Any Witnesses to the Wildings, 02/09/2013?

[Hermod]

What, are you trying to manifest your boy Frank Rizzo into the conversation?

Getting old

Just don't go near any of those eeeeeevullllllll barber shops.

[Hermod]

The safety net is in tatters. In the inner city, there simply aren't enough jobs. To blame the threadbare safety net for the hopeless despair of inner-city life is a rationalization of things, to say the least.

Anyway, this "personal responsibility" jazz is so American. Single-parent households have exploded in Nordic countries, and somehow they manage to produce new generations of educated, healthy young people with real future opportunities. Studies show that American single-parent families are in dire straits not because a man isn't there, but because of lagging social policies and backsliding public funding -- which would seem to be precisely the opposite conclusion you've come to.

http://sotrueradio.org/index.php/rss...arent-families

Check out the article in the current "Economist" where the Nordic countries are cutting severely back on their public spending as a percent of GDP.

[Detroitdave]

Edit

I'm no conspiracy theorist but somehow i think that was the plan.
I think those kids were sent there to scare "outsiders". I know. I know.Maybe I'm just so tired of this racist "us v.s. them" bull that I've been hearing the past few weeks that I'm quite loopy.

I think this is a part of it ! Someone said that "they" the kids don't read detroityes or reading any of the blogs on how Detroit is doing better .
probably not , but they see all the new things happening downtown and that's why they chose downtown to do this .
Detroit is not the only place things like this happen , there was just a shooting in New Orleans , on bourbon st the weekend before mardi gras ,
However this is sad and for a city with a serious image problem this does not look good.
Detroit is at a crossroads and fragile place and things like this just can't be allowed.
I think Gilbert and other business owners should hire their own LARGE armed security force .
A very large and visual security might have help discourage them[[teens) and made families feel safer ?

I was surprised by all the people making excuses for this ? We should be coming down harder on this behavior , not making excuses.
Does it need to be dealt with yes , but making excuses is not it .

Maybe we should have curfews for kids under 18 after 10pm since the parents are not responsible enough to know where their kids are and what their kids are doing ? I doubt the teens have learn anything, seems like a waste of time to just release them to their parents ?they were probably right back on the street 1/2 hour later ? :-[[ There should have been a stricter punishment .

On a quick side note I was Downtown earlier on Saturday and saw a big group [[about 20) Asian tourist with cameras in hand, no pun intended, :-)
And I thought WOW this is new for Detroit ?are things changing so much we have tourist from Asia touring ? and then that happens Saturday night :-[[
I hope this event won't stop people from coming downtown ?

[Drexciya68]

And folks wonder how Pine Knob usurped Cobo as the premier concert venue. Roving gangs of black youths in August of 1976 rushed the turnstiles at Cobo and beat patrons at a Average White Band Concert, there were gang rapes on the sidewalk out front ... Judge Gregg Mathis was one of the leaders of the Errol Flynns who beat people with folding chairs.

good job Detroit.

Do you have any links or more info about that incident?

[gnome]

Do you have any links or more info about that incident?

There are a ton, google Average White Band detroit riot, but you can start by reading an old Dyes thread:
http://atdetroit.net/forum/messages/...tml?1201563806

[Zacha341]

What was your handle back in those days Gnome? I was not a member back in those days....

There are a ton, google Average White Band detroit riot, but you can start by reading an old Dyes thread:
http://atdetroit.net/forum/messages/...tml?1201563806

[GhettoHoodRat]

What percentage of them are born to babymammas?

[royce]

Wow. I am amazed at the stuff I just read. Isn't the title of this thread "Any Witnesses to the Wildings, 02/09/2013?" Doesn't appear to be too many. Yet, there sure are a lot of folks making comments about "social engineering." Perhaps if we had some better reporting on this issue, then there wouldn't be so much speculation as to the cause of the event in question.

I'm curious. It has been established that American Coney Island was a business that experienced the chaos. Someone on here said 24 Grille also experienced some chaos. So, do these two businesses make up the sum of " a number of businesses were targeted by out of control youth" in the Ch. 4 news report? Can I get some more facts? Now, 76 youth detained is a large number. How did the police go about corralling so many? What were the youths motivations? Until I hear more information, I won't speculate. This incident won't keep me from going downtown or to American Coney Island.

BTW, was there a fee to get into the WinterBlast? This could have been a reason as to why the youth acted up. If they couldn't get in or refused to pay the fee, then they might have gotten upset. Oops, there I go speculating. My bad.

[sturge]

The Winter Blast is free.

[Honky Tonk]

Wow. I am amazed at the stuff I just read. Isn't the title of this thread "Any Witnesses to the Wildings, 02/09/2013?" Doesn't appear to be too many. Yet, there sure are a lot of folks making comments about "social engineering." Perhaps if we had some better reporting on this issue, then there wouldn't be so much speculation as to the cause of the event in question.

I'm curious. It has been established that American Coney Island was a business that experienced the chaos. Someone on here said 24 Grille also experienced some chaos. So, do these two businesses make up the sum of " a number of businesses were targeted by out of control youth" in the Ch. 4 news report? Can I get some more facts? Now, 76 youth detained is a large number. How did the police go about corralling so many? What were the youths motivations? Until I hear more information, I won't speculate. This incident won't keep me from going downtown or to American Coney Island.

BTW, was there a fee to get into the WinterBlast? This could have been a reason as to why the youth acted up. If they couldn't get in or refused to pay the fee, then they might have gotten upset. Oops, there I go speculating. My bad.

My advice is next time you encouter a gang of youth throwing chairs and tables around, accosting and picking fights with innocent people, and being generally disruptive, just walk up to a few and ask "excuse me, is something troubling you?", and there you'll get your answer. Let me know how that turns out for you. Enjoy your coney dog.

[bailey]

The safety net is in tatters. In the inner city, there simply aren't enough jobs. To blame the threadbare safety net for the hopeless despair of inner-city life is a rationalization of things, to say the least.

The safety net is in tatters because it's been overtaxed by ever increasing numbers of people depending on it to live their lives.

I agree, the crux of the problem is the lack of good paying jobs. However, there will never be those jobs in a place where 50% of the adult population is functional illiterate, where only 60% of high school kids in DPS graduate, and an overall culture that is anti education. GM, ford, chrysler, toyota...whomever is never building a plant in Detroit that will allow GED holders to get a job, support a family of 4 on that income, and work a 40 year career with a pension. It hasn't been that way for at least a generation.

Anyway, this "personal responsibility" jazz is so American. Single-parent households have exploded in Nordic countries, and somehow they manage to produce new generations of educated, healthy young people with real future opportunities. Studies show that American single-parent families are in dire straits not because a man isn't there, but because of lagging social policies and backsliding public funding -- which would seem to be precisely the opposite conclusion you've come to.

http://sotrueradio.org/index.php/rss...arent-families

What you are arguing for is socialism. We're not a socialist country. We don't have single payer health care, nationally run schools, free or heavily subsidized post secondary education, child allowances, and lifetime welfare. We never did. So something else is the problem here.

For the record, I'm not saying single parent households are in dire straights because a man isn't there... I'm saying they are in dire straights because one of the parents isn't there, it just so happens that it is most often the man missing from the picture.

[aj3647]

Yes. Yes, you could. There are two clashing visions going on right now in Metro Detroit. One is the "just move away" vision, "we don't need to put up with this shit". The other is...the other vision. The entrepreneur's vision. The visionary's vision. The vision that says, "It will be harder at first but better in the long run."

I've been hearing "it's going to get better" about Detroit for the past 20 years. How long should people who live and work in the city be expected to wait before they flee? 20 more years? 50 years?

It's not getting better.

http://www.freep.com/article/2012122...t-in-2-decades

Last year's murder rate was the highest in 20 years. Things are getting WORSE. Funny how all that positive change is always "just around the corner", I fully expect to hear this same tired tune 20 years from now as well, when the population is down to half a million and crime rates are still leading the nation.

[EastsideAl]

Wow. I am amazed at the stuff I just read. Isn't the title of this thread "Any Witnesses to the Wildings, 02/09/2013?" Doesn't appear to be too many. Yet, there sure are a lot of folks making comments about "social engineering." Perhaps if we had some better reporting on this issue, then there wouldn't be so much speculation as to the cause of the event in question.

I'm curious. It has been established that American Coney Island was a business that experienced the chaos. Someone on here said 24 Grille also experienced some chaos. So, do these two businesses make up the sum of " a number of businesses were targeted by out of control youth" in the Ch. 4 news report? Can I get some more facts? Now, 76 youth detained is a large number. How did the police go about corralling so many? What were the youths motivations? Until I hear more information, I won't speculate. This incident won't keep me from going downtown or to American Coney Island.

BTW, was there a fee to get into the WinterBlast? This could have been a reason as to why the youth acted up. If they couldn't get in or refused to pay the fee, then they might have gotten upset. Oops, there I go speculating. My bad.

Yes, you seem to have missed the memo Royce, that every single black teenager in Detroit was involved in this incident, and therefore we must blame and restrict all of them. Oh, and they were "wildings" - nice of the NYPD to have created that helpful term in order to railroad black teenagers for a crime they didn't commit - because, of course, black people are conscienceless "wild animals" who are all stealing good white taxpayer money and need to be controlled by the National Guard, or something. Why, just look at that incident that happened in 1976!! Just 37 years ago, it must be a trend...

[Gannon]

I looked up that term before posting it, but didn't notice the etymology on the second half of the definition only went back to 1985-90. Whoa. I only USED the word because I thought it was more ancient and appropriate to describe the actions I saw on the television screen.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wilding?s=t

[corktownyuppie]

I've been hearing "it's going to get better" about Detroit for the past 20 years. How long should people who live and work in the city be expected to wait before they flee? 20 more years? 50 years?

It's not getting better.

http://www.freep.com/article/2012122...t-in-2-decades

Last year's murder rate was the highest in 20 years. Things are getting WORSE. Funny how all that positive change is always "just around the corner", I fully expect to hear this same tired tune 20 years from now as well, when the population is down to half a million and crime rates are still leading the nation.

Well the positive change is happening already. It's just not affecting people equally. The positive changes taking place now are the ones which needed to happen 30 years ago in order to prevent it from getting this bad.

But yes, you are right, that doesn't mean squat for the impoverished or uneducated. I expect crime rates to go up not down. But I also don't think it's going to stop or have that much effect on a lot of the positive changes coming in.

At the end of the day well over half the crime -- which is a lot of the crime -- is still taking place between parties who know each other.

The redevelopment of the city is not going to stop that kind of crime anytime soon. It's also not going to improve unemployment anytime soon. It's also not going to help 19-year-olds who can't read learn to read anytime soon.

Three Detroits. The one I live in, I don't know a single person without a college degree, and most have even advanced degrees beyond bachelors. These are people with some of the highest levels of education in the nation. The second Detroit is the one you read about in the paper every day. 50% illiteracy. 50+% unemployment. Crime and social problems rampant. Then there's the last Detroit, the middle class of Detroit which would likely be called the lower middle class almost anywhere else in the Metro area.

For those living in a world of poverty devoid of any opportunity, none of this development is going to positively effect them anytime soon. For those in the Detroit middle class, the news isn't much better.

And as for the crime rate, if you have half the population leave, but the same number of idiots commit the same number of crimes, then you've effectively doubled the crime rate. That doesn't make the city any more or less dangerous for anyone.

So to answer your question, "How long should people live and work in the city expect to wait before they flee"? I would say that unless you have the means to live in an area with private security [[whether by building or neighborhood association) and have the education necessary to be attractive to employers outside of City Governmeny...I think we should set the expectations correctly.

It's gonna get worse for you, and I wouldn't blame you getting out while you can. Detroit really is the tale of two different cities right now.

[Honky Tonk]

Well the positive change is happening already. It's just not affecting people equally. The positive changes taking place now are the ones which needed to happen 30 years ago in order to prevent it from getting this bad.

But yes, you are right, that doesn't mean squat for the impoverished or uneducated. I expect crime rates to go up not down. But I also don't think it's going to stop or have that much effect on a lot of the positive changes coming in.

At the end of the day well over half the crime -- which is a lot of the crime -- is still taking place between parties who know each other.

The redevelopment of the city is not going to stop that kind of crime anytime soon. It's also not going to improve unemployment anytime soon. It's also not going to help 19-year-olds who can't read learn to read anytime soon.

Three Detroits. The one I live in, I don't know a single person without a college degree, and most have even advanced degrees beyond bachelors. These are people with some of the highest levels of education in the nation. The second Detroit is the one you read about in the paper every day. 50% illiteracy. 50+% unemployment. Crime and social problems rampant. Then there's the last Detroit, the middle class of Detroit which would likely be called the lower middle class almost anywhere else in the Metro area.

For those living in a world of poverty devoid of any opportunity, none of this development is going to positively effect them anytime soon. For those in the Detroit middle class, the news isn't much better.

And as for the crime rate, if you have half the population leave, but the same number of idiots commit the same number of crimes, then you've effectively doubled the crime rate. That doesn't make the city any more or less dangerous for anyone.

So to answer your question, "How long should people live and work in the city expect to wait before they flee"? I would say that unless you have the means to live in an area with private security [[whether by building or neighborhood association) and have the education necessary to be attractive to employers outside the City of Detroit...I think we should set the expectations correctly.

It's gonna get worse for you, and you should get out while you can. Detroit really is the tale of two different cities right now.

I'd say that's is a pretty accurate assessment of the situation in Detroit..

[Shollin]

Well the positive change is happening already. It's just not affecting people equally. The positive changes taking place now are the ones which needed to happen 30 years ago in order to prevent it from getting this bad.

Seems to me the same things happening now happened 30 years ago. We're talking about a new hockey arena. In 1979 Joe Louis Arena opened. We're talking about public transportation. In the early 80's they announced plans for the PeopleMover. We're talking about Gilbert moving jobs downtown. In the late 70's the RenCen was built. Gateway center is being built with a Meijer. BelAire Center was built in the 80's with a Target.

Detroit was already in a better position 30 years ago than it is today. Hudson's was still open. The population was still over 1 million. This development already happened 20-30 years ago. The city is in worse shape than it was 30 years ago. It seems to me we're just repeating ourselves.

[corktownyuppie]

Seems to me the same things happening now happened 30 years ago. We're talking about a new hockey arena. In 1979 Joe Louis Arena opened. We're talking about public transportation. In the early 80's they announced plans for the PeopleMover. We're talking about Gilbert moving jobs downtown. In the late 70's the RenCen was built. Gateway center is being built with a Meijer. BelAire Center was built in the 80's with a Target.

Detroit was already in a better position 30 years ago than it is today. Hudson's was still open. The population was still over 1 million. This development already happened 20-30 years ago. The city is in worse shape than it was 30 years ago. It seems to me we're just repeating ourselves.

Development is not what is causing the city to turn around. It's not even necessarily a sure-fire sign of a turnaround.

Here is why I'm bullish on Detroit...long term, and for those people who have resources and aren't relying on the city for services in the present:

- The right people moving back in. No, "right" is not code for "white". I'm talking about highly educated people who have a renewed interest in the city. Not only do they bring their work ethic and talent, and not only are they not a disproportionate strain on city services, they also bring something that's difficulty to quantify...access to capital investment. Capital investment which is crucial in a time where Detroit's credit is worthless.

- The dire financial situation isn't a bad thing, long term. It's the best thing for the city because it's finally forcing a confrontation between [[1) reality / sound financial management practice and [[2) the historical cultural legacy of inefficiency, waste, and corruption which has been a giant anchor that cannot possibly be solved through the political process but only through a reform forced by dire circumstances. That dysfunction has always been there holding us back. But access to borrowing has allowed to politically paralyze any reform. That day ends now.

-And finally, a universal recognition by all the stakeholders that Detroit's economy can no longer rely on the manufacturing sector to carry the entire weight of the municipal fiscal health. Yes, it's 30 years later than it should've been. And, yes, we just had to learn things the hard way. But certainly, there's no one with any credibility that says we're going back to the heyday of 1945. Let's end that dream, quit fighting about it, and build a new city that's actually feasible.

I'm not saying the process will be easy. Hell, it's gonna be painful. Just ask anyone at General Motors, another place where 70 years of culture combined with 30 years of denial meant pushing the company to the brink [[and then over the edge) of failure...only to reinvent itself.

Now, there are definite differences between municipal and corporate bankruptcy. But the common theme between Ford, GM, and Detroit is that entrenched interests and political loyalties were preventing much needed reforms from taking place. Financial calamity finally forced the reckoning, and 2 of those 3 are finally in better shape for it.

The 3rd one, Detroit, is next.

Target, Shopping Centers, New Development...that's all well and good. But they are just trimmings and are unreliable indicators. You bet the city is worse off than 30 years ago. Yes population is down. But the fundamental battle royale is finally nearing and the entire city of Detroit government is going to be reinvented, IMHO. Hell, it's already happening. Much of Detroit is now governed by regional boards, and that trend will only continue as financial necessity is forcing change.

Whether it's alcohol, drugs, debt, or dysfunction...it's tough to really end an addiction until you hit rock bottom. For years we put off the inevitable through borrowing. But the addiction is gonna be over soon.

And that's why I think the long term future is brighter.

Long-Term meaning 10-15 yrs and beyond.

CTY

p.s. I re-read this. Apologies in advance for sounding like Nolan Finley. Trust me, he and I are not of the same political ideology...though we both arrive at the same conclusion on this.

[oladub]

The safety net is in tatters. In the inner city, there simply aren't enough jobs. To blame the threadbare safety net for the hopeless despair of inner-city life is a rationalization of things, to say the least.

Anyway, this "personal responsibility" jazz is so American. Single-parent households have exploded in Nordic countries, and somehow they manage to produce new generations of educated, healthy young people with real future opportunities. Studies show that American single-parent families are in dire straits not because a man isn't there, but because of lagging social policies and backsliding public funding -- which would seem to be precisely the opposite conclusion you've come to.

http://sotrueradio.org/index.php/rss...arent-families

Your article does not make any claim that Nordic countries "manage to produce new generations of educated, healthy young people with real future opportunities." Nor does it claim that single parent children do as well in Nordic countries. It may be true that achievement gaps and other disadvantages single parent children have in Scandinavia is less pronounce than in this Country because of a larger safety net. However, in Sweden, single parent children still fall significantly behind their two parent peers. Government policies should therefore encourage fathers to be present in households instead of being just dispensable breeding units.

http://www.thehilltoponline.com/2.48...8#.URrpYKWIF8s

[stasu1213]

Development is not what is causing the city to turn around. It's not even necessarily a sure-fire sign of a turnaround.

Here is why I'm bullish on Detroit...long term, and for those people who have resources and aren't relying on the city for services in the present:

- The right people moving back in. No, "right" is not code for "white". I'm talking about highly educated people who have a renewed interest in the city. Not only do they bring their work ethic and talent, and not only are they not a disproportionate strain on city services, they also bring something that's difficulty to quantify...access to capital investment. Capital investment which is crucial in a time where Detroit's credit is worthless.

- The dire financial situation isn't a bad thing, long term. It's the best thing for the city because it's finally forcing a confrontation between [[1) reality / sound financial management practice and [[2) the historical cultural legacy of inefficiency, waste, and corruption which has been a giant anchor that cannot possibly be solved through the political process but only through a reform forced by dire circumstances. That dysfunction has always been there holding us back. But access to borrowing has allowed to politically paralyze any reform. That day ends now.

-And finally, a universal recognition by all the stakeholders that Detroit's economy can no longer rely on the manufacturing sector to carry the entire weight of the municipal fiscal health. Yes, it's 30 years later than it should've been. And, yes, we just had to learn things the hard way. But certainly, there's no one with any credibility that says we're going back to the heyday of 1945. Let's end that dream, quit fighting about it, and build a new city that's actually feasible.

I'm not saying the process will be easy. Hell, it's gonna be painful. Just ask anyone at General Motors, another place where 70 years of culture combined with 30 years of denial meant pushing the company to the brink [[and then over the edge) of failure...only to reinvent itself.

Now, there are definite differences between municipal and corporate bankruptcy. But the common theme between Ford, GM, and Detroit is that entrenched interests and political loyalties were preventing much needed reforms from taking place. Financial calamity finally forced the reckoning, and 2 of those 3 are finally in better shape for it.

The 3rd one, Detroit, is next.

Target, Shopping Centers, New Development...that's all well and good. But they are just trimmings and are unreliable indicators. You bet the city is worse off than 30 years ago. Yes population is down. But the fundamental battle royale is finally nearing and the entire city of Detroit government is going to be reinvented, IMHO. Hell, it's already happening. Much of Detroit is now governed by regional boards, and that trend will only continue as financial necessity is forcing change.

Whether it's alcohol, drugs, debt, or dysfunction...it's tough to really end an addiction until you hit rock bottom. For years we put off the inevitable through borrowing. But the addiction is gonna be over soon.

And that's why I think the long term future is brighter.

Long-Term meaning 10-15 yrs and beyond.

CTY

p.s. I re-read this. Apologies in advance for sounding like Nolan Finley. Trust me, he and I are not of the same political ideology...though we both arrive at the same conclusion on this.

I agree that Detroit is worse now then it was 30 years ago. However, 30yrs ago some forecaster had said that this city is on a downhill slope and slipping fast. Target, Bel Air shopping center, RenCen were only bandages covering a knife wound. The city is in a better position to be rebuilt than it was 30years ago. Neighborhoods were decaying rapidly 25 to 30 years due to white/black middle class flight and the crack epidemic. Today some of those neighborhoods had been turned into lots making it ripe for redevelopement. The highly educated are not the only ones who would bring this city on the right path. The innovators, visionaries, thinkers, entrepreneurs, and hard working people will bring this city back

[stasu1213]

I had listen to black radio talk [[WCHB) with Angelo Henderson as host. He had not once recognized this group of youths as a flashmob when he was interviewing Benny Napoleon

[Richard]

Development is not what is causing the city to turn around. It's not even necessarily a sure-fire sign of a turnaround.

Here is why I'm bullish on Detroit...long term, and for those people who have resources and aren't relying on the city for services in the present:

- The right people moving back in. No, "right" is not code for "white". I'm talking about highly educated people who have a renewed interest in the city. Not only do they bring their work ethic and talent, and not only are they not a disproportionate strain on city services, they also bring something that's difficulty to quantify...access to capital investment. Capital investment which is crucial in a time where Detroit's credit is worthless.

- The dire financial situation isn't a bad thing, long term. It's the best thing for the city because it's finally forcing a confrontation between [[1) reality / sound financial management practice and [[2) the historical cultural legacy of inefficiency, waste, and corruption which has been a giant anchor that cannot possibly be solved through the political process but only through a reform forced by dire circumstances. That dysfunction has always been there holding us back. But access to borrowing has allowed to politically paralyze any reform. That day ends now.

-And finally, a universal recognition by all the stakeholders that Detroit's economy can no longer rely on the manufacturing sector to carry the entire weight of the municipal fiscal health. Yes, it's 30 years later than it should've been. And, yes, we just had to learn things the hard way. But certainly, there's no one with any credibility that says we're going back to the heyday of 1945. Let's end that dream, quit fighting about it, and build a new city that's actually feasible.

I'm not saying the process will be easy. Hell, it's gonna be painful. Just ask anyone at General Motors, another place where 70 years of culture combined with 30 years of denial meant pushing the company to the brink [[and then over the edge) of failure...only to reinvent itself.

Now, there are definite differences between municipal and corporate bankruptcy. But the common theme between Ford, GM, and Detroit is that entrenched interests and political loyalties were preventing much needed reforms from taking place. Financial calamity finally forced the reckoning, and 2 of those 3 are finally in better shape for it.

The 3rd one, Detroit, is next.

Target, Shopping Centers, New Development...that's all well and good. But they are just trimmings and are unreliable indicators. You bet the city is worse off than 30 years ago. Yes population is down. But the fundamental battle royale is finally nearing and the entire city of Detroit government is going to be reinvented, IMHO. Hell, it's already happening. Much of Detroit is now governed by regional boards, and that trend will only continue as financial necessity is forcing change.

Whether it's alcohol, drugs, debt, or dysfunction...it's tough to really end an addiction until you hit rock bottom. For years we put off the inevitable through borrowing. But the addiction is gonna be over soon.

And that's why I think the long term future is brighter.

Long-Term meaning 10-15 yrs and beyond.

CTY

p.s. I re-read this. Apologies in advance for sounding like Nolan Finley. Trust me, he and I are not of the same political ideology...though we both arrive at the same conclusion on this.

[[Sorry John)

So this is kinda interesting.

If you are on the city council which would be interesting because you believe in a shrinking city and if Duggan was mayor ,who does not follow the shrinking city aspect,what would the compromise be as it in theory relates to this very thing.

What would a CC based resolution be to address this problem in the future? Short term immediate results?

Because in a district situation as a CC member your constituents would be ringing your phone off the hook,and not DPD.

[corktownyuppie]

The highly educated are not the only ones who are bringing this city on the right path. The innovators, visionaries, thinkers, entrepreneurs, and hard working people will bring this city back

You are right. I meant to be all-inclusive, but you've exposed one of my biases...that the innovators and entrepreneurs are all highly educated, which is not true.

Point taken, and I think you [[or we) are right.

[corktownyuppie]

[[Sorry John)

So this is kinda interesting.

If you are on the city council which would be interesting because you believe in a shrinking city and if Duggan was mayor ,who does not follow the shrinking city aspect,what would the compromise be as it in theory relates to this very thing.

What would a CC based resolution be to address this problem in the future? Short term immediate results?

Because in a district situation as a CC member your constituents would be ringing your phone off the hook,and not DPD.

There is a happy medium in there. And there absolutely do need to be short-term results, even if it lengthens the time for a full recovery.

I don't have enough data about the city operations, so I will admit ignorance there. I do think that if the city saved money by outsourcing every possible department out to the lowest cost solution and re-defining every remaining department structure to reduce unnecessary job classifications and position, they could use the funds saved to focus solely on core operations...fire, police, trash, and infrastructure.

If we did that, the downside would mean a ton of lost jobs. But the upside is that we could really boost city services and keep the existing neighborhoods on life support and stop the outflow of residents [[and taxes).

The city will then need to freeze development in all but a 5-10 strategically picked neighborhoods [[via Detroit Future City perhaps). It doesn't mean that we will have to shrink the city instantly per se, but it does mean that for the sake of efficiency and cost, we focus all future development going forward in places that are still solid.

Lastly to your point about constituent calls, I think you're right. Which means the change needs to come out of an overarching vision, and the key here is that the overarching vision needs to be the right combination of being financially solvent plus having enough of a critical mass of people who will get on board with it.

It's not gonna be easy. And it doesn't matter whether you're in the mayor's office or the city council's, your phone is gonna be ringing off the hook no matter what. Duggan may not believe in a "shrinking city" the way that Bing does. But I think that he agrees that he isn't envisioning 1.3MM people moving back, either.

So that doesn't mean that existing neighborhoods need to suffer necessarily, but it does mean that we focus building our future in areas which can hold. That way over the next 10-20 years as people move out or die in the marginal neighborhoods, we can just demolish and freeze development there.

Let's not kid ourselves, it's gonna be painful, and the city is not gonna be able to stop the pain for everyone. But there's two types of pain. One hurts, but you've got a countdown going because you know exactly how long you're gonna be in pain. Every moment brings you closer to sweet relief.

The other kind of pain is where it's bad, there's no sign of it getting better, and you could be in this kind of pain forever.

We need to trade in the latter kind of pain for the former kind of pain.

CTY
And, yes, It's All My Fault.

[Richard]

Here in lies the problem with the whole shrinking city theory and the crux of this thread.

You have currently roughly 700,000 residents out of that 700,000 you have roughly 35% at this time carrying the others so to speak,which leaves a very large percentage of the population that needs to be dealt with,maybe wrong choice of words but currently you have several options.

Because until that percentage is watered down your treading water.

A: You could pack them all up and send then to the suburbs.not really advisable.

B: You can shrink the city and force them to move to the suburbs because they have no choice because by the time they are given 10 times the value of their currant home it still does not give them enough to buy a paid for home in Corktown let alone pay the increased costs of security and property taxes. So they have no option and that whole line is what is called hogwash.

Crop the whole shrinking city aspect and concentrate on job training and job creation which would also bring in residents to fill the gaps while you are preparing the rest of the ones that need the extra help to find their way in life.But that all starts at the top and people like you in place to make it happen in everybody's best interest not just the 30 something techies,nothing against them but they will get eaten for lunch and head out state the first time it happens.

Millions being raised to cover the eastside with fish farms for convicts but yet you have 65 schools sitting vacant that could be dormitorys with retired school teachers giving GED classes and actually preparing them for a future other then crime.

Shrinking city and neat little tree farms sounds all and good ,we can go dancing through the groves hand in hand singing songs but what about the 300,000 bodies that were thrown aside to get there.

There are alternatives to shrinking city that do not include stepping over those that may at some point in life be a bit more less unfortunate then others. They are still human and Americans.

So in the famous words of G and all of that monkey typing you need to dilute the waters ,how are you going to do that?

Because this whole propaganda side show of a shrinking city is based on 300,000 packing up and leaving and I really do not see that happening,nor would expect it.

So it goes back to spend millions to shrink a city or spend millions to make productive members of society,do not have the funds? Funny,the funds seem to be coming in from all over to shrink the city.People tripping over each other to raise millions to install extra security,many are willing to raise taxes for extra security but how many are willing to raise taxes to educate and employ and train so the false sense of security is not even needed?

This tread is a wake up call in a sense you are being told hey we are still here and we are not going away. You need a city of 1.7 million to thin the waters.

For what it is worth CTY I think you would be an asset to your community within the CC ,but sometimes we all need to walk in another persons shoes and see where they are coming from.