New Arena could break ground by fall.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

To the extent that Woodward is Detroit's "Main Street", wouldn't it be better to have the development on the Woodward/75 site and further tie downtown into midtown as soon as possible?

[bailey]

Well we don't know whether or not Ilitch has all the land he needs... in the west Foxtown area there are the 5 empty parcels [[near Columbia and Clifford) owned by the Alibri heirs... that have been holding out since they sued to get it back from the Stadium Authority back in the 1990s. And there's another landowner on the north side of W. Adams that owns about 4 or 5 parcels. Then there's the C.C. Bar owners and of course the Film Vault Building owners.

As far as north of the Fisher... isn't there a Cab company that owns a large parcel that wanted something like over $20 million for their land? I won't speculate beyond that...

If any of that is true about the hold out property owners [[and I'm not saying it isn't), then why is any of this being discussed at all? Announcements of a desired "fall" ground breaking, laying out proposed locations, designs...etc would only cause intransigent parties to dig in. "You want to get in here in September and you didn't like my last demand for 30 million for my sliver of property right in the middle of your planned arena? Well, the price just went up $5 million".

I mean if there are still hold outs and parcels needed for the project, then all this talk has just given them reason not to sell until they get exactly what they want. What's Illitch gonna do besides totally capitulate? he has no bargaining position.

[Gorath]

Also, the reason for state ownership... is so that Ilitch won't have to pay property taxes on the Arena... just as he and Ford don't have to pay it on the county owned Comerica Park and Ford Field.

That is what I thought as well. But then the City of Detroit came out and said that Ilitch owes back property taxes on the Joe. And the City of Detroit, not Ilitch, owns the Joe.

[gthomas]

Well we don't know whether or not Ilitch has all the land he needs... in the west Foxtown area there are the 5 empty parcels [[near Columbia and Clifford) owned by the Alibri heirs... that have been holding out since they sued to get it back from the Stadium Authority back in the 1990s. And there's another landowner on the north side of W. Adams that owns about 4 or 5 parcels. Then there's the C.C. Bar owners and of course the Film Vault Building owners.

As far as north of the Fisher... isn't there a Cab company that owns a large parcel that wanted something like over $20 million for their land? I won't speculate beyond that...

As far as Eminent Domain goes... the Aerotropolis proposal around Metro Airport sort of died when the county tried Eminent Domain on their land... and lost in court.

I do NOT think that an Arena or a Stadium counts towards a "public use"... or else Ilitch would have had the city/county/state try that option... instead of him buying all the property in a slealthy manner.

Also, the reason for state ownership... is so that Ilitch won't have to pay property taxes on the Arena... just as he and Ford don't have to pay it on the county owned Comerica Park and Ford Field.

Man, I hope the arena is built behind the Fox Theater. I prefer a continuous street wall from Charlotte and I-75 on Woodward, hoping he will build the residential, office and retail space on this particular site. Don't want the arena to block the view of the Eddystone and Park Ave Hotel, which should be office/Hotel in this development.

[jake4life403]

I THINK THIS REALLY EXPLAINS A LOT REGARDING THE LOCATION!

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...th-Fox-Theatre

[emu steve]

I THINK THIS REALLY EXPLAINS A LOT REGARDING THE LOCATION!

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...th-Fox-Theatre

thought it did, but this thread suggests otherwise.

The best I can say is that it is or will become a tough 'zero sum' game.

As Gistok has suggested before, Ilitch can play the holdouts of one site vs. the holdouts of another site.

The holdout losers gets to hold on to his/her property for probably a long, long time and won't get much for it as it won't see a puck dropped on it.

Every so often one see a photo of someone who has refused to sell and an Atlantic City casino was built around it or a very small house surrounded by two apartment buildings.

[emu steve]

Interestingly one of the 3 sites has changed... it doesn't mention a site near MotorCity Casino... but instead the 3rd site is that triangle of land between Cass and Grand River [[south of I-75). If they did chose that site, it likely would mean that the arena would be standalone on that parcel... with the ancillary development east of Cass... behind the Fox. If they did choose that site, it would be nice if they did a Gem/Century type move of the Moose Lodge... since there is some deed restriction [[IIRC) about tearing that building down.

I'm sure that the Ilitch's have specific preferences for the site that they want... but the holdout landowners will determine which is the final site.

I wonder if Ilitch has all of the parcels within that triangle that he needs?

If so, he can build there and do ancillary development on his other parcels designing around the holdout owners.

I think one important point which is worth remembering, and I think I have this correct:

The city owns much/most of the frontage on Woodward from the Fisher toward Temple. [[not sure where the city's ownership ends).

Between Ilitch and the city I'd assume they have most of what is needed.

[Gistok]

I'm not saying any of us is right or wrong on whether the location and property has been settled. My only question is this... if it has... why are they still talking 3 "POSSIBLE" locations... That's the part that makes me think that yes they may have all the land in a specific location... but they would actually prefer one of the other locations... so they "may" still be playing poker on the land issues... to try to get some holdouts to either sell or possibly swap land.

And as for the 35 acres... that doesn't have to be 35 "contiguous" acres... the arena can be on one set of blocks, and the ancillary buildings could be built [[even Gerrymandered) around that.

But if I was an intransigent landowner that was responsible for Ilitch having to build in a "lesser" choice location... I would not want to see the outcome of what gets built around my "holdout" land.

The Ilitch's have shown [[with the Women's Exchange Building)... that they can be very unforgiving when it comes to such a scenario. With the Women's Exchange Building... which was to have been part of the Stadium land... a "decorative sidewalk" [[yuck!)... the owners went to court and won... only to find that they could NOT develop their land without getting some parking spaces from Ilitch... which was a "when Hell freezes over" scenario. It finally took Red Wing Chris Chelios to get and develop that building for the Ilitch's to be accommodating...

[jake4life403]

Ilitch Consultant Basically Reveals Desired Arena Site

http://detroit.curbed.com/archives/2...arena-site.php

[schulzte]

The footprint of a typical hockey arena is about 5 acres. Obviously, some parking area would go with it too, but 35 acres is a huge chunk of ground for a hockey arena development. These must be substantial development plans to go with the arena.

[Gistok]

Ilitch Consultant Basically Reveals Desired Arena Site


http://detroit.curbed.com/archives/2...arena-site.php

35 acres is available in more than one spot... not convinced.... like I said... it doesn't "have" to be contiguous...

[emu steve]

35 acres is available in more than one spot... not convinced.... like I said... it doesn't "have" to be contiguous...

Anyone who is good at ballparking [[wrong term when discussing a hockey arena. Lol) how may acres Ilitch would control [[assuming no holdout ownders) for the area behind the Fox, the Cass/Grand River/Fisher triangle, and the very large area bounded by Woodward/Temple/Fisher/Cass?

I believe an acre is approximately the size of a football field.

Would a good guess that the north of Fisher area alone be in the area of say 40 - 50 acres????? [[esp. if Ilitch has more land going toward Charlotte).

Would anyone guess that the total area of what I mentioned above might be in the 60 - 75 acres range?

Bottom line: Articles have mentioned 35 acres to be developed.

For us 35 acres is what percentage of the land we are thinking when we think Ilitch and his land parcels. Maybe 50% ??????????????

[Gistok]

For us 35 acres is what percentage of the land we are thinking when we think Ilitch and his land parcels. Maybe 50% ??????????????

Probably more like 35%... it's hard to determine... since we don't know if some of the parcels are under an alias Ilitch Holdings name. The forumer VERIFIABLE had listed over 100 parcels under the Ilitch Holdings name and other names linked to Ilitch Holdings. His map of all the properties [[of about 2-3 years ago)... is no longer available.

[gvidas]

The new Why Don't We Own This? has a really elegant feature [[available for $25/year) that lets you draw a shape over the streets of Detroit, and then gives you detailed ownership and area information for that block of land.

The chunk between Cass/Woodward, Temple/Fisher is about 25 acres.

[DetroitPlanner]

Is it true its going to be named Atanas Arena?

[emu steve]

The new Why Don't We Own This? has a really elegant feature [[available for $25/year) that lets you draw a shape over the streets of Detroit, and then gives you detailed ownership and area information for that block of land.

The chunk between Cass/Woodward, Temple/Fisher is about 25 acres.

BTW, 25 acres sounds much better than my estimate. I re-eyeballed the map that the Detroit News has and think it is 9 football fields wide from the Fisher to Temple and 3 football fields long from Woodward to Cass.

So we are saying that Iltich wants to come up with 35 acres for development out of 3 parcels composed of 25 acres in the North of Fisher site and the two sites we have been discussing behind the Fox.

I'm wonder if the 3 sites COMBINED might not be much more 45 or 50 acres top.

In other words, Ilitch seems to have plans for most of the acreage in those 3 sites.

Does my math make sense?????

[esp1986]

There is this possibility too...

The idea had been floated of capping I-75 surrounding Woodward. It is entirely possible that there could be a parking deck put up behind the Fox as part of the project.

[Gistok]

Is it true its going to be named Atanas Arena?

DetroitPlanner, I just checked his Facebook page, and he's posted as late as October. Unless his cancer is no longer in remission and it will prove fatal, I don't see that happening. His FB page does show a head covering... so it may have come back. Naming rights for an arena is a very lucrative part of arena financing [[as Comerica Park and Ford Field will attest to). It could generate $60+ million over many years... and help retire the bonds/loans for the facility. But if Atanis is very ill, then you could be correct in your comment.

[Gistok]

Forumer VERIFIABLE had done a LOT of homework on the Ilitch property pruchases... but he's gotten away from the Ilitch Holdings downtown property research, and is focusing on the gaming part of the Ilitch Empire.

Here's one of his more informative maps.... which focuses on the west Foxtown site [[which was unfortunately last updated in 2008) and shows just how much of that area he purchased [[but doesn't show additional property since 2008)... unfortunately the pinpoints on this map show more than just Ilitch property... they also list the other owners....

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid...6b6d28a2&msa=0

His Midtown map is also woefully out of date... [[last updated 2007) and just begins to show his property acquisition in that location....

http://www.bing.com/maps/default.asp...!592&encType=1