Why is the Motor-City in Detroit

**AUSSIE** · February-05-13, 07:02 PM

I was thinking the other day [that's a world first!

] how did Detroit become THE MotorCity Inc?

Was it because the Fords, Chrysler families where from this area or other?

Would it not have been better to build say in California with its larger market and wharf/docks?

Cheers

**Hermod** · February-05-13, 07:25 PM

When the industry became centered in Detroit around 1920, California was not the market that it is today.

The industry became located in Detroit because there were a lot of men who had become wealthy in the mining and timber industries living near Detroit and they had money to invest.

Detroit was also an early center of the interurban electric railroads. Some of the wealthy invested in the interurban industry and some invested in the new-fangled car industry. Guess who guessed right?

**Detroitnerd** · February-06-13, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

Detroit was also an early center of the interurban electric railroads. Some of the wealthy invested in the interurban industry and some invested in the new-fangled car industry. Guess who guessed right?

Guessing had nothing to do with it.

When the government is determined to build the infrastructure for one product, at no charge to the producer, that product is going to win. If the government had decided, for instance, that it was going to build electrified rail for the interurbans, imagine how profitable they would have been! Instead, starting in the 1910s, governments at all levels started pushing forward ambitious road-building projects. The auto companies benefited and these subsidies helped put the relatively efficient interurban out of business.

As usual, the beneficiaries were big investors and big auto companies, with the public picking up the bill. Nice "guesswork."

**rb336** · February-06-13, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Guessing had nothing to do with it.

When the government is determined to build the infrastructure for one product, at no charge to the producer, that product is going to win. If the government had decided, for instance, that it was going to build electrified rail for the interurbans, imagine how profitable they would have been! Instead, starting in the 1910s, governments at all levels started pushing forward ambitious road-building projects. The auto companies benefited and these subsidies helped put the relatively efficient interurban out of business.

As usual, the beneficiaries were big investors and big auto companies, with the public picking up the bill. Nice "guesswork."

I have been trying to find out how much funding was given to railroads while the Interstates were being built. by the 50s, our railroad infrastructure was already "mature." hard to make strong comparisons between the two without access to the data

**Detroitnerd** · February-06-13, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by rb336

I have been trying to find out how much funding was given to railroads while the Interstates were being built. by the 50s, our railroad infrastructure was already "mature." hard to make strong comparisons between the two without access to the data

Railroads did receive subsidies. Lavish subsidies. That's why railroads were once king. They were given millions of dollars, millions of acres of land and carte blanche to build transcontinental railroads after the Civil War. They were bought up by ruthless "robber barons" who bribed the government, abused the public trust, extorted as much money as possible from other businesses and were generally hated by the public by the end of the robber barons' reign. As a result, railroads were very heavily regulated by government. And would finally get very little in the way of subsidies.

What the U.S. government DID subsidize in a big was was road-building. From the first federal act in 1912 through to today, government's main subsidy to the auto business has been to build -- free of charge -- the right of way it runs upon.

The U.S. government has long subsidized air travel, and those subsidies have increased even since the airlines were freed of much federal regulation in 1978.

The dual pressure of car subsidies and airline subsidies were too much for railroad passenger service to compete with. America's railroads were forced by regulation to run money-losing passenger service along with their money-making freight service.

In 1970, the feds stepped in and relieved the railroads of their passenger service by forming Amtrak.

IIRC, I believe the figures will show that, since 1970, federal subsidies to roads and cars have doubled, federal subsidies to airlines and air travel have tripled, and federal subsidies to passenger rail service have been halved.

**Hermod** · February-06-13, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Railroads did receive subsidies. Lavish subsidies. That's why railroads were once king. They were given millions of dollars, millions of acres of land and carte blanche to build transcontinental railroads after the Civil War.

In order to get the railroads to build rail lines through sparsely populated areas where there was insufficient population to support a railroad, the railroad companies were granted "alternate sections" of government owned land along the rail line. For the first mile, the railroad received a square mile of land on the right side of the tracks. For the second mile, the railroad got a square mile on the left side of the tracks. The railroad could then sell this land cheaply to domestic and immigrant farmers to provide business for the railroad. The government benefited because the presence of the railroad increased the value of the government-owned land along the route that was not given to the railroad. The government could then sell this land for much more than they could prior to the building of the railroad.

**nain rouge** · February-05-13, 07:35 PM

First and foremost, we got lucky that Henry Ford was born in Michigan. And because Detroit was already an industrial center and the state of Michigan had a great supply of natural resources, Ford himself had no reason to move - he could easily build his cars here.

Secondly, as Ford Motor Co. grew and grew, suppliers built up around the company, which later made it efficient for other car companies to start up or continue operations in or close to Detroit. After all, why wouldn't you want to be close to your suppliers and a workforce that is already trained?

Cities/areas like Milwaukee and Cincinnati did try to get in on the automobile frenzy, but we're simply unable to compete with the efficiency of Detroit once Ford got big. I find Crosley Motors [[not to be confused with British Crossley Motors, although it IS easy to confuse the two) in Cincinnati to be particularly fascinating. In the '40s they had a powerful engine that could be put in a station wagon and still achieve roughly 45 MPG. Today, you'd think that was impossible.

**p69rrh51** · February-05-13, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by nain rouge

First and foremost, we got lucky that Henry Ford was born in Michigan. And because Detroit was already an industrial center and the state of Michigan had a great supply of natural resources, Ford himself had no reason to move - he could easily build his cars here.

Secondly, as Ford Motor Co. grew and grew, suppliers built up around the company, which later made it efficient for other car companies to start up or continue operations in or close to Detroit. After all, why wouldn't you want to be close to your suppliers and a workforce that is already trained?

Cities/areas like Milwaukee and Cincinnati did try to get in on the automobile frenzy, but we're simply unable to compete with the efficiency of Detroit once Ford got big. I find Crosley Motors [[not to be confused with British Crossley Motors, although it IS easy to confuse the two) in Cincinnati to be particularly fascinating. In the '40s they had a powerful engine that could be put in a station wagon and still achieve roughly 45 MPG. Today, you'd think that was impossible.

Nain both Milwaukee and Cincinnati never could have competed with Detroit. Indianapolis was probably the only city that came close to becoming the motor city. As mentioned above Ford along with GM, Chrysler and the large number of independents overpowered the auto companies from Indianapolis.

**nain rouge** · February-05-13, 08:13 PM

You're right. I forgot all about that.

**Hermod** · February-05-13, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by nain rouge

First and foremost, we got lucky that Henry Ford was born in Michigan. And because Detroit was already an industrial center and the state of Michigan had a great supply of natural resources, Ford himself had no reason to move - he could easily build his cars here.

Secondly, as Ford Motor Co. grew and grew, suppliers built up around the company, which later made it efficient for other car companies to start up or continue operations in or close to Detroit. After all, why wouldn't you want to be close to your suppliers and a workforce that is already trained?

Cities/areas like Milwaukee and Cincinnati did try to get in on the automobile frenzy, but we're simply unable to compete with the efficiency of Detroit once Ford got big. I find Crosley Motors [[not to be confused with British Crossley Motors, although it IS easy to confuse the two) in Cincinnati to be particularly fascinating. In the '40s they had a powerful engine that could be put in a station wagon and still achieve roughly 45 MPG. Today, you'd think that was impossible.

The engine in the late-40s Crosley's were not that powerful. It was put-put-put down the streets of the urb. Think early-VW Beetles.

**nain rouge** · February-05-13, 08:31 PM

And I'll have you know, for example, that Crosley Motors drove one of their station wagons for over 100 days straight/50,000+ miles in 1949, and according to the company, it performed admirably.

**nain rouge** · February-05-13, 08:29 PM

I guess I should add a disclaimer to my original post. I've learned almost everything I know about automotive history from a book on Chrysler I bought for $2.50 the day before the Walter P. Chrysler Museum closed, perusing through some of the Gerber scrapbooks at the Skillman Branch of the DPL, and a watching a couple videos on Ford [[including all of the videos that accompany Diego Rivera's Detroit Industry mural at the DIA). So I have colorful accounts, but apparently I may lack accuracy.

**p69rrh51** · February-05-13, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by nain rouge

I guess I should add a disclaimer to my original post. I've learned almost everything I know about automotive history from a book on Chrysler I bought for $2.50 the day before the Walter P. Chrysler Museum closed, perusing through some of the Gerber scrapbooks at the Skillman Branch of the DPL, and a watching a couple videos on Ford [[including all of the videos that accompany Diego Rivera's Detroit Industry mural at the DIA). So I have colorful accounts, but apparently I may lack accuracy.

Nain if you want to improve your automobile knowledge without reading a very long dry book try Automobile Quarterly. They have been publishing 4 hard bound books with magazine style articles a year since 1962. There is hardly a subject/company that has not been covered.

**Gannon** · February-05-13, 10:18 PM

We can't forget the legacy of ironworks serving the stove industry here prior to the advent of automobiles, too, right?!

Due the fortuitous placement of this city on the straight where most of the iron ore and other raw materials mined around Lake Superior and Lake Michigan had to pass to get anywhere [[save perhaps Milwaukee and Gary, which both developed their own iron producers and uses for the metal)...then later, with the opening of the St. Lawrence Seaway, greater access to the world's sources and eventually markets, too.

I'm pretty sure being in the middle of the forests of the north and not far from the coal-fields of Pennsylvania [[again, thank the Lakes and the Straight) didn't hurt, either.

Plus, one of ours also invented the stripe in the middle of the road. There's always that.

This could be provincial myopia, but I don't remember any evolution of auto final assembly plants well outside the Detroit area until late in the century...easily twenty years after the strengths of the Detroit makers destroyed almost all of the smaller companies, or gobbled 'em up. I don't remember significant manufacturing anywhere outside Detroit/Flint [[an hour north) before the 70s [[other than Jeep down in Toledo, an hour south), although GM did have stuff up near Toronto, at least, by '72. Funny, thinking on that hour boundary, GM did have a significant presence in Lansing, an hour west.

When nearly everything was made here in the city, though? Whoa. We used to have to drive past the Ford Rouge complex to get my father to work at the Fisher Body Fleetwood plant...which is where they made the back 2/3rds of the Cadillacs. These coaches would ride in special trucks a few miles to another plant which mated 'em to the drivetrain/chassis/front suspension & bodywork [[which had already been painted). So, on the SouthWest side, you'd always see these weird silver trucks from Fisher Body, carrying six or seven almost built Caddys. God help you, though, when you got caught behind one of the stinky slag trucks taking the steel waste away from the Rouge. I still cannot drive down Dix or Meyers without thinking of those days.

The Rouge was never not busy, and always made the skies glow an intense orange-red at night...from rows upon rows of long bars of cooling steel which landed with showers of sparks, everything white hot, sitting outside in the night air. I cannot imagine there ever being another American city like what we had during my youth in the 60s and 70s.

Cheers!

**Jimaz** · February-05-13, 10:30 PM

Gannon beat me to it.

The combination of iron ore and coal proximity and efficient waterway transportation all added up to the Motor City.

Those Great Lakes are good for something!

**Gannon** · February-05-13, 10:59 PM

I'm doubting my memories on the whole factory thing.

Stuff GM had in Indy was AC Delco, I'm pretty sure. Although Studebaker/Avanti was built just north of there...the Avanti ended up being considered a specialty car.

Nope, cannot remember any significant manufacturing well beyond an hour perimeter from Detroit prior to the 70s, after the great consolodation down to the Big Four. But I really don't know where any of those ugly AMCs were made...

**p69rrh51** · February-05-13, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by Gannon

I'm doubting my memories on the whole factory thing.

Stuff GM had in Indy was AC Delco, I'm pretty sure. Although Studebaker/Avanti was built just north of there...the Avanti ended up being considered a specialty car.

Nope, cannot remember any significant manufacturing well beyond an hour perimeter from Detroit prior to the 70s, after the great consolodation down to the Big Four. But I really don't know where any of those ugly AMCs were made...

AMC had manufacturing plants in Kenosha Wisconsin left over from Nash. Ford and GM had plants outside of Detroit prior to the 1970's. Lordstown is one of the plants that comes to mind. Studebaker was located in South Bend, IN. There was a Fisher Body Plant in Cleveland built in the 1920's designed by Albert Kahn if I remember correctly.

**rb336** · February-07-13, 10:38 AM

this has been a fun, informative thread. thanks everyone!

Nain -- who was in the "little four"? I'm guessing Studebaker, Nash, Willy's, Hudson?

**Hermod** · February-07-13, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by rb336

this has been a fun, informative thread. thanks everyone!

Nain -- who was in the "little four"? I'm guessing Studebaker, Nash, Willy's, Hudson?

Studebaker, Nash, Packard, and Hudson.

Kaiser-Willys was pretty much making jeeps and trucks.

**Hermod** · February-07-13, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by Hermod

Studebaker, Nash, Packard, and Hudson.

Kaiser-Willys was pretty much making jeeps and trucks.

The last passenger cars from Kaiser and from Willys were made in 1955 [[in very small quantities).

**Don K** · February-06-13, 12:14 AM

Originally Posted by Gannon

But I really don't know where any of those ugly AMCs were made...

Well, the AMCs came off the line in Kenosha, WI.

Back to the original topic, I suppose the main reasons Detroit became the Motor City are the introduction of the Model T by Henry I and the formation of GM by William Durant, both in 1908.

I'm not really a believer in geographic determinism, because it gives no way to explain why Detroit became the Motor City and not Chicago, Cleveland, Milwaukee, or Kenosha. I'd say it was just happenstance that Henry was born in Greenfield Township and Durant was in control of Buick and was able to leverage that into the creation of GM. Once those two companies were dominant in the industry, then Detroit was by default the Silicon Valley of the era, where suppliers had to be located.

**DetroitPlanner** · February-05-13, 11:24 PM

I am giving it to Gannon as well. In addition Detroit had a lot of industrial expertise that lent itself to the making of parts. It was a leading producer of brass pieces, wagons, wheels, and carriages.

The capital was here as well. People like the Whitneys, Ferrys and the Hudsons had deep pockets and were looking to invest.

**p69rrh51** · February-05-13, 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

I am giving it to Gannon as well. In addition Detroit had a lot of industrial expertise that lent itself to the making of parts. It was a leading producer of brass pieces, wagons, wheels, and carriages.

The capital was here as well. People like the Whitneys, Ferrys and the Hudsons had deep pockets and were looking to invest.

I know Hudson invested in the company that bares his name, but I have not come across any investment by the Whitney or Ferry families. I would love to know who they invested in.

**Gannon** · February-06-13, 12:07 AM

Oops, that wiki is longer than I thought, they have another section for closed plants. Damn.

Kansas City.

Baltimore...at least for GM Coach and Bus.

Geez, Fremont opened in 1960! I would've bet against that one...damn.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...tors_factories

The Ford listing doesn't show the year opened or closed...worthless.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ford_factories

And I thought the one thing I learned today was about how some spoiled South American coffee smells like rotten potatoes [[not kidding). Something about the bacteria from a bug that gets in a few of the fruit when ripe.

Factory history is fascinating...as is our city's, even if the study is prompted by someone half a world away!

Cheers

**p69rrh51** · February-06-13, 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by Gannon

Oops, that wiki is longer than I thought, they have another section for closed plants. Damn.

Kansas City.

Baltimore...at least for GM Coach and Bus.

Geez, Fremont opened in 1960! I would've bet against that one...damn.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...tors_factories

The Ford listing doesn't show the year opened or closed...worthless.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ford_factories

And I thought the one thing I learned today was about how some spoiled South American coffee smells like rotten potatoes [[not kidding). Something about the bacteria from a bug that gets in a few of the fruit when ripe.

Factory history is fascinating...as is our city's, even if the study is prompted by someone half a world away!

Cheers

We sometimes forget how big the big three really were!