LeDuff: Answers, accountability lacking as more bodies fall in Detroit

**stasu1213** · January-05-13, 11:06 PM

any that what to take up land in the city pick one

**DetroitPlanner** · January-05-13, 11:24 PM

I don't think Bing's answer is a cop-out. Its reality. The culture needs to change. There is only so much the police can do. Cops can only respond to issues and unfortunately we are at a place where there are more issues than cops. What is needed is to reduce the opportunity for crime. That means more folks ratting on the bad guys, hanging out on porches, being the eyes and ears.

**Richard** · January-06-13, 12:37 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

I don't think Bing's answer is a cop-out. Its reality. The culture needs to change. There is only so much the police can do. Cops can only respond to issues and unfortunately we are at a place where there are more issues than cops. What is needed is to reduce the opportunity for crime. That means more folks ratting on the bad guys, hanging out on porches, being the eyes and ears.

I agree ,and to me he is doing two things ,one he is chastising people for not helping and kinda saying "hey you had enough yet? "

and second there are groups of mayors that are starting to form up with DOJ based on the correlation of reduced gov funding and a rise in hard crimes.

I have been with a few neighborhood organizations before and usually what we would do is work with LEO and get a cell phone number of the officers that patrolled regularly,a lot do really care but their hands are tied so if you bring it to a more personal level it helps sometimes. Especially on response times.They do need your help.

**internet_pseudopod** · January-06-13, 02:05 AM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

From article:

Chief Logan has promised a departmental reorganization come February, but don't expect much from a guy who said: "If I had a thousand more police officers in the city of Detroit, the way things are now I don't know what kind of impact that would have, so I'm not asking for more police officers."

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/20...all-in-detroit

Naah, he's not asking for more cops because there is work to be done and that work requires an out of control crime rate.

**corktownyuppie** · January-06-13, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

any that what to take up land in the city pick one

Take up land in the city? What does this mean? Corporations don't need Bing to buy land in the city. This isn't downtown Manhattan. If you, me, or any corporation want to buy land in the city, they're practically giving it away

Here's a link to over 2,500 pieces of property in the city for under $50,000.

If you think that corporations are trying to take city land, I think there is some misunderstanding about what's going on. The problem isn't that corporations are trying to take. The problem is that Detroit has way, way, way too much run down property and that no one wants to buy it and fix it up.

Here's a link to all the vacant land for sale in Manhattan. This is what it looks like in a place where people, investors, and corporations want to take up land. There is none left.

Here's a link to all the condos available in Manhattan. You'll see listings for around $4,000-$5,000. In Detroit we see that and you think, "Oh, I can buy this run down house for $4,000-$5,000" and that actually means $4,000-$5,000 per month.

No, the problem is not that the corporations want to take up land. The problem is that we have way too much shitty land, and no one wants it.

**rex** · January-06-13, 09:22 AM

they dont have money for a big police force, Bing & the interim police chief are probably right. Its not all on the police and another 1000 officers probably wouldnt make that much of a difference. At least not commensurate with the associated costs[[which Detroit doesn't have to spend). Police dont so much prevent crime as they ::hopefully:: catch criminals after the fact so they cant repeatedly break the law. A diminished dept isn't going to be able to do that as well.
B.Napoleon is probably going to run on the crime is out of control we need another 1000 officers platform. From a fundamental standpoint it makes sense. Bad crime = more cops. It just doesn't really work that well.

**night-timer** · January-06-13, 10:47 AM

The sad thing is, what I am writing here could be a suitable reply to any number of threads that appear on this forum. The level of pessimism and worry is overwhelming and shows a feeling of despair and a lack of hope. What a tragedy that Detroit is labeled a blighted warzone whose residents see no hope. You'd think anywhere even remotely 'liveable' would have to be a million light years distant, yet political leaders can manage to provide safe/prosperous/white/suburban/family neighborhoods just a few miles away.

**canuck** · January-06-13, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by night-timer

The sad thing is, what I am writing here could be a suitable reply to any number of threads that appear on this forum. The level of pessimism and worry is overwhelming and shows a feeling of despair and a lack of hope. What a tragedy that Detroit is labeled a blighted warzone whose residents see no hope. You'd think anywhere even remotely 'liveable' would have to be a million light years distant, yet political leaders can manage to provide safe/prosperous/white/suburban/family neighborhoods just a few miles away.

Enough money for a far-flung country deemed strategic. 'nuff said fo' Detroit.

**Strohs Brewery** · January-06-13, 12:24 PM

I hope one day Charlie will wade into the deep end and not just bark orders from poolside. Detroit is drowning, and Leduff's describing the water.

http://www.hark.com/clips/dztjzwsbjh...bing-the-water

**coracle** · January-06-13, 03:59 PM

Those "...safe/prosperous/white/suburban/family neighborhoods just a few miles away." are not provided by political leaders night-timer; they are provided by the people that live in them without the expectation that somebody should do it for them and are built on decades of self-reliance. They automatically understand how to lead individual lives for the benefit of the whole.The political leaders might lead them like a conductor leads a Orchestra but it's the people that carry the load. No political leader could lead them if they weren't responsive; it would become an anarchy.

**night-timer** · January-06-13, 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by coracle

Those "...safe/prosperous/white/suburban/family neighborhoods just a few miles away." are not provided by political leaders night-timer; they are provided by the people that live in them without the expectation that somebody should do it for them and are built on decades of self-reliance. They automatically understand how to lead individual lives for the benefit of the whole.The political leaders might lead them like a conductor leads a Orchestra but it's the people that carry the load. No political leader could lead them if they weren't responsive; it would become an anarchy.

Agreed, but it's possible... my point was also the feeling of hopeless despair, juxtaposed by relative sunshine a few miles away.

"No political leader could lead them if they weren't responsive; it would become an anarchy" - I will have to use that line at my sports club when immature players [[who I am team manager for) refuse to respect long-established rules, other people and club values.

**laphoque** · January-07-13, 03:16 AM

I don't feel as bad about the murder rate as I do about the rate of unsolved murders. These killings could be at the hands of a small group of people. No one will know why they happened except the crooks. The most practicable first step to getting a handle on this is to begin solving the murders.

Robbing is not a cultural problem, it's a job of last resort. The state did impose limits on welfare checks. We like to pretend man is superior to beasts. Leave men deprived and starved and see how long before we remember our roots.

The city does need a better organized and managed police force. It also needs jobs, food, justice, and dignity.

**Honky Tonk** · January-07-13, 03:37 AM

Originally Posted by laphoque

I don't feel as bad about the murder rate as I do about the rate of unsolved murders. These killings could be at the hands of a small group of people. No one will know why they happened except the crooks. The most practicable first step to getting a handle on this is to begin solving the murders.

Robbing is not a cultural problem, it's a job of last resort. The state did impose limits on welfare checks. We like to pretend man is superior to beasts. Leave men deprived and starved and see how long before we remember our roots.

The city does need a better organized and managed police force. It also needs jobs, food, justice, and dignity.

What BS. Have you read some of these murder circumstances? Guys were starved for leather jackets? Sneakers? Had nothing to give and were executed anyway? Maybe your trying to make yourself feel better by justifying these kind of actions?

**laphoque** · January-07-13, 03:57 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

What BS. Have you read some of these murder circumstances? Guys were starved for leather jackets? Sneakers? Had nothing to give and were executed anyway? Maybe your trying to make yourself feel better by justifying these kind of actions?

I mean, we don't know who the murderers are. It often seems like they are teenagers. I'm not trying to justify these actions. It's just that civilization is expensive and this state and this metro seem to be more interested in cutting taxes than growing places.

**laphoque** · January-07-13, 04:07 AM

Also if these point & shoot robberies are done by teenagers they are probably not from families of any means and they probably do not have many business prospects outside of the apparent $100 investment in an AK [[as opposed to the thousands of dollars for a car to get to work, college, etc.).

**Zacha341** · January-07-13, 05:26 AM

Point well taken. Sure there's poverty and lack but some of this stealing and robbing is simply for 'sport'! And the lust for materialism.

The mentality of taking the unearned is about values in relationship to GREED and envy justified in some cases by the 'cause' of need.

Not just or necessarily 'need'.

Was Petty Officer's Terry Hills shoes removed after he was murdered to feed someone?

I don't think so....

These criminals know it's tight out here and if someone else will justify their actions for them all the better! They'll ride that train if offered!!!

Having been a victim of theft I know it was really not about someone being hungry, it was about opportunity and my letting myself become a 'mark' by not being as careful as I usually am.

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

What BS. Have you read some of these murder circumstances? Guys were starved for leather jackets? Sneakers? Had nothing to give and were executed anyway? Maybe your trying to make yourself feel better by justifying these kind of actions?

**Honky Tonk** · January-07-13, 05:27 AM

Originally Posted by laphoque

Also if these point & shoot robberies are done by teenagers they are probably not from families of any means and they probably do not have many business prospects outside of the apparent $100 investment in an AK [[as opposed to the thousands of dollars for a car to get to work, college, etc.).

Or else they just plain don't give a crap. The people they murdered weren't from families of means, in fact they were from the same "'hood", so what's the difference?

**Zacha341** · January-07-13, 05:33 AM

It's many factors fueling the 'crab in a barrel' thinking. No one can get out or over to do better as someone is pulling you down, for the envy of what you have -- or just to take your life just because.

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Or else they just plain don't give a crap. The people they murdered weren't from families of means, in fact they were from the same "'hood", so what's the difference?

**laphoque** · January-07-13, 06:09 AM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

These criminals know it's tight out here and if someone else will justify their actions for them all the better! They'll ride that train if offered!!!

Having been a victim of theft I know it was really not about someone being hungry, it was about opportunity and my letting myself become a 'mark' by not being as careful as I usually am.

Say you had a rich family and poor family's babies swapped at Hutzel. The baby who is raised by the poor family will be more likely to kill for shoes than the baby who is raised by the rich family simply because the rich family will buy the baby shoes. Buying shoes at a store is much easier than robbing them from someone.

I do not think that killing is a civilized way in today's world to obtain shoes. However, I do think that it was a much more normal way to obtain things back in the day. Our history is filled with violent conquest. And these crimes will happen so long as there is a large number of people who live below what is likely to be a measureable level of poverty. Why don't the citizens of the US, Michigan, and Detroit pay to keep everyone above that level of poverty? Why do we think that we're free if we have to arm ourselves out of worry that somebody will try to shoot us for our smartphone?

Although humans are greedy, they won't stop being that way because you tell them that.

**Zacha341** · January-07-13, 06:23 AM

^^^ So instead of telling 'them' not be a greedy we can pay them to be cool, calmed and off our backs perhaps? GREAT! How much will be needed? Who will be the administrating said redistribution? Will there be a cost of living allowance... is the redistribution pay retroactive to say 2012 or 11?

Well, I feel you present the argument for the 'redistribution[[ist) dream' relative to mans view of social justice which usually attempts to fix things from the outside-in... hmmmm.

We are seeing this being championed on several levels - including on the more messy version applied in the 'streets'. We saw a great deal of redistribution or attempts therein over the last week.

There are poor people WHO CHOOSE NOT TO STEAL AND MURDER... and I celebrate that 'choice' heartily lest we all find some form of justification to do what we want, when we choose.

Of course the economy is a factor but you CANNOT raise a persons standards and values by just giving them things! IT will and cannot ever be enough!

**laphoque** · January-07-13, 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

^^^ So instead of telling 'them' not be a greedy we can pay them to be cool and calmed and off our backs perhaps?

Pay everyone to the point where crime is innoculated. Money could be a crime vaccine. It could be a way to make sure that it is easier for everyone to go to school and get a job than kill for stuff.

Right now, our prisons are emergency rooms where we house the most critical patients. If we did the primary care up front, in the community, then they could become much less important and everyone could be better off.

Right now, we are not paying for civilization. We are paying to clean up the blood.

**Zacha341** · January-07-13, 06:46 AM

I appreciate your comments, I do... But in short I don't think you can PAY for civilization though. There's no historical precedent of success doing so.

Example: If a person covets and really wants YOUR Ipad [[a non-necessity relative to core survival), they do not want a $32.88 [[or whatever 'sustainable' amount) government voucher to NOT WANT IT!!

In the heat of the moment if they want your life because of a supposed slight, mental illness or your refusal to submit to crime, or raping, no amount of money given or offered will stop that!

No bureaucrat will be standing by with a vaccine-level check or cash no more than we find a police officer available currently.

**laphoque** · January-07-13, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

I appreciate your comments, I do... But in short I don't think you can PAY for civilization though.

I think that's what the other industrialized countries do. They pay more in taxes for services and as a result they have societies that are much less violent. To grossly simplify it all.

**Honky Tonk** · January-07-13, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by laphoque

I think that's what the other industrialized countries do. They pay more in taxes for services and as a result they have societies that are much less violent.

Why don't you do some research into how much is being spent already in this country, state, and city, on providing services for the needy? Some take advantage of these services and turn their lives around, some don't bother, and continue their life of crime. You're ASSUMING all crimes are because of lack of material goods, I disagree. I will be the first one to "feed the hungry", but murdering someone because they have nothing to give you, or murdering them after they've given you what you wanted, that has NOTHING to do with being "needy".

**laphoque** · January-07-13, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

I will be the first one to "feed the hungry", but murdering someone because they have nothing to give you, or murdering them after they've given you what you wanted, that has NOTHING to do with being "needy".

Sure. Most able-bodied adults are not starving. And most people certainly don't muder. However, there would be fewer muders and fewer crimes if we had a more robust welfare system.

The GDP & productivity are still rising. The wages and welfare among the poorest in this country are stagnant or declining. There is no replacement job in sight for those low skill workers who once filled these plants. The US is tending to wrecklessly increase the workweek instead of shortening it to allow more people to be employed. We can afford to put more people on welfare. It would result in greater prosperity and safety if we did. It would reduce poverty and increase the likelihood that these kids are able to go to school instead of having to find a way to make it to the detriment of their schoolwork.

It has done this in all the other countries that it's been implimented in. The US spends less than 3% of GDP on this. Most other countries spend more like 8%. They have reaped enormous societal benefits from this. We argue about welfare queens and forget the names of the murder victims.