Gilbert seeks ideas for developing Hudson's site in Detroit

**401don** · May-16-13, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by wolverine

^ That I like. A nice midrise base, somewhat broken up but preserves that canyon effect on Woodward with reasonable scale. The two towers are appropriately sized too.

Good find.

At 15-18 stories, the two towers would look rather small behind 8 storey buildings.

**gthomas** · May-16-13, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by wolverine

^ That I like. A nice midrise base, somewhat broken up but preserves that canyon effect on Woodward with reasonable scale. The two towers are appropriately sized too.

Good find.

Of course, it will be a 18-story building with 3 floors of ground floor retail and two 15-story towers atop consisting of residential and hotel [[No office), total 350 units in the residential tower and 500 room boutique hotel in the other tower. First floor retail will be restaurant only with outdoor seating like, TGIFridays- PF Chang- Slows-to-GO Downtown- Chili's..etc. Second and third floor is dedicated to one big box retailer like City Target or Somerset Collections.

**401don** · May-16-13, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by gthomas

Of course, it will be a 18-story building with 3 floors of ground floor retail and two 15-story towers atop consisting of residential and hotel [[No office), total 350 units in the residential tower and 500 room boutique hotel in the other tower. First floor retail will be restaurant only with outdoor seating like, TGIFridays- PF Chang- Slows-to-GO Downtown- Chili's..etc. Second and third floor is dedicated to one big box retailer like City Target or Somerset Collections.

23 apts. per floor and a 500 room "boutique" hotel? Nothing like internet urban design.

**Zug** · May-16-13, 09:36 PM

Yikes! That design from the Curbed article is horrendous :S Plus the renderings almost looked like negatives, so I couldn't get a realistic impression of what it could be.

Personally, the "superficial" part of me kinda hope they could build an actual skyscraper there...like a 1,000 foot skyscraper. I know the negative effects a skyscraper could potentially have on an area, but if done correctly, one could also be a boost the area. I'd much rather have 5 blocks with low-rise buildings than one with a skyscraper...but since we're talking about design for a single block...I still have hopes it could truly be something signature for Detroit [[and the Midwest, in general).

**wolverine** · May-17-13, 12:42 AM

This 15-18 story adherence is a bit silly. They can sister those columns and build 40-50 stories if they wanted. An 18 story apartment tower isn't all that economical anyway. Shooting for the 30-40 story range is a much better strategy.

**erikd** · May-17-13, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by AuburnSpeedster

It looks as if some of the first submissions are starting to trickle in.

http://detroit.curbed.com/archives/2...sive-tower.php

I don't know how I feel about this one, though. I can't say that I'm a fan of the design. I liked all the ones proposed by you guys here better. Haha

This is a terrible design. Did they even read the special conditions of the proposal?: "The sponsors would like to ensure a significant amount of the ground floor retains the ability to accommodate retail activity."

The people who designed that hideous peice of crap should have their architecture licenses revoked. No wonder so much of America's built environment looks like shit...

**Zug** · May-17-13, 04:51 PM

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This was the best looking part of the rendering

**Hypestyles** · May-19-13, 11:24 AM

is this a glorified "what if" contest, or does the "winning" design actually get taken seriously and implemented as a real design plan for the site?

**48205to24** · May-23-13, 01:23 PM

I believe Mr. Gilbert knows what he wants for this site but will add ammenities and ideas from this contest that he thinks are worthwhile.
I just hope he adds more fun things to do downtown options such as bowling, billiards, games..I would love a Dave and Busters [[but thats me).
For me if they cleaned up the underground parking and provided a dedicated entrance to the site. Allowing the opportunity for those of us who do not live downtown to park go in get your outfit, shoes, jewelry, a bite to each and head back to the car and leave. Call me lazy but spending 10 minutes looking for parking and then walking back to car [[possibly getting a ticket) with several bags is not appealing to me. Especially growing up in an age when you can pretty much purchase whatever you want [[coordinate outfits, etc) online.
The first floor should have large windows so that the retailers could put together fun and unique window displays.
Another outdoor park to rival Campus Martius would be nice. I remember in the early days of MGM they had a outside garden and the decor would change with the seasons. Christmas they a beautiful christmas display. I no longer pay attention when driving past, it looks pretty drab. This site could have a garden or area whose decor changes as the seasons change, celebrating the changing seasons of Michigan. There could be an area outside where artists could put temporary installations.
For the residents what about a rooftop deck or a high end penthouse restaurant with rooftop access.
The site should have direct access from People Mover, allowing workers throughout downtown to stop in during lunch. They could also put some type of auto museum at the site.
Its a great location and I hope he really does something awesome that everyone can enjoy not just people who live downtown.

**rex** · May-23-13, 01:37 PM

I like to propose an even larger Robocop statue for the site. Perhaps 9 or 10 stories tall to dissuade criminals from lawlessness in the downtown area.

**Spartan** · May-23-13, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by 48205to24

For me if they cleaned up the underground parking and provided a dedicated entrance to the site. Allowing the opportunity for those of us who do not live downtown to park go in get your outfit, shoes, jewelry, a bite to each and head back to the car and leave. Call me lazy but spending 10 minutes looking for parking and then walking back to car [[possibly getting a ticket) with several bags is not appealing to me. Especially growing up in an age when you can pretty much purchase whatever you want [[coordinate outfits, etc) online.

I would imagine there probably will be parking included in this development, but this line of thinking is not in Gilbert's plans. Gilbert is all about "placemaking" and spending time downtown. His goal is to increase pedestrian traffic and to keep people around the city for long periods of time. Frankly, that's what a city is. Your desired shopping experience is plentifully available in the suburbs, and that's where it should be. This kind of experience is exactly what places like Somerset, Great Lakes Crossing, Lakeside, Partridge Creek, etc all provide.

Originally Posted by 48205to24

The site should have direct access from People Mover, allowing workers throughout downtown to stop in during lunch. They could also put some type of auto museum at the site.
Its a great location and I hope he really does something awesome that everyone can enjoy not just people who live downtown.

The Broadway and Cadillac Center stops are both right across the street, essentially. I doubt they'd re-factor the DPM to add a stop specifically for this location. The M1 Rail will also have stops at Grand Circus and Campus Martius. I wonder if one at GR and Woodward would be too close to each of these. I definitely agree that it needs to be something that appeals to both downtown-dwellers as well as others.

**48205to24** · May-23-13, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by Spartan

I would imagine there probably will be parking included in this development, but this line of thinking is not in Gilbert's plans. Gilbert is all about "placemaking" and spending time downtown. His goal is to increase pedestrian traffic and to keep people around the city for long periods of time. Frankly, that's what a city is. Your desired shopping experience is plentifully available in the suburbs, and that's where it should be. This kind of experience is exactly what places like Somerset, Great Lakes Crossing, Lakeside, Partridge Creek, etc all provide.

Frankly, I would purchase the items online before driving all the way out to those places. Many cities have entire streets of nothing but retail. Since Detroit doesnt have that, make it more attractive for people who are willing to purchase items and then expand out. Why not make retail and shopping destinations in the city? Maybe not the Hudsons site maybe more midtown, but I know its a good idea. With the right mix of retail in a concentrated area and easy access to parking, now that would be placemaking at its finest for a great many people.

**downtownguy** · May-23-13, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by Spartan

I would imagine there probably will be parking included in this development, but this line of thinking is not in Gilbert's plans.

Have you seen how many garages Gilbert has bought in addition to the office buildings? Parking is definitely a part of the line of thinking in his plans.

**Burnsie** · May-23-13, 10:59 PM

Gistok wrote: "
Well I think that the perfect fit for that spot is something that complements the surroundings... and NOT sticks out like a sore thumb."

A great building should not necessarily worry about "complementing the surroundings." With that kind of thinking, we would never have gotten the General Motors Building, since the only things around there at the time were houses and small storefronts. Maybe in 1913 you also would have said that the Michigan Central Depot "sticks out like a sore thumb."

I look forward to a bold, unapologetic design on the Hudson's block that makes its own statement. Great cities have all kinds of different building designs mingling with each other.

**stasu1213** · May-24-13, 07:10 AM

I think the building for this site should be designed for multipurpose use. A simple design that will blend in with it's surroundings. It doesn't need to be a 30 story condo skyscraper with retail on the first floor. The front of the building should be pedestrian friendly adding to the street wall that line Woodward. I will say that a 10 story building would be sufficient for the spot. It should be a multipurpose building that could be easily converted to the trend or direction that he area will go to.

**Spartan** · May-24-13, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by downtownguy

Have you seen how many garages Gilbert has bought in addition to the office buildings? Parking is definitely a part of the line of thinking in his plans.

Sure, parking is an important necessity, especially with the lack of public transit, but he's not looking to integrate in such a way that encourages patrons to park, shop and go. He wants them to park and stay for a while.

**48205to24** · May-24-13, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by Spartan

Sure, parking is an important necessity, especially with the lack of public transit, but he's not looking to integrate in such a way that encourages patrons to park, shop and go. He wants them to park and stay for a while.

I agree Mr. Gilbert and the Hudsons site may not be right the developer and location for a large mix of concentrated retail in Detroit. However, if he wants people to stay for a while whether to sit in a park or go to a bar, there has to be more options than most of the 2 hour metered parking in the area.
I am still rooting for a Dave and Buster's or similar venue, along with another park, a restaurant with dedicated live music and bands, etc. More venues that provide a year-round consistent amount of fun and entertainment, besides the festivals, games and special events.

**southen** · May-24-13, 12:31 PM

why would you put another park one block away from our most successful "urban" park and downtown's gathering place? that seems stupid, especially when you have the library facing the hudson's block and capitol park another stones throw. if you are really adventurous you can even go a full three blocks to the north and hang out in grand circus... lets work on density.

**rjlj** · May-24-13, 01:50 PM

Strongly Agree.

Originally Posted by southen

why would you put another park one block away from our most successful "urban" park and downtown's gathering place? that seems stupid, especially when you have the library facing the hudson's block and capitol park another stones throw. if you are really adventurous you can even go a full three blocks to the north and hang out in grand circus... lets work on density.

**Spartan** · May-24-13, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by southen

why would you put another park one block away from our most successful "urban" park and downtown's gathering place? that seems stupid, especially when you have the library facing the hudson's block and capitol park another stones throw. if you are really adventurous you can even go a full three blocks to the north and hang out in grand circus... lets work on density.

Yeah, a park would be silly. If there's one thing downtown Detroit does NOT have a shortage of, it's city parks.

**48205to24** · May-26-13, 05:45 AM

Originally Posted by southen

why would you put another park one block away from our most successful "urban" park and downtown's gathering place? that seems stupid, especially when you have the library facing the hudson's block and capitol park another stones throw. if you are really adventurous you can even go a full three blocks to the north and hang out in grand circus... lets work on density.

Wow harsh, its my opinion and Im not going to feed into your negativity. Anyway, the contest is ending soon and it will be fun to see what everyone has come up with.

**DetroitPlanner** · May-26-13, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by southen

why would you put another park one block away from our most successful "urban" park and downtown's gathering place? that seems stupid, especially when you have the library facing the hudson's block and capitol park another stones throw. if you are really adventurous you can even go a full three blocks to the north and hang out in grand circus... lets work on density.

If you look at whole block developments in cities such as Chicago and New York, developers were given incentives [[more floors, trade offs on set-backs) for providing plaza areas at the base of buildings. There is nothing wrong with a small area being outside, no need to develop the entire block. These are actually good for placemaking. Everyone wants an interesting out of window view as opposed to a blank wall.

With that logic, we should plop buildings atop of Grand Circus, Capitol, Harmonie Parks as well as Hart Plaza. Even better. Pave them and turn them into parking lots. We need more parking down here because we will have more workers once this gets built!

**Spartan** · June-05-13, 12:33 PM

Entries will be on display this Saturday and Sunday at City Loft. Come check them out and vote on your favorites. Sounds like there will be a good amount of free stuff as well. I'm excited for this.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...y-this-weekend

**Gistok** · June-05-13, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

If you look at whole block developments in cities such as Chicago and New York, developers were given incentives [[more floors, trade offs on set-backs) for providing plaza areas at the base of buildings. There is nothing wrong with a small area being outside, no need to develop the entire block. These are actually good for placemaking. Everyone wants an interesting out of window view as opposed to a blank wall.

With that logic, we should plop buildings atop of Grand Circus, Capitol, Harmonie Parks as well as Hart Plaza. Even better. Pave them and turn them into parking lots. We need more parking down here because we will have more workers once this gets built!

Many of the plaza's that you describe in NYC or Chicago are not exactly friendly spaces. The NYC classic Seagram's Building was all the rage back in the 1950s, with it's lack of setbacks and public plaza. However it was not successful as a public space. People did not warm up to it.

Spaces such as that around One Woodward Avenue may have statuary... but are not inviting for pedestrians. Ditto for a lot of Hart Plaza.

And your second paragraph is a Slippery Slope logic fallacy... not a valid argument.

**Jason** · June-05-13, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Many of the plaza's that you describe in NYC or Chicago are not exactly friendly spaces. The NYC classic Seagram's Building was all the rage back in the 1950s, with it's lack of setbacks and public plaza. However it was not successful as a public space. People did not warm up to it.

Spaces such as that around One Woodward Avenue may have statuary... but are not inviting for pedestrians. Ditto for a lot of Hart Plaza.

And your second paragraph is a Slippery Slope logic fallacy... not a valid argument.

I agree that the Hudson's block is not appropriate for a park, but the Seagram Building's plaza in NYC is successful. http://vimeo.com/6821934 [[great study/documentary/book about the design of public spaces)