Bargain mansions in Palmer Woods

**renf** · January-18-13, 01:51 PM

Today's WSJ has a balanced and interesting essay about
the reasonable prices of elegant homes in Palmer Woods.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000..._ITP_mansion_1

**swingline** · January-18-13, 05:51 PM

An interesting article for sure. No usual Detroit slams and no ruin porn visuals either.

Palmer Woods is indeed a bargain of sorts. But there are legitimate market forces which recognize the unique ownership costs in that neighborhood and tend to suppress the prices. Even with the NEZ [[lite) designation, the taxes on turn-key properties will usually exceed $1200/mo. The energy costs per sq/ft of 90 year old mansions is probably 4x that of a similar sized McMansion in Northville. Insurance will be at least 2x. Bottom line: it may not be the bargain suggested by purchase prices. It's still a great neighborhood though. If I was in the market, I'd be looking there.

**Richard** · January-18-13, 11:23 PM

I agree she did a good job on the write up which is kinda surprising because all of her other work is auto related.

But they say bargain mansions then it says there are none available other then the one.

What is considered a mansion? They seem to call a 4000 sqft house a mansion to me anything over 10,000 sqft would be considered a mansion.

**Hermod** · January-19-13, 06:21 AM

Originally Posted by Richard

What is considered a mansion? They seem to call a 4000 sqft house a mansion to me anything over 10,000 sqft would be considered a mansion.

"Mansion" = bigger house than I can afford lived in by some undeserving plutocrat who stole his money from me.

**Scott** · January-19-13, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by Richard

I agree she did a good job on the write up which is kinda surprising because all of her other work is auto related.

But they say bargain mansions then it says there are none available other then the one.

What is considered a mansion? They seem to call a 4000 sqft house a mansion to me anything over 10,000 sqft would be considered a mansion.

Mansions technically start at 8000 sqft according to one source I saw.

**Zacha341** · January-19-13, 07:23 AM

A bargain yes - if one can afford to heat them! It's a struggle to heat a home in the 1000 - 1400 square foot range. These expansive homes have a huge energy consumption rate/ cost, even when you close off areas not in use.

**DetroitPlanner** · January-19-13, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

A bargain yes - if one can afford to heat them! It's a struggle to heat a home in the 1000 - 1400 square foot range. These expansive homes have a huge energy consumption rate/ cost, even when you close off areas not in use.

Exactly! Its not a bargain when you consider property taxes, utlities, the fact that a new roof will cost you 4-5 times the amount of a more modest home, heck even your paint costs are higher as it takes a lot more paint to paint a 10k home than a 1.2k one.

**mwilbert** · January-19-13, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Exactly! Its not a bargain when you consider property taxes, utlities, the fact that a new roof will cost you 4-5 times the amount of a more modest home, heck even your paint costs are higher as it takes a lot more paint to paint a 10k home than a 1.2k one.

I don't think the idea is that it is inexpensive housing. I think the idea is that it is inexpensive for big, interesting housing. If you have to ask how much it costs to paint, you can't afford it.

**DetroitPlanner** · January-19-13, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

I don't think the idea is that it is inexpensive housing. I think the idea is that it is inexpensive for big, interesting housing. If you have to ask how much it costs to paint, you can't afford it.

The point is, anyone who thinks a big house is a bargain is kidding themselves.

**D_Town** · January-19-13, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

The point is, anyone who thinks a big house is a bargain is kidding themselves.

It is a bargain if you are in the market for a 4,000+ sq ft home that you are normally expecting to pay 600K+ for. You can get between a 9,000 - 10,000 sq ft home in Detroit for under 700K compared to paying around 2 million + for the same size in Grosse Pointe or Bloomfield.

**mwilbert** · January-19-13, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

The point is, anyone who thinks a big house is a bargain is kidding themselves.

This is only true if you things that cost a lot can't be bargains. I don't think that is true.

**Smirnoff** · January-19-13, 10:51 AM

Better bargains in Delray.....

Ever see the movie: The Money Pit?

From the moment Walter and Anna take possession of the house, it quickly begins to fall apart. The entire front door frame rips out of the wall, the main staircase collapses, the plumbing is found to be full of gunk, the electrical system catches fire, the bathtub crashes through the floor, the chimney collapses and a raccoon has invaded the.....

**DetroitPlanner** · January-19-13, 12:57 PM

Everything in life is a trade off. If you want to live in a 10k sq ft home, and you don't have the money to buy one elsewhere then yeah it may seem like a bargain. However, a 10k home in Palmer Woods will come with lots of other costs. I did not even mention the cost of sending your kids to private schools, insuring your car [[after all you can't live in a mansion and drive a 10 year old Taurus) and home, taxes and maintaining the home. It will probably cost you more on a yearly basis than it would cost you in a place like Bloomfield Hills. Good luck saving for retirement with those kind of costs that you voluntarily took on.

**p69rrh51** · January-19-13, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Everything in life is a trade off. If you want to live in a 10k sq ft home, and you don't have the money to buy one elsewhere then yeah it may seem like a bargain. However, a 10k home in Palmer Woods will come with lots of other costs. I did not even mention the cost of sending your kids to private schools, insuring your car [[after all you can't live in a mansion and drive a 10 year old Taurus) and home, taxes and maintaining the home. It will probably cost you more on a yearly basis than it would cost you in a place like Bloomfield Hills. Good luck saving for retirement with those kind of costs that you voluntarily took on.

The assumption is the person/couple/family purchasing the home has the means to afford such a large residence. From another angle using the Van Dusen mansion as an example, and I think what the author was trying to convey is what you get for your money. At just under 700k the home is a bargain in that to build the home to similar specs would cost 10-15 million dollars. As for the size of any home its up to you and your good sense to purchase the right sized home.

**davewindsor** · January-22-13, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by p69rrh51

The assumption is the person/couple/family purchasing the home has the means to afford such a large residence. From another angle using the Van Dusen mansion as an example, and I think what the author was trying to convey is what you get for your money. At just under 700k the home is a bargain in that to build the home to similar specs would cost 10-15 million dollars. As for the size of any home its up to you and your good sense to purchase the right sized home.

I completely disagree. If I'm looking for a bargain, I'll manage the construction myself and build new. Ya, if you use private government contractors that have a history of building public buildings, sure it may end up costing $10m-$15m. If I subbed the work myself and shopped around for building materials including recycled materials, I could get it built for under $700K with all the permits. Some contractors charge 10X what they are worth.

It's not a bargain because the kind of person who would buy a bargain could also build it himself if he couldn't find a bargain. Thus, it's not a bargain to the bargain hunter. It's only a bargain to a person who lives a lifestyle of overpaying and that kind person would never invest in this city, so the article is just ridiculous.

**p69rrh51** · January-22-13, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

I completely disagree. If I'm looking for a bargain, I'll manage the construction myself and build new. Ya, if you use private government contractors that have a history of building public buildings, sure it may end up costing $10m-$15m. If I subbed the work myself and shopped around for building materials including recycled materials, I could get it built for under $700K with all the permits. Some contractors charge 10X what they are worth.

It's not a bargain because the kind of person who would buy a bargain could also build it himself if he couldn't find a bargain. Thus, it's not a bargain to the bargain hunter. It's only a bargain to a person who lives a lifestyle of overpaying and that kind person would never invest in this city, so the article is just ridiculous.

You have absolutely NO CLUE how that home is built you could not build the living room for $700K to the specs that house was built. Maybe with today's materials you could throw together a cheap imitation but you would never come close the the quality of the construction on your do it yourself budget! Answer me this on one item where would you find the Flint-Faience Tile just to replicate the front hall? They have been out of business for 80 years and there is nothing available short of expensive imported tiles that could match. I said to similar specs not the cheap shit we have available today.

**davewindsor** · January-22-13, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by p69rrh51

You have absolutely NO CLUE how that home is built you could not build the living room for $700K to the specs that house was built. Maybe with today's materials you could throw together a cheap imitation but you would never come close the the quality of the construction on your do it yourself budget! Answer me this on one item where would you find the Flint-Faience Tile just to replicate the front hall? They have been out of business for 80 years and there is nothing available short of expensive imported tiles that could match. I said to similar specs not the cheap shit we have available today.

Similar is the so called "cheap shit". I think it's absolutely crazy to spend a fortune on "Flint-Faience Tile" when I can find similar porcelain or ceramic tile made in Brazil or Mexico for a lot less. Utility wise there's no difference. It looks similar. Porcelain tile is porcelain tile. Hey, I can drop $1K on a single dress shirt at the Neiman Marcus store in Troy when I can something of similar quality for $35 elsewhere, but that's not my overpaying lifestyle. There is no reason from a quality standpoint to justify paying that much for a dress shirt. It's a nonsense, value added branded product. Hey, but waste your money by overpaying.

But, this is the City of Detroit, so you need to get a clue. I like big open spaces, but I'm not gonna waste money on silly tile or decorate my walls with $20m paintings when I can get a similar look with cheap replicas that are just as strong, reliable and visually appealing. So, you can keep your overpriced flatulent tile. It's no bargain to me or most people.

**p69rrh51** · January-22-13, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

Similar is the so called "cheap shit". I think it's absolutely crazy to spend a fortune on "Flint-Faience Tile" when I can find similar porcelain or ceramic tile made in Brazil or Mexico for a lot less. Utility wise there's no difference. It looks similar. Porcelain tile is porcelain tile. Hey, I can drop $1K on a single dress shirt at the Neiman Marcus store in Troy when I can something of similar quality for $35 elsewhere, but that's not my overpaying lifestyle. There's is no reason from a quality standpoint to justify paying that much for a dress shirt. It's a nonsense, value added branded product. Hey, but waste your money by overpaying.

But, this is the City of Detroit, so you need to get a clue. I like big open spaces, but I'm not gonna waste money on silly tile or decorate my walls with $20m paintings when I can get a similar look with cheap replicas that are just a strong, reliable and visually appealing. So, you can keep your overpriced flatulent tile. It's no bargain to me or most people.

You just answered your own question looks like the McMansions near 23 Mile suit you just fine. Have fun in your cookie cutter crappy home. For me give good quality every time. Also if you have a clue I know exceedingly more about the City of Detroit than you ever will!

**Cincinnati_Kid** · January-19-13, 02:13 PM

I did not even mention the cost of sending your kids to private schools, insuring your car [[after all you can't live in a mansion and drive a 10 year old Taurus)

Who says you can't drive a 10 year old car? Most people that live there do I bet. You have to cut something out of that budget, and the car would be the first choice. New cars cost more to insure in Detroit don't forget.

**p69rrh51** · January-22-13, 01:16 PM

Actually I can tell the difference between the cheap crap you use and the quality materials found in many of the homes around the city and not just in the historic districts. Right now many very good artisans can be had for very fair labor rates if you pay $200 an hour you are stupid. This will change as the economy improves[[get work done now while its less expensive).
Since you have no clue what I was describing-replicating a foyer that is appox. 30' x 15' to the ORIGINAL specification as well as the rest of the home never could be done for a measly $700K and you would definitely be on the list of never get a quote from contractors.

**davewindsor** · January-22-13, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by p69rrh51

Actually I can tell the difference between the cheap crap you use and the quality materials found in many of the homes around the city and not just in the historic districts. Right now many very good artisans can be had for very fair labor rates if you pay $200 an hour you are stupid. This will change as the economy improves[[get work done now while its less expensive).
Since you have no clue what I was describing-replicating a foyer that is appox. 30' x 15' to the ORIGINAL specification as well as the rest of the home never could be done for a measly $700K and you would definitely be on the list of never get a quote from contractors.

It won't change. People have been thinking the city would change in the past 50 years and it didn't and they lost their shirt.

I would never hire a crazy contractor like that so it would make no difference to me. I don't buy real estate if I can't see how it's gonna make me a good return on my investment. You remember the saying on what happens to a fool and his money?

**p69rrh51** · January-22-13, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

It won't change. People have been thinking the city would change in the past 50 years and it didn't and they lost their shirt.

I would never hire a crazy contractor like that so it would make no difference to me. I don't buy real estate if I can't see how it's gonna make me a good return on my investment. You remember the saying on what happens to a fool and his money?

Interesting how much money has your real estate made in the 4-5 years? Anyone who buys real estate thinking they are going to make money is just plain stupid. Yes there are those who make some money flipping properties quickly but from a long term investment real estate is a joke in REAL money terms. But then if you want to live in a hovel be my guest I will be quite comfortable in my palace! Last you cannot take it with you so you might as well enjoy it while you are here. I am on to more interesting discussions and will miss the last word you will have to put bore us with.

**davewindsor** · January-22-13, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by p69rrh51

Interesting how much money has your real estate made in the 4-5 years? Anyone who buys real estate thinking they are going to make money is just plain stupid. Yes there are those who make some money flipping properties quickly but from a long term investment real estate is a joke in REAL money terms. But then if you want to live in a hovel be my guest I will be quite comfortable in my palace! Last you cannot take it with you so you might as well enjoy it while you are here. I am on to more interesting discussions and will miss the last word you will have to put bore us with.

There's plenty of other things to enjoy and it makes me plenty. I buy real estate to rent out and sometimes sell if the price is right. It doesn't make me a dollar more in rent if I repair using overpriced antiques or same quality replicas. It looks decent. I don't live in hovels and I don't rent out hovels because hovels attract dead beats or don't get rented and I'm here to make money not put myself on the path to loose it all like yourself.

**bailey** · January-22-13, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

There's plenty of other things to enjoy and it makes me plenty. I buy real estate to rent out and sometimes sell if the price is right. It doesn't make me a dollar more in rent if I repair using overpriced antiques or same quality replicas. It looks decent. I don't live in hovels and I don't rent out hovels because hovels attract dead beats or don't get rented and I'm here to make money not put myself on the path to loose it all like yourself.

Well, then by that description of what you do and what your strategy is, you have zero credibility in your asssement of the home's, that are the subject of your disdain, relative "worth".

No one would restore a 10000 squr foot home to rent out. That would be flat out stupid. People buy these homes because of the materials and the old world craftmanship and they want to LIVE there. It's worth it to them.

Further, I have no idea where it is you live, but in my neighborhood, rentals command more money if they have Pewabic tiled fireplaces, original hard woods...etc. Not only do rentals command more money, homes for sale command a higher price if those "old world" elements are in them and not ripped out and replaced with the Home Depot version.

People know they can get joe schmo contractor to lay some ceramic on the cheap... however, there is a large market of people that do not want that. I don't understand why you are pretending that is not true.

You clearly deal in a different market. Which is fine, but in the end, its rules are inapplicable to the market for these homes.

**noise** · January-23-13, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by p69rrh51

Interesting how much money has your real estate made in the 4-5 years? Anyone who buys real estate thinking they are going to make money is just plain stupid. Yes there are those who make some money flipping properties quickly but from a long term investment real estate is a joke in REAL money terms. But then if you want to live in a hovel be my guest I will be quite comfortable in my palace! Last you cannot take it with you so you might as well enjoy it while you are here. I am on to more interesting discussions and will miss the last word you will have to put bore us with.

He's not boring me anymore than you are. You could probably make your unimportant point of view without the hostility. I know you're big on telling everyone that you know more than they do, but it would better serve you to prove it. Or at least do it artfully.