Why is the Motor-City in Detroit

[Hornwrecker]

Another industry that was flourishing in Detroit before the auto, was railroad carbuilding. Detroit was a major center of it due to lumber and iron working. A lot of the skills directly transferred over to the way early autos were made, especially from passenger cars. There were quite a few other manufacturers that supported this that then supplied the automakers, like paint and varnish mfgs, upholsterers, etc... There's been a few threads about it on this site. [[Can't find another website that covers all the local builders.)

List of carbuilders in MI: http://www.michiganrailroads.com/RRH...ildersMenu.htm

[Hermod]

distant memories?

Hudson, Nash, Studebaker, and Packard were old auto companies [[Nash also made Kelvinator appliances). People bought them post-war often as a "protest" against the Big Three. Unfortunately, the European and Japanese imports came along which were an even better form of protest.

Hudson and Packard plants got worn out during WWII doing war production and their sales volume post-war didn't generate the capital needed to upgrade and modernize. Hudson went into Nash which did have a decent plant in Kenosha. Packard went into Studebaker, but the Studebaker plant in South Bend was in as bad a shape as the Packard plant [[from a production tool and facility design aspect).

[Gannon]

The Nash/Kelvinator thing is why the Jeep had flat sides, hard-curved corners and a relatively appliance-like styling, right?! Or was it another car company/refrigerator maker?! [[and where did that piece of trivia come from...sometimes I wonder about myself...stuff I remember, at least halfway)

I'll bet that was from a classroom discussion during Materials Engineering at UofM-Dearborn in 1982. Ugh. Talking about how curvy steel has gotten over the years, versus overall thickness and weight and resistance to rust-through.

OK, gotta lay off the Anthology coffee. This is high-test. Or maybe I've merely over-dosed because it tastes so damned good. Y'all need to get to Corktown and search these fellows out...

[p69rrh51]

Hudson, Nash, Studebaker, and Packard were old auto companies [[Nash also made Kelvinator appliances). People bought them post-war often as a "protest" against the Big Three. Unfortunately, the European and Japanese imports came along which were an even better form of protest.

Hudson and Packard plants got worn out during WWII doing war production and their sales volume post-war didn't generate the capital needed to upgrade and modernize. Hudson went into Nash which did have a decent plant in Kenosha. Packard went into Studebaker, but the Studebaker plant in South Bend was in as bad a shape as the Packard plant [[from a production tool and facility design aspect).

Charles Nash bought Kelvinator so he could get George Mason[[No relation to George D. Mason) to run Nash Motors. Mason would not leave Kelvinator so Nash bought the company. I have to through in my two cents on one other local aspect Kelvinator hired J. Ivan Dise to design a model home to showcase central air conditioning. The homes were built all over the country. The project was the first big effort to sell AC to the public.

A little background on the Kelvinator homes.

http://www.chhistory.org/FeatureStor...ory=KelvinHome

[Detroitnerd]

Detroit was also an early center of the interurban electric railroads. Some of the wealthy invested in the interurban industry and some invested in the new-fangled car industry. Guess who guessed right?

Guessing had nothing to do with it.

When the government is determined to build the infrastructure for one product, at no charge to the producer, that product is going to win. If the government had decided, for instance, that it was going to build electrified rail for the interurbans, imagine how profitable they would have been! Instead, starting in the 1910s, governments at all levels started pushing forward ambitious road-building projects. The auto companies benefited and these subsidies helped put the relatively efficient interurban out of business.

As usual, the beneficiaries were big investors and big auto companies, with the public picking up the bill. Nice "guesswork."

[rb336]

Guessing had nothing to do with it.

When the government is determined to build the infrastructure for one product, at no charge to the producer, that product is going to win. If the government had decided, for instance, that it was going to build electrified rail for the interurbans, imagine how profitable they would have been! Instead, starting in the 1910s, governments at all levels started pushing forward ambitious road-building projects. The auto companies benefited and these subsidies helped put the relatively efficient interurban out of business.

As usual, the beneficiaries were big investors and big auto companies, with the public picking up the bill. Nice "guesswork."

I have been trying to find out how much funding was given to railroads while the Interstates were being built. by the 50s, our railroad infrastructure was already "mature." hard to make strong comparisons between the two without access to the data

[Detroitnerd]

I have been trying to find out how much funding was given to railroads while the Interstates were being built. by the 50s, our railroad infrastructure was already "mature." hard to make strong comparisons between the two without access to the data

Railroads did receive subsidies. Lavish subsidies. That's why railroads were once king. They were given millions of dollars, millions of acres of land and carte blanche to build transcontinental railroads after the Civil War. They were bought up by ruthless "robber barons" who bribed the government, abused the public trust, extorted as much money as possible from other businesses and were generally hated by the public by the end of the robber barons' reign. As a result, railroads were very heavily regulated by government. And would finally get very little in the way of subsidies.

What the U.S. government DID subsidize in a big was was road-building. From the first federal act in 1912 through to today, government's main subsidy to the auto business has been to build -- free of charge -- the right of way it runs upon.

The U.S. government has long subsidized air travel, and those subsidies have increased even since the airlines were freed of much federal regulation in 1978.

The dual pressure of car subsidies and airline subsidies were too much for railroad passenger service to compete with. America's railroads were forced by regulation to run money-losing passenger service along with their money-making freight service.

In 1970, the feds stepped in and relieved the railroads of their passenger service by forming Amtrak.

IIRC, I believe the figures will show that, since 1970, federal subsidies to roads and cars have doubled, federal subsidies to airlines and air travel have tripled, and federal subsidies to passenger rail service have been halved.

[Hermod]

The Nash/Kelvinator thing is why the Jeep had flat sides, hard-curved corners and a relatively appliance-like styling, right?! Or was it another car company/refrigerator maker?! [[and where did that piece of trivia come from...sometimes I wonder about myself...stuff I remember, at least halfway)

The first jeep was made by American Bantam Car Co and had some curves. Because American Bantam had rather limited production capability, the Army transferred the production order for the jeeps to Willys-Overland and paifd off Bantam with an order for small trailers.

Willy-Overland couldn't keep up with the jeep demand and about 30% of the production [[as I recall) went to Ford. Postwar, Willys claimed ownership of the "Jeep" brand with counterclaims from the Army [[who had built the prototype and by Bantam. I don't know the details, but Willys ended up with owning the Jeep brandname.

When Willys got the production order, they simplified the body and fender style as much as possible. which is why the fenders were flat [[untile the CJ-5).

[Hermod]

Railroads did receive subsidies. Lavish subsidies. That's why railroads were once king. They were given millions of dollars, millions of acres of land and carte blanche to build transcontinental railroads after the Civil War.

In order to get the railroads to build rail lines through sparsely populated areas where there was insufficient population to support a railroad, the railroad companies were granted "alternate sections" of government owned land along the rail line. For the first mile, the railroad received a square mile of land on the right side of the tracks. For the second mile, the railroad got a square mile on the left side of the tracks. The railroad could then sell this land cheaply to domestic and immigrant farmers to provide business for the railroad. The government benefited because the presence of the railroad increased the value of the government-owned land along the route that was not given to the railroad. The government could then sell this land for much more than they could prior to the building of the railroad.

[nain rouge]

Trivia question: We throw around the term "Big Three" today, who knows what the opposite of "the big three" was called?

Ah, I learned this at the Walter P. Chrysler Museum. The answer is the "Little Four".

[Detroitnerd]

In order to get the railroads to build rail lines through sparsely populated areas where there was insufficient population to support a railroad, the railroad companies were granted "alternate sections" of government owned land along the rail line. For the first mile, the railroad received a square mile of land on the right side of the tracks. For the second mile, the railroad got a square mile on the left side of the tracks. The railroad could then sell this land cheaply to domestic and immigrant farmers to provide business for the railroad. The government benefited because the presence of the railroad increased the value of the government-owned land along the route that was not given to the railroad. The government could then sell this land for much more than they could prior to the building of the railroad.

Yeah, except that the way the railroads handled it, those parcels often wound up not in the hands of taxpaying immigrants but in the hands of large mining and logging firms, especially in the Pacific Northwest. To this day, logging firms do damaging clearcuts on that land, which hardly raises the value of the adjoining land at all. Again, this is another example of large, extractive firms rushing in to make profits, and the public picking up the bill for it. A story that continues to this day.

Anyway, as a railroad buff, you should know this. It's all spelled out in "Railroads & Clearcuts" by Derrick Jensen and George Draffan, about which one reviewer said: "This is the story of the biggest land grant in American history, larger than 10 Connecticuts, to railroad companies and how the timber companies got hold of huge forests to clearcut. Jensen and Draffan point the way to returning these lands to their rightful owners -- the American people who will preserve them for future generations. A revealing report of government giveaways and corporate perfidy and greed that motivates corrective action."

John Mumma, a U.S. Forest Service regional forester, said, “Probably no other single event in this country has contributed more to the current Northwest forest crisis than the profit-driven harvest activities on the old railroad checkerboard lands."

For more on "checkerboard clearcuts," see http://www.waterplanet.ws/railroads/photoessay/

[Hermod]

Yeah, except that the way the railroads handled it, those parcels often wound up not in the hands of taxpaying immigrants but in the hands of large mining and logging firms, especially in the Pacific Northwest. To this day, logging firms do damaging clearcuts on that land, which hardly raises the value of the adjoining land at all. Again, this is another example of large, extractive firms rushing in to make profits, and the public picking up the bill for it. A story that continues to this day.

It happened in northern Michigan as well. The railroad/lumber companies extracted the timber while building the railroad through the timber. When the logging was done, the railroad then sold the land for farming. Unfortunately, north of the Saginaw-Holland line, the land is pretty much worthless for farming. The farmers tried for a year or two and then moved on further west. With not enough population to support a railroad, the railroads then went bankrupt. Michigan led the nation in the percentage of its rail net abandoned in 1900-1910, 1910-1920, 1920-1930, 1930-1940, and 1940-1950. North of Saginaw-Holland and the entire Youpee is littered with the remains of abandoned railroads and ghost towns. The timber magnates/railroad barons did become wealthy during the extraction period and Grosse Pointe was founded by these wealthy timber interests.

All Aboard: A History of Railroads in Michigan by Willis Frederick Dunbar, 1969,
Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company

Writing the book in 1969, Dunbar didn't see the carnage to the Michigan rail net in the aftermath of the Penn-Central merger, Conrail, and the sale of Conrail over the last forty years.

[rb336]

this has been a fun, informative thread. thanks everyone!

Nain -- who was in the "little four"? I'm guessing Studebaker, Nash, Willy's, Hudson?

[Hermod]

this has been a fun, informative thread. thanks everyone!

Nain -- who was in the "little four"? I'm guessing Studebaker, Nash, Willy's, Hudson?

Studebaker, Nash, Packard, and Hudson.

Kaiser-Willys was pretty much making jeeps and trucks.

[Hermod]

Studebaker, Nash, Packard, and Hudson.

Kaiser-Willys was pretty much making jeeps and trucks.

The last passenger cars from Kaiser and from Willys were made in 1955 [[in very small quantities).

[Honky Tonk]

Gannon pretty much hit it on the head, the presence of iron casting equipment and talent already in place, coupled with the geographic location for iron ore shipping, coupled with the presence of Ford, Dodge [[very important name/family in the business) and Durant in one place combined made this area the dominant center. Indiana had 5 auto companies in the 20s and 30s, Auburn, Cord, Duesenberg, Stutz and Studebaker. Studebaker was a very large company that had the ability to produce large volume, low to mid priced vehicles. Earlier there were groupings of companies in upstate NY and New England. They lacked the ability to make the "next logical step" as Henry Ford figured out here, and Buick/Chevrolet emulated. Walter P. Chrysler only lived in Michigan during his days at Buick, during the life of his Chrylser corporation he lived in upstate NY and commuted to Detroit via the NY Central railroad and stayed in a suite in the Tuller hotel. His empire was built on the backbone of the Maxwell-Chalmers company, his 1928 purchase of the Dodge Brothers company from NY financiers was huge, the mouse swallowing the elephant, and it gave him vast production facilities and an established dealer network overnight. Nash stands out as a very successful make, located a considerable distance from Detroit in Kenosha WI, but again, along the ship routes for ore.

California was mostly rural, with one large city, San Francisco unitl after WWII. Dodge, Studebaker, Ford and Chevrolet had assembly plants there early on, to contain shipping costs across this vast country.

Trivia question: We throw around the term "Big Three" today, who knows what the opposite of "the big three" was called?

The "Anti-Three"? In California, in the mid-70's, it was referred to as "The Big 5", including Toyota and Honda too.

[p69rrh51]

Gannon pretty much hit it on the head, the presence of iron casting equipment and talent already in place, coupled with the geographic location for iron ore shipping, coupled with the presence of Ford, Dodge [[very important name/family in the business) and Durant in one place combined made this area the dominant center. Indiana had 5 auto companies in the 20s and 30s, Auburn, Cord, Duesenberg, Stutz and Studebaker. Studebaker was a very large company that had the ability to produce large volume, low to mid priced vehicles. Earlier there were groupings of companies in upstate NY and New England. They lacked the ability to make the "next logical step" as Henry Ford figured out here, and Buick/Chevrolet emulated. Walter P. Chrysler only lived in Michigan during his days at Buick, during the life of his Chrylser corporation he lived in upstate NY and commuted to Detroit via the NY Central railroad and stayed in a suite in the Tuller hotel. His empire was built on the backbone of the Maxwell-Chalmers company, his 1928 purchase of the Dodge Brothers company from NY financiers was huge, the mouse swallowing the elephant, and it gave him vast production facilities and an established dealer network overnight. Nash stands out as a very successful make, located a considerable distance from Detroit in Kenosha WI, but again, along the ship routes for ore.

California was mostly rural, with one large city, San Francisco unitl after WWII. Dodge, Studebaker, Ford and Chevrolet had assembly plants there early on, to contain shipping costs across this vast country.

Trivia question: We throw around the term "Big Three" today, who knows what the opposite of "the big three" was called?

56packman you are forgetting Marmon, Haynes, Lexington, McFarlin, ReVere, and National they were all manufacturing automobiles mostly in the 1920's in the state of Indiana. Marmon was one of the few members of the V-16 club. Although they only produced a few hundred of the V-16's around 1931.

[Detroitnerd]

It happened in northern Michigan as well. The railroad/lumber companies extracted the timber while building the railroad through the timber. When the logging was done, the railroad then sold the land for farming. Unfortunately, north of the Saginaw-Holland line, the land is pretty much worthless for farming. The farmers tried for a year or two and then moved on further west. With not enough population to support a railroad, the railroads then went bankrupt. Michigan led the nation in the percentage of its rail net abandoned in 1900-1910, 1910-1920, 1920-1930, 1930-1940, and 1940-1950.

I'll never understand extractive industries. They want to do everything in the most damaging way possible, and then the land is cleared and the workers who did it are unemployed and the area crashes. Environmentalists and labor organizers fight it, but seldom win. The companies scare their workers into hating and fearing the very forces that would extend the harvesting of those resources and ensure their continued employment, either doing the extracting or mitigating the damage. I wonder how much of that abandonment could have been avoided. My great-grandfather was a logger and millwright during the "Michigan boom" after the Civil War. By the time the boom was over, he and the boys were scrambling around the country for work, or working as draymen taking the baggage of the rich to the large hotels in Harbor Springs. Meanwhile, as you point out, all the wealth was already gone away to the Pointes.

The death of Michigan's small towns between 1900 and 1945 is a remarkable and seldom-told story. I remember one volume called Michigan Shadow Towns [[as distinct from "ghost towns") that catalogued how many settlements disappeared due to natural disasters, real estate gambles gone bad, or just the centralization of industry that happened during that period. [[You could also say the "death" of Detroit is the next step in that process of centralization -- globalization, or global centralization of power and production...)

But, on a less sociopolitical level, some of that abandonment must have been because it was irregular track for Shay locomotives doing the logging that never was worth upgrading.

[56packman]

Ah, I learned this at the Walter P. Chrysler Museum. The answer is the "Little Four".

Well, that's close enough, it was the "little 5" Nash, Hudson, Packard, Studebaker and Willys. BTW--I wrote the text and supplied images for the banner you saw at the WPC Museum. Those were some good times.

[56packman]

56packman you are forgetting Marmon, Haynes, Lexington, McFarlin, ReVere, and National they were all manufacturing automobiles mostly in the 1920's in the state of Indiana. Marmon was one of the few members of the V-16 club. Although they only produced a few hundred of the V-16's around 1931.

You are absolutely correct. Marmon was a magnificent car, and the others were each stong in their own way. The Indiana were technogically ahead of their Detroit rivals, mainly due to the proxmity to the Indianopolis speedway and the demands of racing. Detroit was, as is, about doing what is going to make money THIS quarter.

[Hermod]

Well, that's close enough, it was the "little 5" Nash, Hudson, Packard, Studebaker and Willys. BTW--I wrote the text and supplied images for the banner you saw at the WPC Museum. Those were some good times.

Little Six as Kaiser-Frazer and Willys were separate companies until 1953 when Kaiser bought Willys..

[Hermod]

But, on a less sociopolitical level, some of that abandonment must have been because it was irregular track for Shay locomotives doing the logging that never was worth upgrading.

You had to build "permanent way" to qualify as a "common carrier" for the right to claim alternate sections. The railroads that had to be abandoned were common carriers. In addition to qualifying for alternate sections, the rationale for making a lumbering road into a "common carrier" which accepted freight and passengers from anyone on the line was that when you shipped your lumber, you received the "originating carrier's" share of the freight tariff. If you were just a private lumber or mining line, you were only a "shipper" and did not receive a share of the freight tariff.

The economic model was not to leave devastation behind. The model was to log off the land, sell the timber, sell the land to farmers and immigrants, and have a going railroad with the farmers shipping out their crops and getting inbound shipments of manufactured goods. In other words, it was planned as a long term going concern. It differed from the prairies in that you got an upfront monetary boost from the sale of the timber rather than having to wait on the farm trade to develop. The problem in Michigan is that north of Saginaw-Holland and in the Yoopee, the land sucks for farming [[I think I read that the soil is too acidic) and the farmers after a couple of bad year moved on.

The only thing that even kept railroads going in the northern part of the "mitten" was the operation of the car ferries at Ludington [[PM/C&O), Frankfort [[AA), and Mackinac [[NYC and PRR). When the car ferries became uneconomic to operate, the railroads going up there became uneconomic as there wasn't enough traffic generated on line.

[56packman]

The exact composition of the "litle 5" was open to interpretation, but the number stood at 5, at least in conversation and in print.

[Detroitnerd]

The economic model was not to leave devastation behind. ...

Heh, well, nobody ever sets out on any endeavor saying, "This is it, boys! We're going to make the world a worse place than it was!" As you say, the program had a constructive purpose. It's just that maximizing profit means shrugging about all other consequences.

[ElbertHanks]

California was mostly rural, with one large city, San Francisco unitl after WWII. Dodge, Studebaker, Ford and Chevrolet had assembly plants there early on, to contain shipping costs across this vast country.

Don't forget the City of Los Angeles which experienced rapid growth in the first half of the 20th century going from 100k residents in 1900 to 1.9M by 1950.

The rise of Hollywood presents its own fascinating story of why an industry became dominant in one locale which was so far from the dominant East coast population centers. Like Detroit there were multiple reasons. Climate served as one factor. Interestingly, Thomas Edison owned patents on much of the equipment used in the industry [[and charged exorbitant licensing fees) and it was his agents zeal in seizing equipment which infringed on patents or which the producers didn't hold rights to which led to many locating as faraway from the East Coast as they could get. California being that place with Mexico being nearby providing added protection from Edison's reach. Interesting story, and much like Detroit once most of the major players were in one location it became dominant.