Gilbert seeks ideas for developing Hudson's site in Detroit

[wolverine]

You are saying that CityTargets should be compared to department stores, even though they're 5% the size of urban department stores, but shouldn't be compared to drug stores, even though they're only twice the size of urban drug stores.

Sounds to me that they're alot closer to drug stores than department stores, which was my point.

And the real gap is even closer. Duane Reade has 30,000-40,000 square foot stores in development. These new Duane Reades have clothing, deli counters, and even some simple appliances. If you go to Europe, you see even bigger drug stores, that are almost exactly like CityTarget. The one all over Paris is called Monoprix.

For those that speak French, this is basically a CityTarget. http://www.monoprix.fr/

I never said they were identical to traditional urban department stores, but more along those lines. Show me your sources for square footages. I'm not yet convinced. It just seems ridiculous as I walked into the largest Walgreens in America and the new City target. They are completely different. And the city target was definitely a department store experience with furniture, clothes and changing rooms, scattered registers and personal staff assistance plus an in-house restaurant. I cant really buy into someone's logic who isnt a regular at these places that the stores I visit daily are nearly the same. They aren't. Show me sources.

[stasu1213]

I would love to see a smaller modern replica of the Hudsons building on that site. It could still have retail and housing

[raptor56]

Since the Hudson's block is so big, I wonder if it would be possible to nest parking in the core of the building, leaving all the human habitats open to street views?

Why do they need more parking when there's already 750 spots underneath?

Between the City of Detroit municipal vehicles [[garage is owned by the City), a shload of Quicken folks, and your everyday random visitors to Campus Martius and Comerica Park, that underground lot is full. If you get in there after 8:30am on a week day, you're parking in the back of level C or on the bottom level D. The City currently is not issuing any new monthly pass [[I had a coworker try to buy one recently), and I doubt the situation will get any better, even with the new "Z Lot" Gilbert is building down the street. They'll more than likely move employees from some of the other far flung lots over to the new, closer one.

[DetroitPlanner]

In most of the U.S., excepting NYC, they aren't building many urban department stores. And, you're right, the ones they're building tend to be small.

The only exception I can think of is a new Nordstrom flagship in Manhattan, and a pretty big Macys in the Bronx.

Other than that, I can't think of any big urban style full-service department stores, though there are some smaller, more limited service, or more quasi-auto-oriented ones that have gone up.

Lets compare

Nordstom Manhattan: 285k sq ft - middle of densest place in US
Nordstom Chicago Miricle Mile: 260k sq ft - 2nd only to Manhattan.
Nordstrom Troy: 240k sq ft - auto centric

Not much difference.

Macy's Herald Sq: 2.1m sq ft
Macy's Brooklyn [[Old A&S dept store) 1 m sq ft.

A&S was merged into Federated [[Macy's) in 1994. Brooklyn was its flagship.

[rb336]

Where do real New Yorkers shop? Century 21. let's get one of those

[detmsp]

is even nothing like normal Targets, which are usually twice the size.

You simply don't know what you're talking about. It has all the same departments as a regular Target, just reduced product selection. When Rite Aid starts selling dresses, TVs and furniture you can tell me that City Target is more like a drug store than a regular Target.

[detroitbob]

When I walked thru the new City Target in the old Carson Pirie Scott State St Chgo store I didn't see auto or lawn/garden and most departments were not greatly reduced in selection...the store used more flexible fixturing allowing for quick changes. 3 floors...busy...convenience departments on the maim floor and food on 2. Very well done

[gthomas]

I was thinking, doing some math a little. Gilbert mentioned he's working with up to "80" retailers...ok, makes we wonder. Where will all these retailers go, is there enough available storefronts on Woodward, will they have multiple retailers in one building? That's a pretty intense number of retailers, Gilbert has something up his sleeves. I can't wait to see how he lay out his retail plans.

[DetroitPlanner]

I was thinking, doing some math a little. Gilbert mentioned he's working with up to "80" retailers...ok, makes we wonder. Where will all these retailers go, is there enough available storefronts on Woodward, will they have multiple retailers in one building? That's a pretty intense number of retailers, Gilbert has something up his sleeves. I can't wait to see how he lay out his retail plans.

Think about it this way, there is plenty of underutilized retail space in many of the office buildings he owns. The old smaller department stores along woodward can be broken into several retail outlets. The Z-garage will have lots of main florr retail. Add to this the Trappers Alley portion of the Greektown Casino and the 1001 Woodward building/parking structure and you have quite a bit of retail space to play with. I am certain that the Hudson block will be able to hold even more retail.

[gthomas]

I would love to see a smaller modern replica of the Hudsons building on that site. It could still have retail and housing

This is pretty descent.

[Detroitnerd]

Well I think that the perfect fit for that spot is something that complements the surroundings... and NOT sticks out like a sore thumb.

I like it, Gistok. Ideally, I'd like a plan that not only preserves continuous streetwall, but has is tastefully integrated with the rest of the streetwall.

Unfortunately, most of the nods to our architectural heritage have been cast in cheap fascia and trucked in on oversize trailers to be assembled like building blocks. I would hope for better.

[gthomas]

Some sources where told to me [[Inside *Gilbert associate"), that I can not disclose at this time. Rumor has it, H&M, Urban Outfitters, CityTarget and LAFitness are definitely one of the 80+ retail, location is still being determined. Exciting!!

[Zug]

That is exciting gthomas. Like others from Detroit, I have developed a "wait & see" approach to Detroit development...but given Gilbert's level of investment and open talk of his goals for downtown, he has made me optimistic about what he's doing.

Years ago, I once had faith in Illitch. But after a couple decades of rumors of Illitch developments only ammounting to parking lots, I turned cynical, lol.

[401don]

Some sources where told to me [[Inside *Gilbert associate"), that I can not disclose at this time. Rumor has it, H&M, Urban Outfitters, CityTarget and LAFitness are definitely one of the 80+ retail, location is still being determined. Exciting!!

I'm certain he's talking to any decent retailer who might sign a lease. "Rumor has it" is correct. If he gets 12-15 leases signed I would be thrilled. Street level retail, especially in cold climates, is still a very hard sell in a lot of cities with better demographics than Detroit.

[gthomas]

I'm certain he's talking to any decent retailer who might sign a lease. "Rumor has it" is correct. If he gets 12-15 leases signed I would be thrilled. Street level retail, especially in cold climates, is still a very hard sell in a lot of cities with better demographics than Detroit.

He already have more than 3 dozen retailers leases signed and committed already, that's no problem. Cold climates should be a problem, Chicago and New York is doing fine...why not Detroit. I don't think either, "commitment" nor "cold weather" to play a factor in not coming here. No question that we will have tons of retail in coming years, not to mention "Ilitch $650 million entertainment district which include more "retail. I heard his list of retail is going to be impressive, lower Woodward WILL be filled from Grand Circus Park to Jefferson, possibly flooding over to other thoroughfares throughout downtown.

Have you shopped during the winter on MagMile in Chicago? Its cold and windy...retailer know people will still shop no matter what type of condition. Why shall it be a issue here in Detroit?

[401don]

He already have more than 3 dozen retailers leases signed and committed already, that's no problem. Cold climates should be a problem, Chicago and New York is doing fine...why not Detroit. I don't think either, "commitment" nor "cold weather" to play a factor in not coming here. No question that we will have tons of retail in coming years, not to mention "Ilitch $650 million entertainment district which include more "retail. I heard his list of retail is going to be impressive, lower Woodward WILL be filled from Grand Circus Park to Jefferson, possibly flooding over to other thoroughfares throughout downtown.

Have you shopped during the winter on MagMile in Chicago? Its cold and windy...retailer know people will still shop no matter what type of condition. Why shall it be a issue here in Detroit?

Paging Skulker - Help!

[canuck]

I fuggin like Detroit.

[rbdetsport]

gthomas, where are you getting your information? He has leases signed already? I highly doubt that is the case as he plans to release the retail in 2015. I like to think you know what you are talking about, but it is hard to believe.

[MSUguy]

Here are some examples I'd like to see. [[Some are too tall but maybe a scaled-back to 15-18 stories.) Maybe 3 discinct towers on a 3-5 story staggered base.Attachment 18466Attachment 18467Attachment 18468Attachment 18469Attachment 18470Attachment 18471

I think this is where the design is likely headed a couple residential towers over a base of retail. Anyway Gilbert has posted the official rules of the contest, submissions need to be in by May 31 and the results will be announced on Jun 12. First prize is a very cool $15,000.

http://hudsons.opportunitydetroit.com/program/



Community Objectives

• The Hudson’s site is located in a rapidly redeveloping section of downtown Detroit. The site has been empty for many years, a source of frustration to residents, who would like to see it once again provide an important architectural addition to the city. Some of the current community objectives for the site include:
• Filling a gap in the existing urban context between Campus Martius Park and Grand Circus Park.
• Helping to activate street life downtown
• Helping rebuild the Woodward corridor
• Providing a powerful new architectural addition to the city
• Generating attention to positive developments within the city
• Signifying rebirth in Detroit
• Presenting forward-thinking ideas

Site Description

The Hudson’s site is located on Woodward Avenue between East Grand River Avenue and Gratiot Avenue, in the heart of downtown Detroit. It is one block north of Campus Martius Park and two blocks south of Grand Circus Park. The original Hudson’s building was demolished in 1998 and currently remains a vacant lot comprising 92,421 square feet [[420 feet by 220 feet). The site is situated atop an existing four-story underground parking garage, which must be kept. The foundation can bear no more than 18 above-grade stories. Existing column grids must be used to support any above-grade structure. The stairwells and elevators from the parking deck reach above ground and cannot be moved; they should be creatively incorporated into the first floor design.

Special Conditions

Entrants [[as defined herein) can propose anything for the site with the exception of pure open space or a park. Although a proposal may incorporate open spaces and plazas, they should not be the principle feature. Entries that propose a park or a use for the site that is predominantly open space will not be considered.
As this primary development site is crucial to creating a new vision for the future of Detroit, the sponsors would like to ensure a significant amount of the ground floor retains the ability to accommodate retail activity.

[AuburnSpeedster]

It looks as if some of the first submissions are starting to trickle in.

http://detroit.curbed.com/archives/2...sive-tower.php

I don't know how I feel about this one, though. I can't say that I'm a fan of the design. I liked all the ones proposed by you guys here better. Haha

[401don]

It looks as if some of the first submissions are starting to trickle in.

http://detroit.curbed.com/archives/2...sive-tower.php

I don't know how I feel about this one, though. I can't say that I'm a fan of the design. I liked all the ones proposed by you guys here better. Haha

Wow. They managed to incorporate everything we don't want into one cohesive design.

[DetroitPlanner]

Wow. They managed to incorporate everything we don't want into one cohesive design.

I agree. Simply awful. It takes the ugliest of the brutalist movement and marries it with the worst of the international style. Well at least the Ren Cen will have something that makes it look like a masterpiece!

[1953]

I am not an architect, so I won't be submitting anything, but here is my idea for the site. Maybe someone can draw it up and send it in. You can even keep all the money, I don't care. I just want to see this built...

Imagine a u-shaped building that takes up the entire block, with the inside of the u facing Woodward. The north and south wings of the building would be 10-12 story residential blocks, tied to a central officer tower of 18 stories.

In the center of the u, again, facing Woodward, would be a massive public art work, involving either a fountain or statue of some kind [[not Robocop). I'm thinking of a public space like Graumann's Chinese Theater in Hollywood, where people feel the need to visit when they come to Detroit.

The building would be clad in limestone or a reasonable facsimile and illuminated vertically at night. The north and south wings would have gentle sloping terra cotta roofs, and the central tower would have a spire and steep terra cotta roof, in omage to the Fisher Building.

This structure would have zero setback on all sides, other than the courtyard facing Woodward, and it would have ground floor retail on the north and south wings and on the east side of the office block [[Farmer Street side). The inner court yard on Woodward would have an impressive office building entrance, complete with brass doors and a door man.

[gthomas]

This is THE best option for me for the Hudson site. It just work for me and can fit very well in the area, but standout as a prime development.

[wolverine]

^ That I like. A nice midrise base, somewhat broken up but preserves that canyon effect on Woodward with reasonable scale. The two towers are appropriately sized too.

Good find.