Has Detroit Common Council taken any budget reductions?...

[bailey]

Meaningless PR cuts. Wow. And on we go. I'm not sure even bankruptcy will change that attitude. Wow.

They are meaningless when it's a drop in the bucket and there are much bigger cuts necessary. hundreds of millions in structural deficits. 15 billion in long term debt. 60 cents of every dollar in revenue going to salary or pension obligations.... cutting a few staffers pay by 10% is nothing but PR. oooh, look at us being all austere, we can't seem to figure out how to get belle isle offloaded to the state to save 6 mill a year, but yea couple of hundred thou saved on staffing is REALLY gonna turn the city around.

[Eber Brock Ward]

They are meaningless when it's a drop in the bucket and there are much bigger cuts necessary. hundreds of millions in structural deficits. 15 billion in long term debt. 60 cents of every dollar in revenue going to salary or pension obligations.... cutting a few staffers pay by 10% is nothing but PR. oooh, look at us being all austere, we can't seem to figure out how to get belle isle offloaded to the state to save 6 mill a year, but yea couple of hundred thou saved on staffing is REALLY gonna turn the city around.

I think this view is partially right and partially wrong.

Read the information published in the Free Press today: http://www.freep.com/article/2013022...text|FRONTPAGE

liabilities consume 35 cents to 42 cents of every general fund dollar

Milliman outlines three scenarios for each fund. In the worst, by 2017, the Police and Fire Retirement system would have to absorb 83% of the city's payroll to maintain funding at 72%

The outlook for the general system isn't much better. If Milliman's numbers are right, the best-case scenario would see the city's contributions climb to 36% of payroll by 2016 to fund the system at 53%; the worst projections would see the city's contribution rise to 70% of payroll by 2016 to fund the pensions at 45%.

Bankruptcy or a structured settlement is the only answer. The two 500-pount gorillas in the room are [[1) pensions/retiree health care benefits and [[2) bonds.

Each need to feel the pain, just as regular citizens are already feeling the pain with crappy services [[except for garbage pickup). Everyone needs to feel it like the citizens do, not just the pensioners and not just the bondholders.

[Wesley Mouch]

...
Bankruptcy or a structured settlement is the only answer. The two 500-pount gorillas in the room are [[1) pensions/retiree health care benefits and [[2) bonds.

Each need to feel the pain, just as regular citizens are already feeling the pain with crappy services [[except for garbage pickup). Everyone needs to feel it like the citizens do, not just the pensioners and not just the bondholders.

I was in a pointless debate with a few here whether cuts to council staff were 'meaningless'... Its not about the savings, its about the attitude.

EBW is right. Everyone must feel some pain. Citizens already do. Bondholders who are making a good return on their investment must [[that's why their getting the good returns, btw). And so must the workers. Everyone.

And here's what I haven't heard explicitly said.

The problem of Detroit is bigger than Detroit, and needs to be addressed at a broader level. Its been proven that it can't/won't be done at a local level. So its gonna take some cash from the outside -- bondholders, pensioners [[who mostly live elsewhere I'll bet), and taxpayers State-wide.

They won't do this unless Detroit applies reasonable reforms and shows that they'll stick to it.

When your city council is an order of magnitude more expensive than it should be, it tells the outside stakeholders that you just don't care about 'a few hundred thousand a year'.

If we don't care, then they aren't gonna care. They won't put money into a sinkhole -- even if each of the individual problems aren't big enough to be 'meaningful'.

If you want help with your throat problem, you start by quitting cigarettes.

[Mark Smiles]

I was in a pointless debate with a few here whether cuts to council staff were 'meaningless'... Its not about the savings, its about the attitude.

EBW is right. Everyone must feel some pain. Citizens already do. Bondholders who are making a good return on their investment must [[that's why their getting the good returns, btw). And so must the workers. Everyone.

And here's what I haven't heard explicitly said.

The problem of Detroit is bigger than Detroit, and needs to be addressed at a broader level. Its been proven that it can't/won't be done at a local level. So its gonna take some cash from the outside -- bondholders, pensioners [[who mostly live elsewhere I'll bet), and taxpayers State-wide.

They won't do this unless Detroit applies reasonable reforms and shows that they'll stick to it.

When your city council is an order of magnitude more expensive than it should be, it tells the outside stakeholders that you just don't care about 'a few hundred thousand a year'.

If we don't care, then they aren't gonna care. They won't put money into a sinkhole -- even if each of the individual problems aren't big enough to be 'meaningful'.

If you want help with your throat problem, you start by quitting cigarettes.

Why shouldn’t the voters who voted for the debt be liable for the results of their votes?

Voters in Detroit vote for bonds they have no intention of paying off and you expect voters/taxpayers in Grand Rapids or Warren to pick up the slack?

Don’t the people of Grand Rapids or Warren have their own bonds to pay off?

Hells bells, why not let everyone run up their credit cards, and lets force out neighbors to pay it off.

One more question, Shouldn’t those calling for Detroit to go bankrupt be first in line to loan Detroit money before the bankruptcy? It cant be they expect others to do what they are unwilling to do.

[Wesley Mouch]

Why shouldn’t the voters who voted for the debt be liable for the results of their votes?

Voters in Detroit vote for bonds they have no intention of paying off and you expect voters/taxpayers in Grand Rapids or Warren to pick up the slack?

Don’t the people of Grand Rapids or Warren have their own bonds to pay off?

Hells bells, why not let everyone run up their credit cards, and lets force out neighbors to pay it off.

One more question, Shouldn’t those calling for Detroit to go bankrupt be first in line to loan Detroit money before the bankruptcy? It cant be they expect others to do what they are unwilling to do.

What I am saying is that the voters who approved much of the debt and pension obligations MOVED to the burbs. They're who I think should also pay.

You can't move out of Detroit after voting for a fool and then disavowing the consequences.

This problem was created by us all to some degree. Moving out. Leaving laws in place that allowed retirement in your 40's while life expectancy moved upward. Subsidizing transportation to the burbs while ignoring Detroit. Building your own suburban schools while leaving Detroit to carry the debt burden you created without your contribution.

My solution. No support from anyone in the form of EM/EFM/loans, etc. until Detroit cleans its own act up. And that includes as a flagship reducing the size of council costs. Heal thyself, and then society will help.

[Honky Tonk]

My solution. No support from anyone in the form of EM/EFM/loans, etc. until Detroit cleans its own act up. And that includes as a flagship reducing the size of council costs. Heal thyself, and then society will help.

I agree. There might be a 500 pound elephant in the room, but there are a boatload of smaller rats running around as well.