a serious thought.

Why don't we build light rail in Roseville and Eastpointe along Gratiot, which combined have about the same density as Midtown/Downtown? With the magical density boosting properties of light rail, both cities will quickly transition into real cities. Dan Gilbert could move Quicken Loans into the old Nail Studio.

Or how about light rail through Ferndale and Royal Oak? Give then current densities, it could just lead to the creation of a MEGA-CITY! We're talking NYC proportions here, people!

[Hermod]

You can use surface lots out in the burbs IF [[and only IF) you have a fast, efficient, safe, AND desirable transit system to move the commuters from their cars in the surface parking lots for the transit stations to a block or two from their workplace.

[chicagoforlife]

It's similar to my hometown of Houston, which is also trying to grow its central business district. Tons of surface lots there too. It just takes time. You can't just "ditch" surface lots with the snap of fingers. Even Chicago has several - I worked at Wacker & Randolph and there were surface lots just behind my building. Cross the river on the west side of the loop and there are plenty there.

Yeah Chicago has plenty of them too, I think the main difference is that they are open all the time and have attendents on duty. Where in Detroit they just use the surface lots for parking for Comerica Park and Ford Field.

The best place to park in Chicago is at a CTA park and ride lot, probably along the Blue Line somewhere would be the best bet because you can get off the expressway go park and take the L downtown. I know Forest Park has 12 hour parking for $5.

[TexasT]

Why don't we build light rail in Roseville and Eastpointe along Gratiot, which combined have about the same density as Midtown/Downtown? With the magical density boosting properties of light rail, both cities will quickly transition into real cities. Dan Gilbert could move Quicken Loans into the old Nail Studio.

Or how about light rail through Ferndale and Royal Oak? Give then current densities, it could just lead to the creation of a MEGA-CITY! We're talking NYC proportions here, people![/COLOR]

Because population density isn't the only factor, especially in a metro area like Detroit, where you have the majority living outside of the city limits and coming downtown to work, play, whatever. It's so similar to Houston, as I've mentioned, which has a similar setup - nobody lived or played downtown when I was in high school and college. I moved to its Midtown region in '08 and it was still pretty sparse. The train there doesn't run through its most dense areas either - but it hits downtown and the other "hot spots" like the medical center, museum district, and football stadium.

And they are discussing BRT through Ferndale and Royal Oak, all the way to Pontiac for those reasons.

I'm not sure who compared what we're trying to do in Detroit to NYC - that goes along with the hundreds of millions the city is having to put into the light rail system.

[rb336]

Why don't we build light rail in Roseville and Eastpointe along Gratiot, which combined have about the same density as Midtown/Downtown? With the magical density boosting properties of light rail, both cities will quickly transition into real cities. Dan Gilbert could move Quicken Loans into the old Nail Studio.

Or how about light rail through Ferndale and Royal Oak? Give then current densities, it could just lead to the creation of a MEGA-CITY! We're talking NYC proportions here, people![/COLOR]

While i sense a bit of sarcasm in your post, comprehensive transit is sorely needed and would do nothing but boost the region. I know there are plans somewhere to extend M1 all the way to Pontiac, to create lines on Gratiot and Michigan Avenue and possibly Grand River. It is costly, but it will be worth it in the long run

[chicagoforlife]

The most densely populated neighborhoods in Detroit are located near Hamtramck and in southwest Detroit.

You are talking about Hamtramck itself mainly correct? Because I just looked at Hamtramck has a density of almost 11,000 people. It's almost as dense as Chicago is.

[nain rouge]

I guess. I just wonder where all the density is along the 2.9 mile People Mover. I'm still convinced that transit is a secondary byproduct of success as opposed to a primary cause.

[TexasT]

I guess. I just wonder where all the density is along the 2.9 mile People Mover. I'm still convinced that transit is a secondary byproduct of success as opposed to a primary cause.

The People Mover may be 2.9 miles long, but it does not cover a 2.9 mile span. Transit is supposed to move people to an area quickly - I can walk faster than the PM gets me there in a lot of cases. I'm not sure how much significance there is to comparing the two vastly different lines.

FWIW, the PM as it was built is inherently a bad idea - from what I understand, it was supposed to be a more comprehensive system that was pared down, no?

[chicagoforlife]

Why don't we build light rail in Roseville and Eastpointe along Gratiot, which combined have about the same density as Midtown/Downtown? With the magical density boosting properties of light rail, both cities will quickly transition into real cities. Dan Gilbert could move Quicken Loans into the old Nail Studio.

Or how about light rail through Ferndale and Royal Oak? Give then current densities, it could just lead to the creation of a MEGA-CITY! We're talking NYC proportions here, people![/COLOR]

That's a good idea, make it so that the entire region is one. We have CTA L lines that go to suburbs but not very far into the suburbs but nonetheless they go there.

A lot of times when I'm talking about Detroit I need to look at Google Maps because I'm not 100% familiar with the area even though I have family that lives in the Detroit area.

Here is what I would say. You have Light Rail going up Woodward to Birmingham, you have it going up Gratiot to Roseville, you have it going out Grand River to wherever, then you have a line going out Michigan to the Airport. I think that if Detroit is going to become a real city there needs to be mass transit to the airport. Chicago has it going to both Midway and O'Hare.

[TexasT]

That's a good idea, make it so that the entire region is one.

That's the point of the Regional Transit Authority bills that were recently passed.

I think that if Detroit is going to become a real city there needs to be mass transit to the airport. Chicago has it going to both Midway and O'Hare.

Agreed and SEMCOG is working on that. And on a side note, please tell Houston and NYC to get mass transit to the airport. I agree that it's a necessity for a real city. I can't believe NYC doesn't have it.

[Detroitnerd]

Sorry, but you're clueless. Ever been to booming Midwestern cities like Indianapolis or Columbus? Where's the rail there? It's just a glaring deficiency in your jaded, I want to live in NYC but could never hack it there minds. Detroit's most glaring transit issues is in fact that the buses don't come on time.

Wow. Lame comeback. I want the buses to come on time too, but they should be feeder routes for trunk LRV lines that move more people than buses can. You seem to want an upgrade only to a point, Nain. What's wrong with an upgraydd?

[Bham1982]

I think that if Detroit is going to become a real city there needs to be mass transit to the airport. Chicago has it going to both Midway and O'Hare.

Why would this make Detroit a "real city"? Are you saying Cleveland is a "real city", and LA isn't?

Cleveland has had heavy rail to its airport for 40 years [[and it's a faster ride and easier transfer than at either Chicago airport), and yet Cleveland has worse population loss than Detroit, and a failed airport.

In contrast, LA has never had rail to LAX or John Wayne, and it's the second largest city in the U.S., and has had nonstop population and aviaton growth for basically forever.

[chicagoforlife]

Since we are talking about mass transit I think I should show you guys what I did one night when I was bored and I'm sure several people will love this because I made a complete system for Detroit.

I will break this down as much as possible and it's going to be a little long but anyone that is interested in mass transit in Detroit will love reading this. I don't have a special color code for these lines I just made them up and modeled it after the Chicago L. So here it goes:

Red Line [[Woodward Avenue): Trains are elevated heading down Woodward to Cadillac Square the line enters a subway just north of Grand Blvd. and continues as a subway for the rest of it's route. This line is one of two lines not to use the downtown monorail, the orange line being the other one. There is a transfer to the Green, Brown and Blue lines at Grand Circus Park. Trains use switch tracks under Cadillac Square to reverse direction and head back to 8 Mile. Stops include: 8 Mile, State Fair-Woodward, 7 Mile-Woodward, Savannah, McNicholas-Woodward, Midland, Manchester, Davison-Tyler, Glendale, Tennyson-Webb, Calvert, Edison-Arden Park, Hazelwood-Holbrook, Pingree, Marston-Delaware, Bethune, New Center-Detroit Amtrak Station [[between Baltimore and Milwaukee), Piquette, Ferry, Warren-Wayne State, Canfield, Parsons, Watson, Sibley, Montcalm, Grand Circus Park [[transfer to blue, brown and green lines), Merchants Row [[between Grand River and Gratiot), Cadillac Square [[transfer to orange line). Total: 28 stations. Line operates 24 hours daily.

Orange Line [[Michigan Avenue): Trains run in a subway the entire route, head up Merriman to Michigan then curves east to Cadillac Square. Stops include: Metro Airport, Ecorse, Van Born, Middlebelt, Inkster, Beech Daly, Telegraph, Military, Fairlane Town Center, Mercury-Dearborn Amtrak Station, Woodworth, Schaefer, Oakman, Wyoming-Michigan, Lonyo. Cecil, Livernois-Michigan, 31st, Roosevelt, 14th, Trumbull, 3rd, Cass-Michigan [[transfer to blue, brown and green lines), Shelby, Cadillac Square [[transfer to red line). Total: 25 stations. Line operates 24 hours daily.

Now the rest of the routes use the People Mover to turn around downtown.

Blue Line [[Grand River Avenue/Greenfield Road): The route is in a subway at the Northland station, the subway runs under the mall, Lodge Freeway and Greenfield Road before becoming elevated between Trojan and Chippewa Streets. The line then runs elevated over Greenfield Road until it's intersection with Grand River Avenue. At Grand River the line curves towards downtown following Grand River until curving at I-75 and curving once again at Park Avenue going into the downtown monorail at Park and Bagley. The line then follows the monorail tracks returning to Park and Bagley and out to Northland. Stops include: Northland Mall [[trains only stop here during mall hours, otherwise use 7 Mile-Greenfield to reverse direction), 7 Mile-Greenfield, Santa Maria, Fenkell, Sussex, Schoolcraft, Sorrento, Wyoming-Grand River, Plymouth, Livernois-Grand River, Riviera, Euclid, Dexter, Hudson, Hancock, Vermont, Ash, Spruce, Columbia, Grand Circus Park, Broadway, Cadillac Center, Greektown, Bricktown, Renaissance Center, Millander Center, Financial District, Joe Louis Arena, Cobo Center, Fort-Cass, Cass-Michigan [[transfer to orange line), Times Square. Total: 32 stations. Hours of operation: Monday-Thursday 6am-12am. Friday: 6am-2am. Saturday: 7am-2am. Sunday: 7am-12am.

Green Line [[Gratiot Avenue): Trains start at Eastland Center, follow 8 Mile to Gratiot then downtown. Line joins the monorail after turning at Beaubein making all stops in the circular loop, line exits the loop just after the Cadillac Center station curving back onto Gratiot to go outbound. Stops include: Eastland Center [[trains only stop here during mall hours, otherwise use Redmond to reverse direction), Redmond, State Fair-Gratiot, 7 Mile-Gratiot, Seymour, Houston Whittier, Gunston, Conner, Harper, Parker, Dueweke Park, Superior, Mack-Gratiot, Chene, Orleans, Brewery Park, St. Antoine, Greektown, Bricktown, Renaissance Center, Millander Center, Financial District, Joe Louis Arena, Cobo Center, Fort-Cass, Cass-Michigan [[transfer to orange line), Times Square, Grand Circus Park, Broadway, Cadillac Center. Total: 30 stations. Hours of operation: Monday-Thursday 6am-12am. Friday 6am-2am. Saturday 7am-2am. Sunday 7am-12am.


Brown Line [[Jefferson Avenue/Warren Avenue via Cadillac Blvd): Trains start at Cadiuex and Warren and follow Warren up to Cadillac Blvd. then follow Cadillac Blvd. to Jefferson west to Jefferson and Beaubien where it enters the downtown monorail, it completes the monorail from Renaissance Center to Bricktown then heads back to Cadieux and Warren. Stops include: Cadieux, Kensington, Berkshire, Alter, Dickerson, Eugene, French, Forest, Mack-Cadillac, Vernor, McClellan, Van Dyke, Grand Blvd, Mt. Elliott, McDougall, St. Aubin, Rivard, Renaissance Center, Millander Center, Financial District, Joe Louis Arena, Cobo Center, Fort-Cass, Cass-Michigan [[transfer to orange line), Times Square, Grand Circus Park, Broadway, Cadillac Center, Greektown and Bricktown. Hours of operation: Monday-Thursday 6am-12am. Friday 6am-2am. Saturday 7am-2am. Sunday 7am-12am.. Total: 30 stations.


Total: 103 stations.

So there is a mass transit system for Detroit.

[chicagoforlife]

Why would this make Detroit a "real city"? Are you saying Cleveland is a "real city", and LA isn't?

Cleveland has had heavy rail to its airport for 40 years [[and it's a faster ride and easier transfer than at either Chicago airport), and yet Cleveland has worse population loss than Detroit, and a failed airport.

In contrast, LA has never had rail to LAX or John Wayne, and it's the second largest city in the U.S., and has had nonstop population and aviaton growth for basically forever.

They would have to do a lot more to make it a real city but it would help and make the density rise.

[nain rouge]

Wow. Lame comeback. I want the buses to come on time too, but they should be feeder routes for trunk LRV lines that move more people than buses can. You seem to want an upgrade only to a point, Nain. What's wrong with an upgraydd?

Building light rail in Detroit is like building the Renaissance Center when downtown was already hallowing out. It's just going suck out investment desperately needed elsewhere. I get that the city isn't on the hook for the construction of the M-1 Rail Line, but I guarantee that running WILL cost the city long-term.

Hell, I'll even agree that the light rail will boost density some in Midtown - but it will be at the continued expense of most the rest of the city.

[TexasT]

Since we are talking about mass transit I think I should show you guys what I did one night when I was bored and I'm sure several people will love this because I made a complete system for Detroit.

I will break this down as much as possible and it's going to be a little long but anyone that is interested in mass transit in Detroit will love reading this. I don't have a special color code for these lines I just made them up and modeled it after the Chicago L. So here it goes:

Red Line [[Woodward Avenue): Trains are elevated heading down Woodward to Cadillac Square the line enters a subway just north of Grand Blvd. and continues as a subway for the rest of it's route. This line is one of two lines not to use the downtown monorail, the orange line being the other one. There is a transfer to the Green, Brown and Blue lines at Grand Circus Park. Trains use switch tracks under Cadillac Square to reverse direction and head back to 8 Mile. Stops include: 8 Mile, State Fair-Woodward, 7 Mile-Woodward, Savannah, McNicholas-Woodward, Midland, Manchester, Davison-Tyler, Glendale, Tennyson-Webb, Calvert, Edison-Arden Park, Hazelwood-Holbrook, Pingree, Marston-Delaware, Bethune, New Center-Detroit Amtrak Station [[between Baltimore and Milwaukee), Piquette, Ferry, Warren-Wayne State, Canfield, Parsons, Watson, Sibley, Montcalm, Grand Circus Park [[transfer to blue, brown and green lines), Merchants Row [[between Grand River and Gratiot), Cadillac Square [[transfer to orange line). Total: 28 stations. Line operates 24 hours daily.

Orange Line [[Michigan Avenue): Trains run in a subway the entire route, head up Merriman to Michigan then curves east to Cadillac Square. Stops include: Metro Airport, Ecorse, Van Born, Middlebelt, Inkster, Beech Daly, Telegraph, Military, Fairlane Town Center, Mercury-Dearborn Amtrak Station, Woodworth, Schaefer, Oakman, Wyoming-Michigan, Lonyo. Cecil, Livernois-Michigan, 31st, Roosevelt, 14th, Trumbull, 3rd, Cass-Michigan [[transfer to blue, brown and green lines), Shelby, Cadillac Square [[transfer to red line). Total: 25 stations. Line operates 24 hours daily.

Now the rest of the routes use the People Mover to turn around downtown.

Blue Line [[Grand River Avenue/Greenfield Road): The route is in a subway at the Northland station, the subway runs under the mall, Lodge Freeway and Greenfield Road before becoming elevated between Trojan and Chippewa Streets. The line then runs elevated over Greenfield Road until it's intersection with Grand River Avenue. At Grand River the line curves towards downtown following Grand River until curving at I-75 and curving once again at Park Avenue going into the downtown monorail at Park and Bagley. The line then follows the monorail tracks returning to Park and Bagley and out to Northland. Stops include: Northland Mall [[trains only stop here during mall hours, otherwise use 7 Mile-Greenfield to reverse direction), 7 Mile-Greenfield, Santa Maria, Fenkell, Sussex, Schoolcraft, Sorrento, Wyoming-Grand River, Plymouth, Livernois-Grand River, Riviera, Euclid, Dexter, Hudson, Hancock, Vermont, Ash, Spruce, Columbia, Grand Circus Park, Broadway, Cadillac Center, Greektown, Bricktown, Renaissance Center, Millander Center, Financial District, Joe Louis Arena, Cobo Center, Fort-Cass, Cass-Michigan [[transfer to orange line), Times Square. Total: 32 stations. Hours of operation: Monday-Thursday 6am-12am. Friday: 6am-2am. Saturday: 7am-2am. Sunday: 7am-12am.

Green Line [[Gratiot Avenue): Trains start at Eastland Center, follow 8 Mile to Gratiot then downtown. Line joins the monorail after turning at Beaubein making all stops in the circular loop, line exits the loop just after the Cadillac Center station curving back onto Gratiot to go outbound. Stops include: Eastland Center [[trains only stop here during mall hours, otherwise use Redmond to reverse direction), Redmond, State Fair-Gratiot, 7 Mile-Gratiot, Seymour, Houston Whittier, Gunston, Conner, Harper, Parker, Dueweke Park, Superior, Mack-Gratiot, Chene, Orleans, Brewery Park, St. Antoine, Greektown, Bricktown, Renaissance Center, Millander Center, Financial District, Joe Louis Arena, Cobo Center, Fort-Cass, Cass-Michigan [[transfer to orange line), Times Square, Grand Circus Park, Broadway, Cadillac Center. Total: 30 stations. Hours of operation: Monday-Thursday 6am-12am. Friday 6am-2am. Saturday 7am-2am. Sunday 7am-12am.


Brown Line [[Jefferson Avenue/Warren Avenue via Cadillac Blvd): Trains start at Cadiuex and Warren and follow Warren up to Cadillac Blvd. then follow Cadillac Blvd. to Jefferson west to Jefferson and Beaubien where it enters the downtown monorail, it completes the monorail from Renaissance Center to Bricktown then heads back to Cadieux and Warren. Stops include: Cadieux, Kensington, Berkshire, Alter, Dickerson, Eugene, French, Forest, Mack-Cadillac, Vernor, McClellan, Van Dyke, Grand Blvd, Mt. Elliott, McDougall, St. Aubin, Rivard, Renaissance Center, Millander Center, Financial District, Joe Louis Arena, Cobo Center, Fort-Cass, Cass-Michigan [[transfer to orange line), Times Square, Grand Circus Park, Broadway, Cadillac Center, Greektown and Bricktown. Hours of operation: Monday-Thursday 6am-12am. Friday 6am-2am. Saturday 7am-2am. Sunday 7am-12am.. Total: 30 stations.


Total: 103 stations.

So there is a mass transit system for Detroit.

Thanks. You got a few billion dollars also laying around? Come on, don't half-ass your plan!

[chicagoforlife]

That's the point of the Regional Transit Authority bills that were recently passed.



Agreed and SEMCOG is working on that. And on a side note, please tell Houston and NYC to get mass transit to the airport. I agree that it's a necessity for a real city. I can't believe NYC doesn't have it.

That's a good thing. I hope they get something planned out soon because I get tired of taking Amtrak into Detroit and having to take the #53 bus downtown.

NYC has it to a degree I think they have a monorail that takes you from JFK to one of the subway lines or something like that.

[chicagoforlife]

Thanks. You got a few billion dollars also laying around? Come on, don't half-ass your plan!

No problem lol. This would take probably about $2-3 billion.

[iheartthed]

Agreed and SEMCOG is working on that. And on a side note, please tell Houston and NYC to get mass transit to the airport. I agree that it's a necessity for a real city. I can't believe NYC doesn't have it.

JFK and Newark have direct rail connections. LaGuardia is the only one that doesn't.

[chicagoforlife]

It actually took me a few weeks to fine tune the system to where I had it when I posted it. I was using names of major streets for stations and some of those streets crossed more than one line so what I did was took a street a block off the major street and used that name instead but in some cases I didn't do that.

But for the most part I made that system up in about an hour.