Would Detroit benefit from my crazy right-wing pipe dream?

[nain rouge]

Since Cobo is a regional asset, lets move it to Novi and see how quickly Detroit bitches and moans about that.

Detroit is a good location because it is centrally located within the metro area, and the most density is still found in and around Detroit. They tried moving the Lions and Pistons out to the suburbs. The Lions came back and there are rumblings that the Pistons will eventually, too.

[Detroitnerd]

You don't know how the Gateway project benefits Detroit? Really? The whole project was designed to re-route truck traffic off residential Detroit streets.

That is a net benefit to southwest Detroit, if it happens. They're still waiting, and there's a certain suburban billionaire holding that process up, but ... point taken. Anyway, shouldn't something like a freeway be designed in such a way where it has as little impact on its surroundings as possible? In this case, consider this not an upgrade benefitting Detroiters so much as an upgrade to the way it should be.

Since Cobo is a regional asset, lets move it to Novi and see how quickly Detroit bitches and moans about that.

I think if you did such a thing you'd end up confusing a lot of the very conventioneers who use Cobo. For reasons of prestige, most metros locate their convention center in their downtown. I think moving it out to Novi would broadcast the message to the world that we don't value our downtown. Even folks like L. Brooks Patterson are happy with administering Cobo, so I'd say the powers that be are happy with this arrangement. Personally, I see Cobo as a white elephant and would be glad to be rid of it.

You act like people at 32 and Van Dyke pay no taxes. One person at 32 and Van Dyke probably pays more than an entire block at 7 Mile and Van Dyke.

No. Let me say this very clearly. I act like people at 32 and Van Dyke get much more in gold-plated freeways, roads, sewers and infrastructure than they pay for with their taxes. And this arrangement is destructive and unsustainable.

[Wesley Mouch]

Wait, so people can't deduct their mortgage interest in Detroit? ...

This debate is most silly. Broad statistics hand-chosen to support points of view.

But as to the mortgage interest deduction -- it is a transfer to the suburbs. The mortgage interest deduction benefits those who spend more on their homes. That's obvious, right? It also benefits those who are already itemizing their deductions. If your mortage interest paid is less than $6,000 or so, you might as well take the standard deduction. So therefore the deduction is mostly of benefit to those who have more expensive homes.

Thus, the burbs benefit more than the city [[in most cases).

This deduction should be stopped immediately. We don't need to subsidize mortgages. It might have been a good idea right after WWII to drive home construction, but in more recent times it mostly contributed to increased housing costs -- and then reduced affordability -- and a transfer of wealth to the older generation. All kinds of unintended and unneeded side effect.

Repeal this right after we repeal the social security cap.

[Shollin]

Where are these gold plated roads? In what way is Van Dyke different in Shelby township than Detroit? Man if you think the roads are gold plated, you need to drive by workplace in Troy.

[nain rouge]

When will you guys get it? Density and the costs of ever-expanding infrastructure don't matter because Detroit is getting the Gateway Project. It renders all other arguments moot.

[Detroitnerd]

Where are these gold plated roads? In what way is Van Dyke different in Shelby township than Detroit? Man if you think the roads are gold plated, you need to drive by workplace in Troy.

Well, for example, take a look at the recent expansion of Hall Road. MDOT spent $50 million in federal stimulus funds to expand Hall Road between Crooks and Ryan roads from four to six lanes, rebuilding a half-dozen or so bridges and overpasses, all while MDOT can't even pay the bill for simple road maintenance of the stuff it's already built in Michigan. And that, my friend, explains how residents in the vicinity of Hall Road enjoy generous subsidies that even Troy doesn't get.

It seems like our plan is to just continue to lay down concrete and shower the exurbs with money, even though we have a massive oversupply of and decreasing demand for this way of life. It seems as if the powers that be are determined to prop up a very dated, obsolete version of prosperity that doesn't make economic sense anymore.

[Detroitnerd]

When will you guys get it? Density and the costs of ever-expanding infrastructure don't matter because Detroit is getting the Gateway Project. It renders all other arguments moot.

Haha. I know, it's frustrating, isn't it?

[Shollin]

When will you guys get it? Density and the costs of ever-expanding infrastructure don't matter because Detroit is getting the Gateway Project. It renders all other arguments moot.

Detroit is about as dense as Warren. I know, I know the evil freeways killed it.

[Shollin]

Well, for example, take a look at the recent expansion of Hall Road. MDOT spent $50 million in federal stimulus funds to expand Hall Road between Crooks and Ryan roads from four to six lanes, rebuilding a half-dozen or so bridges and overpasses, all while MDOT can't even pay the bill for simple road maintenance of the stuff it's already built in Michigan. And that, my friend, explains how residents in the vicinity of Hall Road enjoy generous subsidies that even Troy doesn't get.

It seems like our plan is to just continue to lay down concrete and shower the exurbs with money, even though we have a massive oversupply of and decreasing demand for this way of life. It seems as if the powers that be are determined to prop up a very dated, obsolete version of prosperity that doesn't make economic sense anymore.

And federal stimulus funds are going to pay for an M-1 rail and the Rosa Parks transit center, not too mention the complete rebuild of the Davison but I guess that was that evil suburb of Highland Park.

[ArmDetroit]

If you'll excuse me, I'm going to take a moment to feed the troll.

According to this Forbes article from January last year, the Sustainable Communities Initiative is a federal program spearheaded by Obama which has been said to promote "regional equality" taking suburban tax money and redistributing it to their nearby major cities.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin...or-the-cities/

Honestly I have no idea what the Sustainable Communities Initiative is, but I figured if there was some place to leave that article it was here and now. While the Forbes article makes it sound like some evil scheme, upon further research it sounds like it might actually be a good idea but if someone can shed some more light on it, I would appreciate it.

[Detroitnerd]

Detroit is about as dense as Warren. I know, I know the evil freeways killed it.

Well, technically, Warren is about 3,900 persons per square mile. Detroit's is 5,144 persons per square mile.

Have you seen Warren lately? Our strategy of running away from "city problems" and subsidizing building on the edge is enlarging the problem, it seems.

[nain rouge]

Detroit is about as dense as Warren. I know, I know the evil freeways killed it.

Fair point, but I think most would agree that we have a better chance of achieving high densities again in Detroit than we do in Warren. Also, it's a matter of logistics - a denser, more vibrant Detroit should in turn encourage more density in all of the inner ring suburbs.

[Detroitnerd]

And federal stimulus funds are going to pay for an M-1 rail and the Rosa Parks transit center, not too mention the complete rebuild of the Davison but I guess that was that evil suburb of Highland Park.

First of all, don't count your rail-miles until they hatch.

Second of all, you're looking for an equivalency that doesn't exist. Detroit exists on a shoestring, starved of the subsidies cities get in other industrialized countries. If you were to ask the suburban governments to live within the means of their tax bases, the same thing would happen to them that has happened to Detroit for decades.

[Detroitnerd]

If you'll excuse me, I'm going to take a moment to feed the troll.

According to this Forbes article from January last year, the Sustainable Communities Initiative is a federal program spearheaded by Obama which has been said to promote "regional equality" taking suburban tax money and redistributing it to their nearby major cities.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin...or-the-cities/

Honestly I have no idea what the Sustainable Communities Initiative is, but I figured if there was some place to leave that article it was here and now. While the Forbes article makes it sound like some evil scheme, upon further research it sounds like it might actually be a good idea but if someone can shed some more light on it, I would appreciate it.

I haven't heard anything like that. I have heard of regional taxes on new development. That's a good sell because suburbs still retain their existing tax base, but anything that's built new in the periphery pays taxes to a regional authority that encourages smart growth, regional retrenchment, mass transit, green belts, etc. In other words, you take the damaging expensive thing [[exurban development, aka sprawl) and you tax it and use the proceeds to fight for the constructive cheap thing [[urban, dense living). Not sure how it has taken on. Always a good time to propose it when nothing's being built out there anyway.

[Shollin]

Fair point, but I think most would agree that we have a better chance of achieving high densities again in Detroit than we do in Warren. Also, it's a matter of logistics - a denser, more vibrant Detroit should in turn encourage more density in all of the inner ring suburbs.

Sure but I don't see where Warren is getting anymore subsidies than Detroit. This talk about density means nothing when the residents are in poverty and don't pay taxes. The suburbs pay more in taxes.

[Shollin]

Seeing as how Hamtramck is twice as dense as Detroit, shouldn't we be building this rail line down Joseph Campau?

[Detroitnerd]

Seeing as how Hamtramck is twice as dense as Detroit, shouldn't we be building this rail line down Joseph Campau?

Fine by me. That's the old Baker Streetcar Line. It would go a long way to reinvigorating that strip, and would help expand on an area that has been a little success story. We're starting to see some spinoff from Hamtramck to the north, so it would capitalize on that for sure.

What we need in our metro is a vibrant, dense city; denser suburbs with multiple modes linking to the city; and a greenbelt with productive farms and dairies. Unfortunately, thanks to provincialism, home rule and federal subsidies, we have the exact opposite. And we'll be paying the cost as a region for decades to come.

[ArmDetroit]

I haven't heard anything like that. I have heard of regional taxes on new development. That's a good sell because suburbs still retain their existing tax base, but anything that's built new in the periphery pays taxes to a regional authority that encourages smart growth, regional retrenchment, mass transit, green belts, etc. In other words, you take the damaging expensive thing [[exurban development, aka sprawl) and you tax it and use the proceeds to fight for the constructive cheap thing [[urban, dense living). Not sure how it has taken on. Always a good time to propose it when nothing's being built out there anyway.

Thank you, that's basically what I got out of it, but the writer of that article had a different take on it as I'm sure others would as well, hence "feeding the troll"

On another note, if Detroiters and suburbanites can't play nice, this region will never make great progress.

[nain rouge]

I do find Hamtramck to be unfairly neglected. It's a hidden gem, but it doesn't get nearly as much love from urban lovers around here as you'd hope. There's this attitude that it's OK for immigrants, but otherwise unimpressive. I think it's one of our more interesting cultural areas and is home to a very unheralded but important artistic scene.

[Shollin]

I do find Hamtramck to be unfairly neglected. It's a hidden gem, but it doesn't get nearly as much love from urban lovers around here as you'd hope. There's this attitude that it's OK for immigrants, but otherwise unimpressive. I think it's one of our more interesting cultural areas and is home to a very unheralded but important artistic scene.

I've always been fascinated with Hamtramck. It has everything these urban hipsters want, yet seems so ignored. I'm also curious how Hamtramck held up so much better than Detroit or Highland Park.

[nain rouge]

Hamtramck does have its share of urban hipsters, but it's more underground. I find they're grittier than their brothers and sisters in Midtown, whom tend to have more of a moneyed vibe.

[GUSHI]

It's was a polish enclave, followed by Albanians,and Yugoslavians in the late 60s ,70s, and 80,s early 90s followed by Yemans and Bangladesh, and Bosnians in 90s and 2000, so it held up due to immigrants,

I've always been fascinated with Hamtramck. It has everything these urban hipsters want, yet seems so ignored. I'm also curious how Hamtramck held up so much better than Detroit or Highland Park.

[GUSHI]

Shyt I can still picture the old Polish lady sweeping her front porch every day, Immigrants came here w nothing and made something were what was left in Detroit was to busy bitching about the white man, keeping them down, and working the system.

[Shollin]

But why do immigrants chose Hamtramck over Detroit or Highland Park? Why wasn't Hamtramck as effected by the crack epidemic like Detroit and Highland Park?

[GUSHI]

They seem to follow each other, and immigrants seem to stick together, I grew up across from the gm pole town plant, a lot of immigrants yeman and albanian watch out for each other, got stuff on credit at the local store, this was in the 90s and the outskirts of Hamtown,