No More Indian Mascots Allowed? Are they demeaning or empowering?

[gazhekwe]

@Canuck, no one is demanding that legitimate symbols used respectfully be discarded. What is at issue here is demeaning stereotypes and inappropriately used symbols.

@Gistok, go ahead and drink the firewater, no one cares about that since they are not going "woo,woo,woo" and dancing around, nor are they at all anxious to incorporate any drunken Indian stereotypes. Again, at issue here is inappropriately used symbols and negative stereotypes.

I do happen to know what is at stake and the history of this lawsuit, having been on the receiving end of these stereotypes, as well as having spent a good deal of my career at Civil Rights as part of the team working on the issues with various school districts across the state.

[Ray1936]

PC gone nuts again. Life is short; loosen up.

[gazhekwe]

Ray, this issue predates PC by decades, it has been an ongoing problem especially with Native students in schools where they are in the minority and where there is little if any recognition of their history and culture. "Sitting Indian" to hear stories and wearing paper headbands before Thanksgiving and learning about how the Pilgrims shared with the Indians does not count. When all you have is mainstream stereotypes or Hollywood savages along with the misinformation that is overwhelmingly supported by the mainstream teaching system, you get the highest dropout rate in the nation for many decades.

[1953]

This is ridiculous.

I went to elementary, middle, and high schools with Indians as mascots [[yeah, Indians), and we were proud of our namesakes and the cultures they represented.

1953

[Gistok]

I was looking at the Utica "Chieftains"... they do NOT use any imagery except a football in their name/logo. I guess they'll have to use a plaid tartan motif to get around their problem... easier solution than most.

[Jimaz]

I was looking at the Utica "Chieftains"... they do NOT use any imagery except a football in their name/logo. I guess they'll have to use a plaid tartan motif to get around their problem... easier solution than most.

The Utica High School website has a stylized headdress image at the top of the page. I've seen similar decals on vehicles around there. They also have their Arrow newspaper, Warrior yearbook and Tomahawk video yearbook so the use of Native American imagery is pretty much ingrained in their brand.

I see no intentional malice though.

Utica's very earliest history did involve indian trails along the Clinton River so maybe it's more of a tribute.

[canuck]

The Utica High School website has a stylized headdress image at the top of the page. I've seen similar decals on vehicles around there. They also have their Arrow newspaper, Warrior yearbook and Tomahawk video yearbook so the use of Native American imagery is pretty much ingrained in their brand.

I see no intentional malice though.

Utica's very earliest history did involve indian trails along the Clinton River so maybe it's more of a tribute.

Yes. I actually think that whatever this imagery is used for; sports teams or trademarks, the intent is as a positive image. There is a kitsch/ naïveté to it but it serves as a tribute as you say, albeit in a dumb kind of way. The world would be a duller place without this stuff.

[gazhekwe]

Good example, Chieftains. The name is not of any group, it is an English word depicting a leadership position that was used to refer to Native leaders. The word itself depicts no stereotype. As Jimaz points out, the use of other terms and images in the school activities indicates the intention to relate to native culture, especially a war culture, Arrow, Warrior and Tomahawk. That gets into a loaded image of Natives as fighters that is not balanced by any other occupation or lifestyle images.

A bit of history here. The trails and village sites along the Clinton River Jimaz noted, and elsewhere in southeastern Michigan were made by the People of the Three Fires and by others who were here earlier. We call them the Ancestors now. For honest use of Native images, these histories and prehistories could be added into the lifestyle depictions at the school, and the students could learn about the actual people they are representing as warriors alone. In the Treaty of Greenville, 1795, numerous people from different areas, represented by various leaders, ceded much land in this area, reserving specific areas for their homes, for farming and for fishing and hunting. Thus ended the Northwest War. By the 1820s, all that reserved land was taken back, and by the late 1830s, most of the people from southern Michigan were removed, either to Kansas or other areas in Michigan not perceived to be desirable for settlement by whites at that time.

To continue to use their logo, the school could promote studies of the history to develop respect for the actual people who were here in the past, and to learn about the people who are here now, including descendants of those who were here in the past. This is what happened at Central Michigan University, which worked with the Saginaw Chippewa Tribe to become more respectful of the Chippewa.

[noise]

Hey, look, white guys don't get it. How novel. When "PC" starts getting thrown around, you know the type of person with which you're dealing.

Have you guys been trying hard to resist posting in the thread about the German sign at the Packard plant? How dare anyone Jewish get offended!

[firstandten]

I believe that something like changing the names of the mascot should be taken on a case by case basis. Some school communities may have good reasons for keeping there Native American names. Remember a few years back when this was taken up by the colleges. EMU and CMU had very different ways of looking at the issue. EMU ended up changing from the Hurons to the Eagles, however the Chippewa Indians up in Mt Pleasant wanted to keep the Chippewa name attached to the school so the name was never changed.

[gnome]

After considering several aspects on this issue, I guess it comes down to what the tribes want.


We abused them for hundreds of years. Stole their land. Imprisoned them. Made them fight in our wars. Forced their children into state run industrial training schools. Made them learn English. Broken every treaty.

We have collectively brutalized these people.

if they want to make sure no one ever uses Indian iconography to get the football team amped up for a big game. Ok.

I think it is too bad because that is about as close as most people will get to learning anything about native people, but if giving up mascots in some way repays for the past, fine.

I do wonder what mascots Indian schools will use. Maybe they will appropriate European derived iconography like the Fighting Station Wagons or the Spoons. Maybe The fighting Typesetters, or majestic Patent Lawyers will come to the fore.

[canuck]

After considering several aspects on this issue, I guess it comes down to what the tribes want.


We abused them for hundreds of years. Stole their land. Imprisoned them. Made them fight in our wars. Forced their children into state run industrial training schools. Made them learn English. Broken every treaty.

We have collectively brutalized these people.

if they want to make sure no one ever uses Indian iconography to get the football team amped up for a big game. Ok.

I think it is too bad because that is about as close as most people will get to learning anything about native people, but if giving up mascots in some way repays for the past, fine.

I do wonder what mascots Indian schools will use. Maybe they will appropriate European derived iconography like the Fighting Station Wagons or the Spoons. Maybe The fighting Typesetters, or majestic Patent Lawyers will come to the fore.

I totally agree with you about all the insults. But the intended usage of a logo which is a tribute, no matter how maladroit or simple-minded in its design is not a negative thing.

It seems like litigation is one more way of calling attention to past injury, [[some might call them old grudges) but not addressing the admiration implied in the title intended to designate a team or a product.

You mention the european derived iconography as an alternative and choose to neuter the debatable aspects by using bland occupations for a title.

I suggest that if someone out there of dutch descent figures his nationhood is maligned by the usage of "Dutch Girl" donuts because they are not to his taste or whatever else, then it is proper to sue the owners of this concern. How about sueing Air Canada or American Airlines because they use iconography that doesnt correspond to our notion of nationhood?

On the other hand, since we are in a social net of litigious capitalists forever on a lookout for opportunities; the case for use of an unauthorized trademark; i.e;
Sioux, Seneca, Mohawk would be pursued as an infringement despite the benign intent. In other words, go for the gusto even if there is no malicious concept inherent to the design.

[gazhekwe]

In the case of CMU, the Saginaw Chippewa worked with CMU and received some benefits to the tribe as well as significant changes to the school's curriculum pertaining to Natives, and changes to the appearance of the logo and how the name was represented during sporting events. Win-win.

There is nothing stopping any school from entering into negotiations to benefit local community members , address the appearance and presentation of their logo/mascot, and win approval to keep their moniker.

@CassTechGrad, the Elliott-Larsen Civil Rights Act of 1968, as amended, covers rights granted by legislative action and the governor's signature through its 44+ years. It applies to those groups which were demonstrated to suffer from discrimination by employers, in housing, education, law enforcement, public accommodation and public service. It is a fluid act, open to amendment to include other groups. Do please contact your state representative regarding any concerns you have with it. That is how legislative action gets started. Why must you be associated with some group? That is how law is enforced, by proving that there was some unlawful animus by the perpetrator against the subject. It has to be more than the fact that the perp doesn't like the shoes you wore that day, or was just in a bad mood, or wanted somebody who lived closer to the office.

The broad way that you have it would most likely result in a battle of he said/she said, or Who shot John, without possible resolution.

[canuck]

I found this interesting article in Wiki about the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Illiniwek

Again I find this sort of thing really sad because in a sense, there is an attempt at celebrating the origins of Illinois that is interpreted as an insult, thereby dragging the symbolism underground where it is no longer visible.

I would liken these fights to the little bickerings in churches about liturgy where symbolism is in constant flux, where dissent fragments meaning and begets more churches and more churchiness ad infinitum, amen. But I am not part of any church so what do I care...

On another note though, if I happen in on a lacrosse game on a mohawk reservation, and I see some form of cultural appropriation that I find insulting to my catholic irish french canadian heritage, I might faint.

[Lowell]

I found this interesting article in Wiki about the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Illiniwek

Again I find this sort of thing really sad because in a sense, there is an attempt at celebrating the origins of Illinois that is interpreted as an insult, thereby dragging the symbolism underground where it is no longer visible.

You would have to see this particular character perform to understand the insult. As my brother was a professor at Univ. of Illinois in his working days, I witnessed the antics of Chief Illiniwek [a full paid scholarship for the male non-Indian* actor] at a sporting event. Maybe they have changed since then, but I found them painfully embarrassing. I felt like I was watching some step-and-fetch-it black face routine while the white crowd when wild.

As the Wikipedia article cites the controversy also has sexist overtones.

Since 1926 a total of 36 different students have performed the role of the Chief. All but one have been men: one woman, Idelle [[Stith) Brooks, served in 1943 due to the shortage of male students during World War II; she was called "Princess Illiniwek." *No student portraying Chief Illiniwek was of American Indian heritage during the 82 year span, although Brooks, a journalism major who had grown up on the Osage Reservation in Fairfax, Oklahoma, was described as an "honorary princess of the Osage Indian tribe". Brooks weighed 90 pounds and her Chief regalia weighed 50. However, more recently the most current "unofficial" Chief Illiniwek has been cited as to being half-Cherokee.

However when it comes to insulting there is nothing that tops the Cleveland Indians logo.

[gazhekwe]

Canuck said--But the intended usage of a logo which is a tribute, no matter how maladroit or simple-minded in its design is not a negative thing.

This so called 'tribute' is always what is brought up to defend the use of Indian mascots with so-called Indian traditional practices. In reality, these practices are exaggerated caricatures of war dances, war whoops, tomahawk waving and so on. These are not real practices, the war paint and feathers are caricatures. The people who do this are not paying tribute to anything but 'bloodthirsty savages' and exaggerated war as they believe it was practiced in so called Indian massacres. They want to celebrate terror and madness. They only bring up the 'tribute' when challenged, and do not even realize as most of those responding here do not, how demeaning these cartoonish displays are to our real history of endurance and fervent belief in the spiritual connection of everything on our Earth.

I very much doubt the Mohawk are going to misappropriate anyone else's culture when they have enough trouble with keeping their own traditions clear and respected.

Again, as I said above, we have been fighting this battle for decades, and finally have reached the stage of a lawsuit filed by the State of Michigan on behalf of all Native Americans. This is not some trivial little bickering, but a real life fight for the self respect of all our people, and the education of ALL children.

[oladub]

States have differing new laws eliminating Indian school names. Oregon is trying to eliminate all Indian names from schools. I prefer Wisconsin's approach that allows complaints about the name from anyone in the school district to require the school board to get the permission of the specific tribe to continue using that name. If it is ok with the tribe, why should white liberals in the state capitol give themselves the power to override Indian wishes?

Some Indian tribes have their own reasons for objecting to the one size fits all approach to elimination all Indian names.

Curb on Indian Imagery in School Teams' Titles Meets Resistance on Reservations

This is how the U of Utah worked out this issue. " The Utes' experience with the University of Utah might serve as a model for successful resolution of conflicts over Indian nicknames. Four years ago the council met with university officials, who made it clear that they would change their teams' name, the Running Utes, if the tribe found it objectionable. [[The university had retired its cartoonish Indian mascot years before.) The council was perfectly happy to have the Ute name continue to circulate in the nations' sports pages, but council members said they intended to keep a close eye on its use. "We came away with an understanding that as long as the university used the Ute name in a positive manner that preserved the integrity of the Ute tribe, we would allow the use of the name and the Ute logo [two eagle feathers and a drum]," says McCook. Florida State, likewise, uses the name Seminoles for its teams with the express approval of the Seminole nation."
- http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/magazine/08/17/indian.wars030402/index.html

[gazhekwe]

I have no problem seeing a tall dane performing a traditional native ceremony

I, on the other hand, have a serious problem with this. Traditional ceremonies may not be performed by persons not authorized to do so, even within the tribe. There are many parts to the practice of ceremonies that must be followed to prevent harm to participants. Look what happened when that unauthorized white self help guru tried to conduct a sweat lodge. He didn't do it properly, and three people died.

Let me add this, a Pakistani is welcome to learn a cajun song and dance, and may find it very enjoyable to do so. There is a difference between things done for enjoyment and entertainment alone, and things with a sacred intention. At our gatherings, come and dance a round dance or an intertribal, and have a great time, but stay out of the traditional dances held for honoring or healing unless you know what you are doing and why.

Should said Pakistani stand up and start singing the Kyrie Eleison and laughing and jumping about to be comical, you may feel a little different. Then again, maybe not.

[canuck]

Yes gazhekwe, but the mohawks stake the very claim of a warrior nation, and are proud and unabashed about this claim. It may actually be harmful to their other claims because it emanates from the community. If you drive through Kahnawake on the southside of Montreal, the reservation has probably more Star Spangled banners than Maple Leaf flags and more english than french on signs. Quebec Mohawks are in a permanent state of reaction to politics from outside. It is a traditional situation since they were on the english side in the french indian wars and got stuck in a progressively french ruled territory. They developed a reflex toward outsiders that is very defiant. That to me doesnt make them unidimensional, I know that they are more than warriors and high steel men building the skyscrapers of the northeast, more than the online casino operators and cigarette pedlars and gigantic gas station owners; but they are that too.


That is why I have no problem seeing a tall dane performing a traditional native ceremony, I have no qualms about a pakistani learning a cajun song and dance, I welcome it.

[gazhekwe]

Indeed, I find the entire idea of a person being used as a mascot demeaning. A mascot is not a person in a full sense, but just a good luck charm, or in the case of Native Americans, made out to be a scary representation of the ferocity of the team. Native Americans are the only group of living people used as mascots. While it is true Notre Dame's team name is The Fighting Irish, their mascot is a leprechaun, not a real Irish person.

Both UU and CMU worked it out to keep their name and got rid of their Indian mascots with the full agreement of the tribe. Both tribes keep an eye on things to make sure they continue to use the names respectfully.

[canuck]

I am not sure about the irish caricature being a leprechaun or a throwback to the 19th century depiction of a mick. I think that if we ban caricature we end up being ruled by those who have most to gain from this ban. Just look at the nutty fundamentalisms of the muslims where no human depiction whatever is accepted in artistic expression. What you get is a culture that is forever concerned about keeping up appearances, and the priests who took native kids away to better abuse them love to keep a tight lid on things.

As far as ceremonies go, that is something I cant fathom, so I will gladly let it go at that.

[gazhekwe]

They call him a leprechaun, that is all I know about it. Mythical character.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notre_Dame_Leprechaun

[canuck]

Every single human figure used as a mascot becomes a mythical character. Censoring this is just another way of saying nobody else can access my mythology, can share in a mythology or interpret a mythology. If this narcissistic view of culture is taken by a given individual or group, and censorship ensues, it will inevitably lead to a slow death of said mythology because there needs to be acquiescence and reinterpretation for it to live on.

I am also very sensitive to this issue like you gazhekwe, because as an artist I am called upon to work with symbols that beckon me without a rational basis. If censorship occurs, I am as unhappy as can be. I work as hard as possible to counter my inhibitions to eliminate the wrong kind of self censorship as well.

But beyond this, since the context of logotypes and mascots belong to the promotional end of business, I am aware that this can be a sore point for many. I still believe that a well intentioned use of a character is something to be honored and respected. I sense that people who conceptualized these mascots were looking for a strong identifier to the land we share with the first peoples, their bravery and I dont understand the disdain for this. Why not celebrate the Apaches alongside the Trojans? Do we need ask the "whites" to bury the glory of first nations yet again?

[gnome]

You are right Canuk, humans build cartoonish images of both heroes and villains. Paul Bunyan is certainly a cartoon of local lore whose image have been packaged and repackaged for financial gain.

if there are any giants around, they are more than welcome to come forward and object to the objectification of their brethren.

if tribal leaders feel that chief knock-a-homa is offensive, it is their call. We kind of f-ed up our right to have a say by laying siege to them for several hundred years.

[Hypestyles]

Whatever ends up happening, philosophically, it is extremely disheartening to know that in 2013, the most “mainstream” attention that native American culture gets are the garish sideline outfits worn by fans and official mascots, as a part of organized sports rituals where theattendants/participants may well be 99% non-indigenous, and who all may have learned little, if anything, about historic and contemporary native-americans intheir history classes.
Sure enough, Scandinavians exist now, but “The Vikings”haven’t for what, well over 800+ years now? It wasn’t really that long ago when native cultures faced a hastened marginalization/assimilation/oppression.