Belle Isle Police Crackdown

[jt1]

If you want to charge non residents a fee maybe the non residents might want to pull their tax dollars that come to Detroit from Lansing.
The residents have trashed their own city for years. It's amazing how clean and stable things are once you cross Telegraph or Eight Mile.
You want to charge a fee, make it for everyone.

Or the city could choose to close th park off to non-residents like some communities chose to do. The state does not fund BI so your argument is very flawed.

Can I go to any community in SE Michigan and use their parks or libraries? Why should Detroit be different. Maybe the city should ask for their HCMA dollars back - city residents are paying for their own parks [[open and free to all) and regional parks.

Maybe the residents of Michigan should ask why the State just committed a package of 800MM to keep two GM plants open in Oakland County. If we are throwing pointless arguments out there I figured I'd do the same.

[jt1]

For Daddeeo:

Here is something for you. A quick peek at your profile shows you live in Northville. A quick peek at Northville parks and rec site states, in regards to park activities:

Can I participate if I am not a Northville resident?
Non-residents may participate in Northville Parks and Recreation activities. Non-resident fees for classes are $5.00 over the listed base price. Non-resident registrations are accepted a minimum of two days after resident registration, allowing Northville residents preference:

"Can I participate if I am not a Northville resident?
Non-residents may participate in Northville Parks and Recreation activities. Non-resident fees for classes are $5.00 over the listed base price. Non-resident registrations are accepted a minimum of two days after resident registration, allowing Northville residents preference."


How dare they charge more for non-residents and give sign up preference to non-residents.

And this:

"Reservation: Outdoor facilities: To reserve a baseball diamond or soccer field, residents may contact the Northville Parks and Recreation Department at 248-349-0203 x 9948 during normal business hours or email us."

So as a non-resident I can't even reserve a field in a Northville park. How dare they!

And:

"Residents now have access to an indoor swimming pool, two additional gymnasiums, multi-purpose classrooms and fitness rooms. In addition, larger administrative offices for Northville Parks and Recreation were constructed during the renovation in summer 2001"

So as a non-resident I can't use your pool. I really hope the State custs Northville's funding. I am outraged!

So are you recommending a different set of rules for the city and your community? I'm sure nobody in SE Michigan would ever think about doing such a thing.

[Meddle]

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

These are all the same discussions we had in the 70's and 80's. Kids and their hot rods coming on the Island after dark, closing the bridge at a certain time, charging fees, etc., etc.

[Bobl]

I admit it. In the late sixties, I was among a group of young people who tossed detergent into the Scott Fountain. Bali Hai, Ripple, and a little mother nature contributed to the foolishness.
There was some discussion in one of the local papers about the deterioration of the Island after this incident.
I wish that was the worst of the great Island's problems now.

Man, it's good to get that off my chest!

[daddeeo]

I never heard of anyone getting charged for going on a park in Northville. Taking classes and that other stuff is not what I'm talking about.
I get charged for the public library in Detroit as a non resident. They get state money to keep it open if I'm not mistaken.
You'll also notice Northville parks and the city aren't trashed by their residents either.

[jt1]

I never heard of anyone getting charged for going on a park in Northville. Taking classes and that other stuff is not what I'm talking about.
I get charged for the public library in Detroit as a non resident. They get state money to keep it open if I'm not mistaken..

You'll also notice Northville parks and the city aren't trashed by their residents either.[/quote]

Why did you ignore the fact that I can't use the pool, I can't reserve facilities, etc.

You get charged for use of the library as a non-resident because residents are taxed in our property tax. The libraries are subsidized by the residents and you get the use them. Your nominal fee is much less than anything else that could be derived for the cost. But for the sake of making sure we have all the facts - how much do you pay for use of the library?

Now let's talk about libraries - Does Northville have a library system? If so, is it resident only? If not, you aren't paying anything in taxes for a library system - residents of Detroit are.

You'll also notice Northville parks and the city aren't trashed by their residents either.

Hellllooooo red herring. What does this have to do with the fact that I can't use many service in Northville yet the thought of paying for use of a park reduces you to the same old tired argument of 'well then maybe I don't want the state funding anything there'

So as a non-resident you have just as much access to any facility on BI but I can't use your pool, I can't reserve fields for my use and I can only participate in activities if there is space left after the window for residents to register.

Sorry your argument is pretty sad. But at least you have 'Northville residents don't trash their city' which is pretty much completely off topic subject. I will agree that residents of Detroit need to take better care of our city but that still does not mean that everything in the city shoudl be free and accesible to you while your city maintains a different standof what I may or may not use.

Should I do a little more searching to determine what I can't access as a non-resident of Northville? Your attitude is a wonderful illustration with why this region will never advance.

[jt1]

PS - here is a little information about what the state pays for DPL: $0

"By virtue of the Detroit Public Library’s longstanding designation as a statewide resource, all Michigan residents have enjoyed free access to the Library’s resources and services for many years. Last year, however, the state of Michigan completely eliminated the budget line item that supported free access to the Detroit Public Library [[DPL) by all residents of Michigan. Since 2002, the Detroit Public Library has lost $6 million in state funding. This loss of state funds has adversely affected the Library's ability to continue to support statewide use of its
resources."

Can you please thank some Detroit residents for their support [[through only their tax dollars) of the Detroit Public Library System. That would be very nice of you.

And to add: If you want to use the parallel to 'nobody paying to go to a park in Northville' - You don't have to pay a penny to go to a library in the DPL system.

So let's summarize:

Detroit offers: Free access to parks, same access to activities as Detroit residents in the parks, access to reserve fields the same as residents. Fee access to the DPL system.

Northville offers: I can go to the park, I can't reserve fields, use the pool and can only register for a class [[at a higher rate) if there are openings after residents have signed up.

It really is unfortunate that you poor Northville residents are getting shafted by the city of Detroit's resources.

Should we talk about funding for the museums? We can compare how much the city of Northville pays and how much the city of Detroit pays to maintain the DIA, CHWMAAH, DHM, etc.

Feel free to point out an errors in the statement above. i will happily concede that I am wrong. But hey, you can fall back on 'at least our residents take care of our city' as that is pertinent to the conversation.

[funjon1]

Just spent the entire day on the island. Saw no extraordinary police presence there, nor did I see a need for it. Extremely crowded but the majority of the people were laid back. Couple of jackasses but you get that with any large crowd.

[Meddle]

Do non-city residents even go to Belle Isle any more?

[ZRX Doug]

Do non-city residents even go to Belle Isle any more?

Yup. I live in the city, and frequently take my suburbanite mom & sister to visit the island.
I live on the west side, but frequently work on the east..I like to eat lunch on the island when I'm in the area..but that's a habit I'll drop in a hurry if they ever start charging me an entrance fee.

[jt1]

The island will still be trashed by residents.

You are all stupid if you think non-resident fees are going to help... less people will come [[not that many do as is it is). A MAJORITY IF NOT ALL of the reason for this crackdown is from resident use of the park...

That may be true but those same resident pay taxes to the city which supplies the services to maintain the island [[I am certainly not excusing the behavior). Although some residents are complete trash and treat the island like trash they are paying taxes.

Your argument that non-residents do not trash the island [[which may or may not be true) does not change the fact that they are not paying taxes to the city to support the clean up on the island. Resources aren't free.

I support charging all cars a nominal fee so I don;t think charging only non-residents is the solution but I have to ask a question:

What benefit does the city or island derive from visitors or non-residents that pay no money to be on the island and pay no taxes to support it?

Would your home be more valuable if you had more people living there?

[ZRX Doug]

What benefit does the city or island derive from visitors or non-residents that pay no money to be on the island and pay no taxes to support it?

The same benefit that ANY place of interest provides.
Business which is local to the island reaps the benefits thru increased sales to "tourists."

Big difference between the economics of a home and those of a tourist attraction..

[jt1]

Doug - On paper I agree with that point. In practice however I doubt that non-residents that go to BI add much to the local economy.

If there is data to prove me wrong I would love to see it. I have family and friends that go to BI and the vast, vast majority of the time the go to the island then go home.

[ZRX Doug]

Sorry, the only data I can provide is anecdotal..when I decide to do lunch on the island, the meal is purchased locally. When I take my mom & sis to the island, the meals are purchased locally, and usually the casinos will get some of their cash as well. If my car/motorcycle happens to need gas on any of these trips, the fuel is purchased locally.

Charge me for the island entrance, odds are extremely good that my cash will end up in Redford, which is closer to my westside home.

[Meddle]

Charge me for the island entrance, odds are extremely good that my cash will end up in Redford, which is closer to my westside home.

Rouge Park wasn't too bad. Eliza Howell turned into a drug den and they started closing it after dark.

[Jmil]

Few thoughts for you to consider.

1) Just because you don't see a lot of white people on Belle Isle does not mean there aren't a lot of non residents. In case you haven't heard, a lot of Black folks have left the city.

2) The reason I mentioned the non resident fee, is because most folks that think there should be a fee are either non residents or folks that rarely use the Island. I live six blocks away. Enjoy access to the river and love taking my kids to play.

3) I haven't been to a suburban park that can compare to Belle Isle. Regardless of how nice or well kept. Belle is unique and a wonderful place to chill and enjoy the day. I feel the stress decrease as I cross the bridge.

4) By the time the Young folks get out there, I'm looooong gone, Had my fun and moved on. There are clubs and other places that I used to go to that I would not fit, because the next gen have taken over. No big deal, my old ass should be somewhere else, doing something else or I would be pretty pitiful.

[jita1]

I think it's a good idea to crack down. It feels funny for me to say this because in the late 80's, early 90's, I was one of those kids out there cruising, drinking [[as a passenger, of course), and trying to pick up girls. We used to cruise "The Strip" as we called it just about every weekend. There was usually a police presence there, so we didn't see much trouble. Now that I'm feeling all nostalgic and stuff, maybe it's not a good idea to crack down. I think I'll call up my boys and go hanging on the Isle this weekend...LOL

[Hypestyles]

the city should charge a nominal fee- $5 for RVs, $3 for cars/trucks, $2 for motorcycle, $1 for bikes, $.50 for foot traffic.. Add on 50 cents for non residents..
also come up with some system for a monthly/quarterly pass..

there needs to be better maintenance in various areas..

[Jmil]

Hype, I suggest that Mayor Bing not waste what little capital he has with the citizens trying to get a fee on Belle Isle. There are plenty of other ideas he has that we are going to have to take in the short for the good of Detroit. This ain't a good place to start. I also suggest anyone running for council not admit that they would even consider a fee.

Republicans all over the country are begging for less taxes and fees, yet folks seem to think it is ok for Detroit. The most hard hit area in the country.

Great idea, put a bigger burden on the poorest.

The saddest part is we finally have a black President. One that ain't afraid to open the checkbook, and these idiots in our area can't figure out a way to take advantage of the opportunity.

[Rob]

No tax system is more fair than taxing the individuals who use a facility. A park entry fee is a tax on the willing. Rochester has Bloomer Park that charges a $5 per-vehicle entry fee on everyone. I just found this out recently. It is a large city park [[like Belle Isle) and I guess it takes extra revenue to maintain.

A user tax is a good idea for Belle Isle, IMO. It might relieve the burden of the park on the city budget, bring in revenue from suburbanites [[and city residents), add a layer of security, wouldn't take much to implement, and the fee program could be easily stopped if it has no positive effect.

I buy annual metro and state park passes, and I'd certainly buy a Belle Isle/Detroit park pass. City residents should get a discount on an annual pass [[no daily pass discounts), but all who enjoy it should pay a little extra to revive/maintain the most beautiful park in the area.

The island is in a permanent shoddy, half-open condition. Would a fee improve the island's amenities? I think so, but there is only one way to truly find out. There are tons of free parks around for people to enjoy, but none of them have the rich sense of history [[or the view) that Belle Isle offers. We've got to pay for the things we love.

[jita1]

Rob, that makes sense to me.

I remember back around 2000, I went to Belle Isle just to get out of the house and relax. As I sat in my car, a woman with a clipboard came by and asked me if I would be willing to pay a 2 or $3 entrance fee. I responded "Sure, I would." I don't know what happened with that. If you go to any of the Metro Parks, you have to pay a fee. Belle Isle is unique and worth a nominal fee to enjoy, in my opinion. Maybe they could even bring back the fish house or zoo.

I've also thought about how cool it would be to have residential housing on Belle Isle, like condos or apartments. How about a couple of retail shops. It could even be a mini Mackinac kind of thing. Just some thoughts.

[Jmil]

Use tax, tax for the willing, whatever, a tax is still a tax. What part of 3% income tax for Detroit residents don't people understand.
As far as I know, Detroit and Pontiac are the only income taxing cities in the state.

Had the Mayor[[s)/City Council done their job properly, the budget would not be such a mess. Instead they keep floating ideas to increase revenues from those with the least. They should start with their own budgets. Stop holding special elections that cost millions. Stop stealing. In other words, get their house in order BEFORE coming to the citizens requesting more.

When a Mayor pays 9 millions + untold expenses to cover up his lies. When you have a Mayor rush out offering tax breaks to a corporation that did not even ask for them, you don't turn around and say we need more money from the people.

They keep running the same old play over and over.
Sell the tunnel, turn over operations of the zoo, eastern market, and Cobo. Next Belle Isle? but never coming up with solutions to actually FIX the problem.

The problem with the old adage "straw that broke the camels back" is you never know which straw it will be, but you know it took an awful lot of straws to take a camel down. The camels knees are getting pretty wobbly.

[jita1]

Actually, there are quite a few Michigan cities that impose an income tax:

http://www.michigan.gov/taxes/0,1607...955--F,00.html

[Jmil]

Great. Drop my income tax down to 1% like most of those cities, then I'll gladly pay a Belle Isle fee.

This is pointless.
Its a non issue unless the Mayor/Council decide to impose a fee. Which I don't anticipate during an election year.

[Boo Stinking Boo]

But how many of the city residents even pay taxes?