CPL Holder Defends Self and Students at DPS High School.

[lpg]

@quito, yes, that is it exactly. If you have people in the house who have access to the guns, they should be legal as well. Too many kids have been hurt or killed with their or somebody's parents' guns. Adam Lanza used his mother's guns.

You could also expand that to ban the possession of motor vehicles in a house with unlicensed or underage people living there. Same logic.

[gazhekwe]

It is not easy to commit mass murder with a car. Accidents do happen, with many things, few as lethal as guns.

[Hermod]

The only difference between the AR-15 and the M-16 is the lack of a fire selector lever. I've sent enough rounds downrange with each, as a civi and in the Army, to know. In fact, the only reason the military calls it the M-16 rather than the AR-15 is because they change it to an "M" designation once it gets selected.

They are quite literally the same weapon, same action, same everything, save for that fire selector lever.

The AR-15 was privately developed, then sold to the Army. The Army type classified it as the M-16. The AR-15 was designed around the .223 cal cartridge which was developed as a hunting cartridge. The Army calls it the 5.56mm round [[and the power has been jacked up a bit to allow the M16 to reliably function at full-auto).

The current civilian .308 round, however is based on the 7.62mm NATO military round [[used in the M14 rifle and the M60 machine gun). The current civilian M1A rifle in .308 is a close copy of the M14 without the provision for conversion to full auto fire [[we used to keep the selector bars locked up separately from the M14s).

I never saw a civilian version of the M1 in .30-06, but there were a lot of civilian arms chambered for that round. There are many copies of the M1911A1 pistol on the market as well as its successor, the M9.

Don't get your panties in a wad about the similarity of guns on the civilian market to military issue.

Oooooooooooooh, I almost forgot, President John F. Kennedy was assassinated with a full military weapon which was Italian war surplus [[only dropped once).

[Jason]

Resisting government tyranny was one of the reasons for the amendment. Citizens having guns wouldn't be as good as a proper military, but it would be comparable enough that they could compete.


But today the federal government has nuclear weapons. If that's the intent of the 2nd amendment and we're going to stick to it, then that means that private citizens have the right to have nuclear weapons, fighter jets, tanks, aircraft carriers and all that so that the militias are strong enough to resist the military. If you translate the situation in the 1700s to today, that's what you have to do.

But obviously it's ridiculous that a private citizen would have nuclear weapons. So what we have is a gradient, with hunting rifles on one end and nuclear bombs on the other end, and everything in between, and somewhere along the gradient is the cut off between what's reasonable and what's not reasonable. The debate is about the gradient.


I think the kids got what was coming to them, but I don't think that teenagers and senior citizen coaches have guns and shooting each other up in schools is a sign that lax gun controls are good. I think it means the entire situation is messed up and we should be working harder at fixing it.

[lpg]

It is not easy to commit mass murder with a car. Accidents do happen, with many things, few as lethal as guns.

True, but never underestimate a persons ability to do evil. Remember Oklahoma City.

[guito13]

@quito, yes, that is it exactly. If you have people in the house who have access to the guns, they should be legal as well. Too many kids have been hurt or killed with their or somebody's parents' guns. Adam Lanza used his mother's guns.

So you are telling me that I shouldnt have the right to have a firearm in my house to protect MY children??? I keep my weapons in a safe place and ensure they cant get to them. That being said, I am ok with a parent being held accountable to some extent if their child gets ahold of their gun and uses it illegally.

[cla1945]

Pistol Free Areas

Individuals licensed to carry a concealed pistol by Michigan or another state are prohibited from carrying a concealed pistol or a portable device that uses electo-muscular disruption technology on the following premises:Please refer to MCL 28.425o for the complete statutory text Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian Public or private day care center, public or private child caring agency, or public or private child placing agency. Sports arena or stadium A tavern where the primary source of income is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass consumed on the premises Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials allow concealed weapons An entertainment facility that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more A hospital A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university A Casino "Premises" does not include the parking areas of the places listed above.

[guito13]

Pistol Free Areas

Individuals licensed to carry a concealed pistol by Michigan or another state are prohibited from carrying a concealed pistol or a portable device that uses electo-muscular disruption technology on the following premises:Please refer to MCL 28.425o for the complete statutory text Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian Public or private day care center, public or private child caring agency, or public or private child placing agency. Sports arena or stadium A tavern where the primary source of income is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass consumed on the premises Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials allow concealed weapons An entertainment facility that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more A hospital A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university A Casino "Premises" does not include the parking areas of the places listed above.

This is true but if you dig deeper, a person with a CPL CAN and HAVE open carried in these areas and its completely legal. Its due to preemption of federal law and such. It gets complicated....

[wolverine]

I saw this child's family on TV stating that he was a good and quiet child and how they couldn't believe that he was being accused of robbing anyone.
If I have to hear this crock of bull from one more family member of a criminal I think I'm going to puke!!
He was going to trial in a month for armed robbery!! Why was he even out anyway???!!!! What if that poor coach had died at the hands of these "good kids"?

Agree. I got nauseated watching the video too.

[Not In MI]

If they acquire a gun illegally, not much can be done after the fact. That doesn't mean there should be no controls though. I could steal a car and have no driver's license. That doesn't mean classes and licenses should be gone.

they why keep f'ing around with legal gun owners and go after illegal gun owners?

[lpg]

So you are telling me that I shouldnt have the right to have a firearm in my house to protect MY children??? I keep my weapons in a safe place and ensure they cant get to them. That being said, I am ok with a parent being held accountable to some extent if their child gets ahold of their gun and uses it illegally.

The idea behind this is to make nearly everyone unable to posess or purchase a firearm. Only single people who lived alone might qualify.

[gazhekwe]

No, the idea is to place responsibility on those who allow the guns to fall into the hands of unauthorized users. Have your gun, store it safely. The day you forget to lock it up and your rebellious teenager gets hold of it in a rage, well, that is on you.

[Zacha341]

Very salient points Gnome. Indeed the long-term weight of having to apply lethal force as was the case here is very serious, and deep.

Everyone should keep in mind what a sad day this is for the 70 yr old assistant ball coach who pulled the trigger. Taking a life, especially one so young, is a life altering experience. He didn't plan these events. He was dealt an unwinnable hand. No right decision, only one less shitty than the other.

He is being exonerated by the police who have ruled the killing justifiable, but in this man's heart he will re-live the events on an endless loop. Think and re-think a series of what-ifs and if-nots. Middle of the day or deep into the night, he will be haunted by decisions he made as the result of decisions made by others.

the guy's life is essentially over. He is scarred beyond fixing. The joy he got from helping out with basketball is done. The congratulations he will get will ring hollow and the slaps on the back will feel like knives.

Killing someone is serious business and it is nothing anyone knows until it is done. I believe most the people who pocket a gun for protection feel it is like a force field that will repel attackers, that just pointing it will require the villains to retreat, it won't because they won't. You should only carry a gun if you are willing to kill someone and then live with sleepless nights that will follow.

[Zacha341]

I hope not. If you have a long arm or hand gun in your home you may have children to defend as well as a spouse. Duh! But keep guns secured is a given, one should do that.

So you are saying i would be denied a gun because I have children in my house since they cant legally own guns?

[Zacha341]

Thank you for that last point! The demonization and canonizing [[pardon the pun) of gun owners are anchor-references of the NRA, of which I am certain most gun owning Detroiter's are not members of.

As I have said before there are liberals out there that are gun owners.

I neglected to first thank you for your service on my last post so please let me do that now, thank you!

I am saying that it behaves and functions like any other semi-automatic rifle with the exception of calliber. If i put some barrel shrouds and pistol grips on my hunting rifles, they would look like an AR.

2 of them are Semi-Automatic and one is a Bolt Action [[I hunt with all 3)

I am actually not a member of the NRA.

[Zacha341]

Yep. When I have the chance to talk with teens I always remind them that their associations can have serious outcomes. Very.

Had the coach been shot and killed, the boy without the gun would likely still have been guilty of felony murder [[participating in a felony in which someone dies, even if one wasn't directly involved in the killing).

[EASTSIDE CAT 67-83]

Everyone should keep in mind what a sad day this is for the 70 yr old assistant ball coach who pulled the trigger. Taking a life, especially one so young, is a life altering experience. He didn't plan these events. He was dealt an winnable hand. No right decision, only one less shitty than the other. He is being exonerated by the police who have ruled the killing justifiable, but in this man's heart he will re-live the events on an endless loop. Think and re-think a series of what-ifs and if-nots. Middle of the day or deep into the night, he will be haunted by decisions he made as the result of decisions made by others.

the guy's life is essentially over. He is scarred beyond fixing. The joy he got from helping out with basketball is done. The congratulations he will get will ring hollow and the slaps on the back will feel like knives.

Killing someone is serious business and it is nothing anyone knows until it is done. I believe most the people who pocket a gun for protection feel it is like a force field that will repel attackers, that just pointing it will require the villains to retreat, it won't because they won't. You should only carry a gun if you are willing to kill someone and then live with sleepless nights that will follow.

Gnome
Your post is probably the most thoughtful and insightful post in this entire thread, I agree that his life is forever changed...wasn't his choice but he acted in a split second to save his own life and the result was a dead perp, but like you said he will replay this incident again and again in his minds eye. When I was in the Navy I used to manage a small arms training program for Aircrew and Force Protection personnel, but the one thing that I believe was missing from the training program was the psychology of killing someone, eyeball to eyeball and squeezing the trigger. To me these guns were just uniform accessories without that vital part of the equation of carrying a gun and the end result of using it.

[KOMPOST]

Everyone should keep in mind what a sad day this is for the 70 yr old assistant ball coach who pulled the trigger. Taking a life, especially one so young, is a life altering experience. He didn't plan these events. He was dealt an unwinnable hand. No right decision, only one less shitty than the other.

He is being exonerated by the police who have ruled the killing justifiable, but in this man's heart he will re-live the events on an endless loop. Think and re-think a series of what-ifs and if-nots. Middle of the day or deep into the night, he will be haunted by decisions he made as the result of decisions made by others.

the guy's life is essentially over. He is scarred beyond fixing. The joy he got from helping out with basketball is done. The congratulations he will get will ring hollow and the slaps on the back will feel like knives.

Killing someone is serious business and it is nothing anyone knows until it is done. I believe most the people who pocket a gun for protection feel it is like a force field that will repel attackers, that just pointing it will require the villains to retreat, it won't because they won't. You should only carry a gun if you are willing to kill someone and then live with sleepless nights that will follow.

Once again, thank you.

[canuck]

@quito, yes, that is it exactly. If you have people in the house who have access to the guns, they should be legal as well. Too many kids have been hurt or killed with their or somebody's parents' guns. Adam Lanza used his mother's guns.

A twelve year old boy "accidentally" shot his 17 yr old brother in the head a coupla weeks ago about a mile away from where I live. His mother was most likely the owner of the loaded gun kept unchecked. The estranged father had a history of domestic violence and owned a lot of guns. Maybe she had this [[loaded)gun for defending against him? Pretty sad story.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/...913/story.html

[guito13]

Thank you for that last point! The demonization and canonizing [[pardon the pun) of gun owners are anchor-references of the NRA, of which I am certain most gun owning Detroiter's are not members of.

As I have said before there are liberals out there that are gun owners.

I probably should say that I do believe the NRA stance of having armed guards and/or teachers in schools. My [[soon to be) wife is a school teacher/darn good shooter/responsible gun owner and she HATES the fact that the only weapon she has to defend her students from a maniac is her own body as a shield.

I know people from all along the spectrum own guns and that is a good thing. People who align mostly one way or the other still will have issues that they do not see eye to eye with on their party.

[guito13]

I hope not. If you have a long arm or hand gun in your home you may have children to defend as well as a spouse. Duh! But keep guns secured is a given, one should do that.

Agreed. My guns are unloaded & locked, ammo kept seperate, and certain guns are kept in a safe. But Ill be damned if I cant have means to protect my family.

[canuck]

Agreed. My guns are unloaded & locked, ammo kept seperate, and certain guns are kept in a safe. But Ill be damned if I cant have means to protect my family.

I dont own guns, am not tempted to, but if I lived in Detroit, I would be thinking long and hard about it. The responsibility is pretty awesome and most gun owners are probably concerned about the danger of owning, securing, handling guns. The first move is probably to learn all that stuff beforehand and a lot of folks on this forum have a military background and have a professional outlook. The scary thing is when teens get hold of guns coupled with the bullshit gun culture promotion in film and video games, the mix is bound to be disastrous.

[guito13]

I dont own guns, am not tempted to, but if I lived in Detroit, I would be thinking long and hard about it. The responsibility is pretty awesome and most gun owners are probably concerned about the danger of owning, securing, handling guns. The first move is probably to learn all that stuff beforehand and a lot of folks on this forum have a military background and have a professional outlook. The scary thing is when teens get hold of guns coupled with the bullshit gun culture promotion in film and video games, the mix is bound to be disastrous.

It is absolutely a huge responsibility. I was raised around guns, I was taken hunting by my dad and grandfather at a young age. I was put into hunters safety courses. I was taught how to handle myself around firearms from a VERY young age. My children at taught the same.

I dont live in Detroit but I work here. I will not say if I carry to/from my job or not but this city IS dangerous. We all want the best for it but bottom line is that you are more likely to be assaulted her than in most suburbs and the residents should arm themselves if they feel like they need to.

[4V4DMD]

Detroit has the highest justifiable homicides in the country [[factually accurate a couple years ago) yet the Prosecutor is still reviewing whether to press charges? http://www.freep.com/article/2013020...d-in-shootings

No mention of the teens' gun in any of the recent articles. Looks like these kids may have bluffed having a gun.

[4V4DMD]

They're saying no gun was found: http://www.examiner.com/article/ques...oting-of-teens

This story is dramatically different. F'ing 15 year olds. Stupid as hell.

I don't think he should be charged as long as the girls can attest to them posturing verbally and physically that they had a gun. Terrible.