Would Detroit benefit from my crazy right-wing pipe dream?

[jt1]

What specifically is incorrect?

The Wall Street Journal seems to agree 100% . They give the exact same income ranges as I gave- 250k for single filer and 300k for dual filing. Above that, deduction is 0.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...195921128.html

Where do you see that it is 0. It is phased down but the phase down part is not huge and is certainly not 0. Maybe I'm reading it wrong but I'd like you to cite the exact quote that states that or better yet, show me the actual figures.

[Bham1982]

Where do you see that it is 0. It is phased down but the phase down part is not huge and is certainly not 0. Maybe I'm reading it wrong but I'd like you to cite the exact quote that states that or better yet, show me the actual figures.

I think it phases down far lower that 250k/300k, because I make nowhere near that and can't fully itemize the deduction. I had always heard you can't take the deduction north of 250k/300k [[at least under the new tax law).

Here's the quote from WSJ-
But provisions that reduce the value of personal exemptions as well as most itemized deductions, including those for mortgage interest and state income-tax payments, will affect about twice as many people since they carry a lower income threshold—$250,000 for singles and $300,000 for married couples.

[jt1]

I think it phases down far lower that 250k/300k, because I make nowhere near that and can't fully itemize the deduction. I had always heard you can't take the deduction north of 250k/300k [[at least under the new tax law).

Here's the quote from WSJ-
But provisions that reduce the value of personal exemptions as well as most itemized deductions, including those for mortgage interest and state income-tax payments, will affect about twice as many people since they carry a lower income threshold—$250,000 for singles and $300,000 for married couples.

The threshold for maximum deductions and phasing out begins at those levels but it does not go to 0.

[Hermod]

Completely incorrect.

Not "completely incorrect" but not perfectly accurate either. At a certain income level, the itemized deductions [[to include state and local taxes and mortgage interest) begin to phase out and when you get to a certain level, they disappear completely. It is incorrect to say that they are gone at $250,000.

[Hermod]

The threshold for maximum deductions and phasing out begins at those levels but it does not go to 0.

Depending on your income, you can lose up to 80% of your itemized deductions and 100% of your personal exemptions.

[GUSHI]

growing up in hamtramck, and being 1st generation of Albanian decent in hamtramck was awesome, going to festivals, going to friends/cuzions house, most with in walking distance, we moved out on the 90s still pleanty of Albanians down there, we just skipped sterling height for macomb twp, lol now in shelby twp,

Yep. My stepdad is Albanian and grew up in Hamtramck. Though he had a fun childhood, he was there during what was arguably Hamtramck's lowest point [[the 1980s). His mother would make him stay indoors a lot, and he got into a few dicey situations on his way back from school.

Eventually, he and his family moved out to Sterling Heights and turned their Hamtramck residence into a rental. He now lives in Macomb Township, and so do many of his relatives.

[/COLOR]

[GUSHI]

You are correct, most started off in ham town, late 60s saw Albanians from montenergro, macodenians from yugo, all the way to e the early 90s then there was a 2nd wave of Albanians form Albania, follow by Bosnians,

Highland Park is a bombed-out warzone while Hamtramck is shabby but cheap and livable. And there's comfort in having your fellow countrymen in proximity.

But keep in mind that the immigrants in Hamtown are generally just passing through. As soon as they get a few dollars in savings, they're off to the burbs like everyone else.

You wouldn't believe how many former Yugoslavians [[Albanians, Bosnians, etc.) live in Sterling Heights & Shelby Township. A huge chunk of them started out in Hamtramck.

[nain rouge]

Not "completely incorrect" but not perfectly accurate either. At a certain income level, the itemized deductions [[to include state and local taxes and mortgage interest) begin to phase out and when you get to a certain level, they disappear completely. It is incorrect to say that they are gone at $250,000.

Not just that, but we'll have to see if the changes stick. Remember - this just happened. How many more months until the next fiscal cliff, again?

But I'm happy that it's a step in the right direction.

And I wouldn't call that cohort of people "rich", even if they are comfortable. In many parts of the country, a family of four making something in that range is pretty middle class.

Really, so a family pulling in a quarter of a million is just "middle class"? By what twisted definition? The average median family income in the U.S. is $50,000. Maybe $250,000 is middle class by Birmingham standards, but I think most the rest of the country would disagree.

[Shollin]

This is what I don't understand. A wealthy family can buy a home and get the same mortgage interest deduction in Palmer Woods, Rosedale Park, Indian Village, Boston-Edison, or East English Village, but somehow you can twist this into a subsidy for the suburbs, leaving poor old Detroit out in the cold.

[nain rouge]

Also, historically, it really has been the wealthy that have benefited the most from the mortgage-interest deduction. From the New York Times in October, 2012:

To begin with, most taxpayers do not benefit from the deduction at all. This is because they do not itemize deductions on their federal income tax returns. According to Joseph Rosenberg, a research associate at the Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center, only about 30 percent of taxpayers itemize, rather than take the standard deduction. And the majority of these itemizers are upper-middle and upper-income households.

Within that privileged category, the people who tend to derive the greatest dollar benefit from the mortgage interest deduction are households earning $100,000 to $500,000 a year.

“About two-thirds of the total benefit go to that group in the 80th through the 99th income percentiles,” Mr. Rosenberg said.

[nain rouge]

A wealthy family can buy a home and get the same mortgage interest deduction in Palmer Woods, Rosedale Park, Indian Village, Boston-Edison, or East English Village, but somehow you can twist this into a subsidy for the suburbs, leaving poor old Detroit out in the cold.

To be honest, those neighborhoods aren't very urban at all. Some, I would say, are practically 100% suburban in design. Just because Detroit managed to capture those developments doesn't make them magically urban.

[Shollin]

To be honest, those neighborhoods aren't very urban at all. Some, I would say, are practically 100% suburban in design. Just because Detroit managed to capture those developments doesn't make them magically urban.

But it is Detroit is it not? I thought these subsidies didn't benefit Detroit? Even in dense urban cores, you can still right off the interest on your new condo.

[nain rouge]

Ok, sure, it benefits rich people everywhere. But obviously, we know where most rich people live and build new dwellings, and it ain't Detroit.

[Shollin]

Ok, sure, it benefits rich people everywhere. But obviously, we know where most rich people live and build new dwellings, and it ain't Detroit.

But it's not the interest deduction that cause them to buy in the suburbs vs Detroit.

[p69rrh51]

To be honest, those neighborhoods aren't very urban at all. Some, I would say, are practically 100% suburban in design. Just because Detroit managed to capture those developments doesn't make them magically urban.

Indian Village with its grid pattern and close spacing has an urban feel. Boston-Edison is mostly the same as IV, although the homes on the north side of Boston Boulevard between Woodward and Hamilton are very suburban in the size and scale of the lots. EEV is probably the most urban with its grid pattern streets and close spacing of the homes. N. Rosedale is very suburban in its design while S. Rosedale is a mix. Palmer Woods is very suburban even though the area was annexed by the CoD just before the neighborhood was developed, but then most of the city outside of Grand Boulevard is to some degree similar to all the above mentioned neighborhoods. All the areas above do have equivalents in the suburbs and are not exceptionally dense. Even inside GB many of the areas resemble something similar to the above neighborhoods. So except for a small number of areas there are few very dense neighborhoods in the city what has me perplexed about your harping about density when most of the city hardly resembles the close tight knit/dense neighborhoods in other large cities.

[nain rouge]

What confuses is me is that you don't even seem to care for urbanity/are a great defender of the suburbs. Which makes me wonder what your interests are here.

[Shollin]

I'm interested in Detroit but I'm tired of hearing these ridiculous excuses for Detroit's demise and how the suburbs somehow get some inordinate amount of subsidies. It makes me wonder why I was paying 4000 a year in property taxes if everything was being subsidized by someone else.

[p69rrh51]

What confuses is me is that you don't even seem to care for urbanity/are a great defender of the suburbs. Which makes me wonder what your interests are here.

I did the "urban" thing 30 years ago. I live in a suburb that gives me the feeling of all the above mentioned neighborhoods with police that are 2 minutes away, garbage that is collected in a timely manor[[in fact Bob my sanitation guy drives his vehicle up my driveway into the backyard to empty the trash cans), a water system that works, schools that among the best in the country, parks that are the envy of the metro area, but I still can be downtown in less than 20 minutes taking E. Jefferson.

[jt1]

garbage that is collected in a timely manor[[in fact Bob my sanitation guy drives his vehicle up my driveway into the backyard to empty the trash cans), a water system that works

Two things:

1. Garbage collection in the city is damn good. People need to stop using this bs point when there are so many others that could be used.
2. There is very little system between your water and DWSD when it comes to price, quality, etc. Is it waster supply or WWT that GP supplies because they still get a major service from DWSD.

[p69rrh51]

Two things:

1. Garbage collection in the city is damn good. People need to stop using this bs point when there are so many others that could be used.
2. There is very little system between your water and DWSD when it comes to price, quality, etc. Is it waster supply or WWT that GP supplies because they still get a major service from DWSD.

Actually Grosse Pointe Farms and the City of Grosse Pointe Pump their own water and its quite a bit less than water from DWSD. As for garbage I drive the equivalent name street to mine in Detroit almost everyday and pickup is hit and miss and I never have to drag a garbage can to the curb.

[jt1]

Actually Grosse Pointe Farms and the City of Grosse Pointe Pump their own water and its quite a bit less than water from DWSD. As for garbage I drive the equivalent name street to mine in Detroit almost everyday and pickup is hit and miss and I never have to drag a garbage can to the curb.

1. Regarding water, yes they pump it but DWSD treats the waste water. I'd be curious to see a comparison in price as I doubt it is that much different [[but may be wrong)
2. Regarding garbage: Is the pick up hit or miss or is it the service or the people taking the garbage to the curb as pretty much everyone I know if the city is happy with garbage pick-up. As a side note, it appears GP is debating whether or not they will pick up beyond the curb so we may need to check back with you shortly on that one.

[p69rrh51]

1. Regarding water, yes they pump it but DWSD treats the waste water. I'd be curious to see a comparison in price as I doubt it is that much different [[but may be wrong)
2. Regarding garbage: Is the pick up hit or miss or is it the service or the people taking the garbage to the curb as pretty much everyone I know if the city is happy with garbage pick-up. As a side note, it appears GP is debating whether or not they will pick up beyond the curb so we may need to check back with you shortly on that one.

Waste water is probably the same as the rest of metro Detroit.
Its hit or miss pickup I have to avoid cans a couple days in a row at least once a month. They have not sent any word that they will stop beyond the curb. I have a feeling if they do the crying will be quite loud. What is the extra cost you have to pay for garbage collection now?

[markd]

40% of Americans don't pay federal income taxes. A majority of Detroiter's don't pay income taxes. These non tax paying citizens of Detroit also live in section 8 housing subsidized by the federal government. You're going to sit there and whine about people in the suburbs who do pay taxes, who bought there homes and pay property tax, and get a little bit back on their mortgage interest? The lengths people go to to blame the suburbs for Detroit's issues.

I'm not whining. I think the problem is that there is a mortgage tax deduction and Section 8 subsidies. Most of these government policies are terribly thought out and even worse in their implementation. But the cost of the two are much different and that's what you seem to keep ignoring.

[mwilbert]

The mortgage deduction costs vastly more than Section 8. But it doesn't affect homeowners equally.

First, you can only get it if you have a mortgage, so it privileges housing that you can get a big loan against [[new construction in an exurb) vs older housing in a declining or soon-to-be-declining neighborhood.

Second, it is more valuable to higher-income people, both because you can only get the deduction if you itemize, and you are more likely to itemize deductions if you have more income, and because the deduction is worth more to people who pay a higher tax rate.

Generally the effect is to subsidize new construction [[for obvious reasons usually in suburbs) vs existing construction, although it also subsidizes places with unusually high housing values and high-income residents, which includes some central cities.

[Goose]

The mortgage deduction costs vastly more than Section 8. But it doesn't affect homeowners equally.

costs more? exactly how much does it "cost"??

there you go again confusing letting people keep the product of their labor with "cost"

a tax deduction, a tax rebate, a tax refund is NOT a cost to the goverment.... its money they aren't getting but stop trying to equate this to an EXPENSE.... this is a tactic of goverment and the left in particular to redefine terms to fit their agenda....