CPL Holder Defends Self and Students at DPS High School.

[Motor City Sam]

I'm glad that the 70 year old protected himself, and didn't allow himself to become a victim. The people of Detroit need to use this as an example of how to handle criminals, regardless of age.

Teens need to learn that there are consequences for their actions. This will prove as an example of what would happen if u go down the wrong road.

I may have voted for Obama, but when it comes to gun control, he needs to spend a few days in Detroit. I'm pretty sure that he will change his opinion should he walk around Detroit late at night without a security detail.

I definitely hope that at least some criminals will see this and reconsider their life of crime.

On the Obama front, did I miss something? Has he advocated making it illegal for citizens to carry weapons for personal protection?

[Motor City Sam]

These do happen [[With the exception of the gun show loophole, which I am open to closing)

This already is law.

The general public cannot buy military grade weapons, never could. The "AR" rifles you see are the same as my hunting rifles but they are simply "tricked out" to look cooler but they all function the same. NO difference.

Are you sure about that last part? The AR that a buddy of mine recently bought is very similar to the M-16 I carried in the Army, except for the inability to fire fully automatic.

[gazhekwe]

@quito, under current laws, the seller would not be responsible if they followed current laws. if they did not, then they should be responsible.

My proposal would require background checks to include all persons associated with the buyer who could access the gun, and would hold sellers responsible if they sold guns to households containing people who could not legally own guns. This would of course be subject to investigation and could be defended depending on the responsibility of the gun owner.

[rb336]

I'm a gun owner. I have three semi-automatic pistols [[a 9 mm, an s&w .40 and a .45. I own two shotguns, an over-under and pump [[both Brownings).

I am terrified that people can get a gun permit easier than they can get a driver's license - just witness all the idiots accidentally shot at gun trade shows. I just imagine the scene at the Aurora theater if a bunch of those brain-dead wannabe cowboys had been there. I would bet there would have been far more casualties - and probably not the gunman. No one should be able to buy a deadly, dangerous thing like a gun without training and a thorough background check. And there is no reason to own a 30-round clip for anyone except the military. "but the second amendment is there to protect us from the government!" no, it is not. I defy ANYONE to find a supporting argument for the second that says that. Besides, do you really think you are going to get anywhere with an AK against a tank? or a Blackhawk? or a Predator? grow up.

The only thing I need for home protection [[actually, the only time I ever had to defend my house, I used a replica Viking ax) is my pump action . the sound that thing makes stops anyone but a psycho in their path. I inherited the over under and use it for skeet shooting. It is probably the most accurate shotgun ever made.

[gnome]

Everyone should keep in mind what a sad day this is for the 70 yr old assistant ball coach who pulled the trigger. Taking a life, especially one so young, is a life altering experience. He didn't plan these events. He was dealt an unwinnable hand. No right decision, only one less shitty than the other.

He is being exonerated by the police who have ruled the killing justifiable, but in this man's heart he will re-live the events on an endless loop. Think and re-think a series of what-ifs and if-nots. Middle of the day or deep into the night, he will be haunted by decisions he made as the result of decisions made by others.

the guy's life is essentially over. He is scarred beyond fixing. The joy he got from helping out with basketball is done. The congratulations he will get will ring hollow and the slaps on the back will feel like knives.

Killing someone is serious business and it is nothing anyone knows until it is done. I believe most the people who pocket a gun for protection feel it is like a force field that will repel attackers, that just pointing it will require the villains to retreat, it won't because they won't. You should only carry a gun if you are willing to kill someone and then live with sleepless nights that will follow.

[sturge]

I guess nobody did a background check on these kids or gave them some mandatory training when they sold them the gun ?!?!? Now what Mr. Gun Control?

If they acquire a gun illegally, not much can be done after the fact. That doesn't mean there should be no controls though. I could steal a car and have no driver's license. That doesn't mean classes and licenses should be gone.

[Wesley Mouch]

...
On the Obama front, did I miss something? Has he advocated making it illegal for citizens to carry weapons for personal protection?

I don't think you missed anything. Obama has not advocated for making it illegal for citizens to carry weapons for personal protection.

This issue is of course laden with back agendas. The NRA hates all efforts to rationalize gun laws in any way. They're afraid that its a slippery slope. The anti-gun crowd hates guns and would like to ban all handguns.

Obama has been very careful to not detail just how far he will go in gun control. This allows his supporters to believe he is 100% in favor of gun control. But it frightens guns-rights people because they think he has a secret agenda.

What President Obama hasn't said is... I am OK with private gun ownership in the country, and I will never work to end gun ownership rights .... but I am 100% dedicated to enforcing current laws and closing loopholes like the gun show lunacy.

This leaves those who favor gun ownership rights afraid.

I'm in favor of strengthening enforcement and rules. But not in favor of a ban. If our President isn't in favor of a ban, he should lead and say so. Until he does, expect those who fear a ban to oppose every effort. If he does, he could lead us to a better place with fewer guns -- and our liberty intact. Its possible. Will he? I don't think so. Because I believe that he believe's in a handgun ban.

I do hope we can find middle ground.

[guito13]

Are you sure about that last part? The AR that a buddy of mine recently bought is very similar to the M-16 I carried in the Army, except for the inability to fire fully automatic.

The AR [[and its derivatives) are similar in look in feel to the M-16 but are not military weapons. It is important to note that AR does NOT stand for Assault Rifle [[Like some peopel think) rather it stands for ArmaLite, the original designer of that model. All that being said, just because 2 things look the same do not mean they function the same, the AR-15 is only semi-automatic and never automatic. This means that the "AR" that your friend had functions just like my 30-06 that I deer hunt with, it just is a bit more dressed up.

[guito13]

@quito, under current laws, the seller would not be responsible if they followed current laws. if they did not, then they should be responsible.

My proposal would require background checks to include all persons associated with the buyer who could access the gun, and would hold sellers responsible if they sold guns to households containing people who could not legally own guns. This would of course be subject to investigation and could be defended depending on the responsibility of the gun owner.

So you are saying i would be denied a gun because I have children in my house since they cant legally own guns?

[Motor City Sam]

The AR [[and its derivatives) are similar in look in feel to the M-16 but are not military weapons. It is important to note that AR does NOT stand for Assault Rifle [[Like some peopel think) rather it stands for ArmaLite, the original designer of that model. All that being said, just because 2 things look the same do not mean they function the same, the AR-15 is only semi-automatic and never automatic. This means that the "AR" that your friend had functions just like my 30-06 that I deer hunt with, it just is a bit more dressed up.

So clear this up for me: Are you saying that because the AR does not fire automatic it's just like your 30-06? Is your 30-06 a bolt action rifle or semi?

I have never even heard an NRA member say an AR-15 is just like a deer hunting rifle.

[guito13]

"but the second amendment is there to protect us from the government!" no, it is not. I defy ANYONE to find a supporting argument for the second that says that.

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -Thomas Jefferson

If you read the 46th Federalist Paper, Madison essentially writes that people would naturally fear their government but went on to say that a well armed nation of citizens would easily outnumber a federal army. That is a good thing and is indeed an intended consequence of the constitution in order to ensure the citizens that they could "put down" the government if it came to that.

Cliffnotes on that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._46

[guito13]

So clear this up for me: Are you saying that because the AR does not fire automatic it's just like your 30-06? Is your 30-06 a bolt action rifle or semi?

I have never even heard an NRA member say an AR-15 is just like a deer hunting rifle.

I neglected to first thank you for your service on my last post so please let me do that now, thank you!

I am saying that it behaves and functions like any other semi-automatic rifle with the exception of calliber. If i put some barrel shrouds and pistol grips on my hunting rifles, they would look like an AR.

2 of them are Semi-Automatic and one is a Bolt Action [[I hunt with all 3)

I am actually not a member of the NRA.

[Eber Brock Ward]

The AR [[and its derivatives) are similar in look in feel to the M-16 but are not military weapons. It is important to note that AR does NOT stand for Assault Rifle [[Like some peopel think) rather it stands for ArmaLite, the original designer of that model. All that being said, just because 2 things look the same do not mean they function the same, the AR-15 is only semi-automatic and never automatic. This means that the "AR" that your friend had functions just like my 30-06 that I deer hunt with, it just is a bit more dressed up.

The only difference between the AR-15 and the M-16 is the lack of a fire selector lever. I've sent enough rounds downrange with each, as a civi and in the Army, to know. In fact, the only reason the military calls it the M-16 rather than the AR-15 is because they change it to an "M" designation once it gets selected.

They are quite literally the same weapon, same action, same everything, save for that fire selector lever.

[guito13]

The only difference between the AR-15 and the M-16 is the lack of a fire selector lever. I've sent enough rounds downrange with each, as a civi and in the Army, to know. In fact, the only reason the military calls it the M-16 rather than the AR-15 is because they change it to an "M" designation once it gets selected.

They are quite literally the same weapon, same action, same everything, save for that fire selector lever.

First off, thank you for your service.

Aye, they are mechanically the same but one lacks the ability to fire full automatic [[which is why it is illegal to own as a civillian). Would you dare say that a lot of other non-military semi-automatic long guns out there are very similar internally to the M-16 as well? My point is simply that "AR's" are usually very similar to other "Legal" reifles that you our I can purchase at our local gun shop and banning a few of them that look "Scary" is not really going to help curb any future shootings in this country.

[Motor City Sam]

I neglected to first thank you for your service on my last post so please let me do that now, thank you!

I am saying that it behaves and functions like any other semi-automatic rifle with the exception of calliber. If i put some barrel shrouds and pistol grips on my hunting rifles, they would look like an AR.

2 of them are Semi-Automatic and one is a Bolt Action [[I hunt with all 3)

I am actually not a member of the NRA.

Okay, I see what you are saying now. Thanks for the explanation.

And I appreciate your "thank you" for my service, also.

[Islandman]

Not all M-16s were full auto. The M16A2 I carried for a bit had 3 round burst instead of full auto [[like a lot of HK models do). The M16 A1 and A3 were full auto. The A3s were usually found in the hands of squids.

As stated earlier, there is absolutely no difference between the civilian and military other than the selector lever.

[Motor City Sam]

Not all M-16s were full auto. The M16A2 I carried for a bit had 3 round burst instead of full auto [[like a lot of HK models do). The M16 A1 and A3 were full auto. The A3s were usually found in the hands of squids.

As stated earlier, there is absolutely no difference between the civilian and military other than the selector lever.

Oh, yes. I remember the A2s. They were introduced while I was still in the service. Never fired one, and always wondered if it was better using the three round burst rather than auto fire.

[Islandman]

They came out in the 80s. I was 11B Airborne and that's the one we used. The handguards were round [[vs. the triangular A1). Much easier on the hands; I've had to carry both. a few hours with the A1 and your hands would hate you. 3 round burst is much more stable.

While full auto is great, changing magazines every few seconds isn't, hence the reason special operations requested 30 round mags.

I switched over to Boats in the Navy and was surprised to see full auto again in their platform.

[Motor City Sam]

They came out in the 80s. I was 11B Airborne and that's the one we used. The handguards were round [[vs. the triangular A1). Much easier on the hands; I've had to carry both. a few hours with the A1 and your hands would hate you. 3 round burst is much more stable.

While full auto is great, changing magazines every few seconds isn't, hence the reason special operations requested 30 round mags.

I switched over to Boats in the Navy and was surprised to see full auto again in their platform.

Ah, a former fellow visitor to the red clay of Fort Benning. I never went to airborne school, though. :-)

Salute to you, sir.

Sorry for highjacking the thread, folks.

[Wesley Mouch]

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -Thomas Jefferson

If you read the 46th Federalist Paper, Madison essentially writes that people would naturally fear their government but went on to say that a well armed nation of citizens would easily outnumber a federal army. That is a good thing and is indeed an intended consequence of the constitution in order to ensure the citizens that they could "put down" the government if it came to that.

Cliffnotes on that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._46

Wow.

I'd never read anything that clear. At least one founding father was clear about what the right to bear arms means.

Wow.

[rb336]

thank you for getting Federalist 46 to me. I withdraw my previous comment regarding that, but the "Well regulated" bit still stands.

And the notion of tyranny we have today is absurd in comparison with what the founding fathers experienced

[Johnnny5]

I love the above quote, but they can not be attributed to Thomas Jefferson. At least I can't find any reputable source supporting the fact that he ever said or wrote them.

[Ltdave]

... the coach, who was a CPL holder and police reservist, had a gun on school property. It's unclear if DPS plans to take any action.

it is illegal to be in possession of a firearm ON SCHOOL PROPERTY unless you are licensed by the state to be in possession of a firearm.

PLACES off limits to firearms without a CPL: Sec. 234d [[1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection [[2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following: a) A Bank. b) A church. c) A court. d) A theatre. e) A sports arena. f) A day care center. g) A hospital. h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act.
[[2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection [[1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
b) A peace officer.
c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection [[1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

now it is illegal to carry CONCEALED on school property/in schools BUT, MCL 750.234d allows for OPEN CARRY in Concealed Carry Pistol Free Zones...

DPS cant do anything about it because:

In 1990, the Michigan legislature enacted MCL 123.1102 which provides, in pertinent part: A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

THE MICHIGAN APPEALS COURT CONCLUDED: April 29, 2003 9:10 am. v No. 242237 In sum, we conclude that § 1102 is a statute that specifically imposes a prohibition on local units of government from enacting and enforcing any ordinances or regulations pertaining to the transportation and possession of firearms, and thus preempts any ordinance or regulation of a local unit of government concerning these areas.

Further, we conclude that the specific language of the 2000 amendments to MCL 28.421 et seq., particularly §§ 5c and 5o, which were adopted more than a decade after the enactment of § 1102, do not repeal § 1102 or otherwise reopen this area to local regulation of the carrying of firearms.17 Accordingly, we hold that the Ferndale ordinance is preempted by state law and, consequently, we reverse.



to address the AR-15/M-16 discussion [[as others have done) the AR-15 was designed by Eugene Stoner who worked for the ArmaLite company of Fairchild Aircraft. it was designed as a Semi-Automatic rifle. AR stands for ArmaLite Rifle...

the Air Force was the first to adopt the rifle for issue as the M-15. later purchases were marked M16, while the earlier semi-auto M-15s were converted at the time of sale. the Army was 'forced' to buy into it also by McNamara. but they had a forward bolt assist [[to help if there was a slight jam) and it was called the M-16E1 then M-16A1...

the M-16 is a fully auto [[or burst fire) firearm in that the rifle will continue to fire as long as the trigger is depressed to the rear [[or 3 rounds with one trigger pull)...

M-16s CAN be owned by plain ol' civilians. IF they fill out a BATFE form 4. IF they get their chief Law Enforcement Officer to sign off on the form. IF they send it to the BATFE with a non-refundable [[maybe it IS refundable? was told it wasnt) $200 tax/fee. IF the BATFE and FBI both agree that there is no criminal background on the purchaser and finally IF the purchaser has on average, $13,000...

an AR-15 has the exact same function as a Marlin60 .22lr rifle or a Remington Nylon66. or a Remington 1100 shotgun, M1 Garand, 1911/1911A1 pistol or any of the Glock, SigSaurer, Ruger, Smith-Wesson pistols. every time the trigger is pulled, ONE ROUND IS FIRED...

an M16 [[or any of its MILITARY ISSUE versions) are FULL-AUTO [[more correctly called SELECT-FIRE) in that it can be switched from semi-auto [[ONE ROUND per trigger pull) to [[Full)Auto which will fire as long as the trigger is held back...

all select-fire/full-auto firearms, short barreled shotguns [[less than 18") and short barreled rifles [[less than 16") regardless of semi or full auto function are controlled under the National Firearms Act of 1934. there were further restrictions put on the manufacture of NEW select-fire/full-auto firearms in May 1986 [[Firearm Owners Protection Act)...

all of the talk to ban ARs and "AK" rifles are based on an irrational emotional response to the rifles APPEARANCE...

[rb336]

I love the above quote, but they can not be attributed to Thomas Jefferson. At least I can't find any reputable source supporting the fact that he ever said or wrote them.

monticello.org agrees:

http://www.monticello.org/site/jeffe...arms-quotation

[gazhekwe]

@quito, yes, that is it exactly. If you have people in the house who have access to the guns, they should be legal as well. Too many kids have been hurt or killed with their or somebody's parents' guns. Adam Lanza used his mother's guns.