What if Detroit had enough cops?

[Motor City Sam]

Pointless because the problem isn't the police. You need more prisons and a tougher justice system [[like the three strikes you're out law in California).

In 2010, Detroit had over 32.1 cops per 10K. Los Angeles had 25.7 per 10K. FBI crime reporting system http://www.governing.com/gov-data/sa...or-cities.html

Yet, Los Angeles has a much lower crime rate.

How is it that Detroit lost almost 200K people in the last couple years and has the same police resources, yet the crime/homicide rates keep going up?

What does this tell you? The problem is not lack of police officers.

How many of these law breakers are repeat offenders and career criminals? Detroit has a revolving door justice system that is overwhelming police resources that needs to be addressed.

Having lived in Los Angeles and worked with the LA County Sheriff's Department, what I noticed is that a lot of police department jobs done by police officers in Detroit are done by civilians in LA. I mean the administrative and support jobs that don't require a sworn police officer.

One question about your post: Detroit has lost 200K in the past couple of years? We're down to 500K now? Or did you mean we lost 200K between the 2000 and 2010 Census?

If it's the latter, we certainly don't have the same number of police officers and resources we had back then. We've closed precincts, laid off officers, and left many officer slots vacant.

I agree with your point that Detroit has a revolving door justice system. We also have a horribly mismanaged department that is making poor use of the [[too few) police officers we have.

[davewindsor]

Having lived in Los Angeles and worked with the LA County Sheriff's Department, what I noticed is that a lot of police department jobs done by police officers in Detroit are done by civilians in LA. I mean the administrative and support jobs that don't require a sworn police officer.

One question about your post: Detroit has lost 200K in the past couple of years? We're down to 500K now? Or did you mean we lost 200K between the 2000 and 2010 Census?

If it's the latter, we certainly don't have the same number of police officers and resources we had back then. We've closed precincts, laid off officers, and left many officer slots vacant.

I agree with your point that Detroit has a revolving door justice system. We also have a horribly mismanaged department that is making poor use of the [[too few) police officers we have.

As I cited in the previous post, the FBI statistics say in 2010 the population was around 899K. I can't find anything from the FBI more recent. More recent news articles like this one from CNN money by Les Christie Jan 23/13 say it's now around 700K http://money.cnn.com/gallery/real_es...ies/index.html

Maybe the FBI uses a different counting method to arrive at that figure than the census that factors in homeless people or people that didn't register for the census. But, I think it's self evident that the population declined from 2010 to date.

As a side point, how do you lay off a Detroit Police Officer? Are you referring to attrition from retirees? The Police Union has long standing contracts with the city that would never allow layoffs unless an EFM took over the city and overwrote those agreements. All they've managed to do was reduce police salaries and close older buildings for a new one. When I'm talking about police resources, I'm referring to the amount of sworn officers. What evidence do you have that there was a significant drop in sworn officers from 2010 to 2013?

[Motor City Sam]

As I cited in the previous post, the FBI statistics say in 2010 the population was around 899K. I can't find anything from the FBI more recent. More recent news articles like this one from CNN money by Les Christie Jan 23/13 say it's now around 700K http://money.cnn.com/gallery/real_es...ies/index.html

Maybe the FBI uses a different counting method to arrive at that figure than the census that factors in homeless people or people that didn't register for the census. But, I think it's self evident that the population declined from 2010 to date.

As a side point, how do you lay off a Detroit Police Officer? Are you referring to attrition from retirees? The Police Union has long standing contracts with the city that would never allow layoffs unless an EFM took over the city and overwrote those agreements. All they've managed to do was reduce police salaries and close older buildings for a new one. When I'm talking about police resources, I'm referring to the amount of sworn officers. What evidence do you have that there was a significant drop in sworn officers from 2010 to 2013?

I didn't say we had a significant drop in sworn officers from 2010 to 2013. I asked if your comment about dropping 200K in population referred to "the last couple of years" as you stated, or if you meant that drop was from the 2000 census [[which was around 900K) to the 2010 census. I then commented that if you referred to the drop from census to census we don't have the same police resources today that we had in 2000.

The census in 2010 showed Detroit had a population of around 713,000. Obviously, that FBI report was using an estimate before the census came out, probably based on the 2000 census and taking into account some population loss. There is no way Detroit had 899,000 people in 2010.

I don't doubt the population has declined since 2010. You made the comment that it dropped by 200K in the past couple of years and I was just trying to get clarification on what were saying.

[davewindsor]

I didn't say we had a significant drop in sworn officers from 2010 to 2013. I asked if your comment about dropping 200K in population referred to "the last couple of years" as you stated, or if you meant that drop was from the 2000 census [[which was around 900K) to the 2010 census. I then commented that if you referred to the drop from census to census we don't have the same police resources today that we had in 2000.

The census in 2010 showed Detroit had a population of around 713,000. Obviously, that FBI report was using an estimate before the census came out, probably based on the 2000 census and taking into account some population loss. There is no way Detroit had 899,000 people in 2010.

I don't doubt the population has declined since 2010. You made the comment that it dropped by 200K in the past couple of years and I was just trying to get clarification on what were saying.

I still don't know if the FBI used the same counting method as the census used. Regardless, the counting method the FBI used in 2010 for Detroit to arrive at cops per 10K residents was the same counting method they used for Los Angeles. So, if we are comparing Detroit to LA, it's still relevant that LA was using a lot less sworn cops per capital just a couple years ago than Detroit was and they have a much lower crime/homicide rate as well as in 2010.

The point of the OP was we need more cops to deal with crime. My point is that a comparison with LA shows that lack of cops is not why the crime rate is so high in Detroit because Detroit had a lot more sworn cops per capita than LA did in 2010.

[Motor City Sam]

I still don't know if the FBI used the same counting method as the census used. Regardless, the counting method the FBI used in 2010 for Detroit to arrive at cops per 10K residents was the same counting method they used for Los Angeles. So, if we are comparing Detroit to LA, it's still relevant that LA was using a lot less sworn cops per capital just a couple years ago than Detroit was and they have a much lower crime/homicide rate as well as in 2010.

The point of the OP was we need more cops to deal with crime. My point is that a comparison with LA shows that lack of cops is not why the crime rate is so high in Detroit because Detroit had a lot more sworn cops per capita than LA did in 2010.

If the FBI is going to be almost 200,000 people off in estimating something like total population, I'm going to be less certain about the accuracy of all of their data and conclusions. You say they used the same counting method; I'm not sure they used any method at all, or where they got their estimates from.

For the record, I think Detroit needs more cops, but I also think they need to better utilize the cops they have. I'm not arguing against your basic point that just adding more cops won't fix things. My response was triggered by your assertion that Detroit lost 200K residents in the past couple of years.

[davewindsor]

If the FBI is going to be almost 200,000 people off in estimating something like total population, I'm going to be less certain about the accuracy of all of their data and conclusions. You say they used the same counting method; I'm not sure they used any method at all, or where they got their estimates from.

If you're going to start saying that a major government agency like the FBI fabricated crime statistics without anything to back it up [[just your opinion), then there's something seriously wrong with your head and an intelligent debate with you from this point on is pointless.

[Motor City Sam]

If you're going to start saying that a major government agency like the FBI fabricated crime statistics without anything to back it up [[just your opinion), then there's something seriously wrong with your head and an intelligent debate with you from this point on is pointless.

No need to start insulting people. I think you might want to brush up on your reading comprehension skills, though. At no point did I say the FBI fabricated crime stats. I said if they were 200K off on a population estimate, I wouldn't have certainty about the stats they came up with using that population estimate as a base. I don't see how that is controversial. The FBI said in that link that Detroit had a 2010 population of 899,000. The US census that came out for 2010 said the population was 713,000. Obviously, someone is wrong, and seeing as how the US Census Bureau actually conducted a full census, I'm going to go with their number as more likely to be true.

You want me to take the word of the FBI because it's a major government agency, but I should not consider the word of the US Census Bureau, also a major government agency?

Also, if you are the type of person that believes something to be absolutely true because it came from a major government agency, you also might want to brush up on your history.

And, finally, I think you're right about one thing. An intelligent debate with you is pointless, so I'll drop it now.